*Carbonum and Bronto Hide are good. . .but where next?*

[secondkenlon]

That's an intriguing suggestion.

*hmm*

[Darkbane]

Isn't it now... for rare quality sort of armour, I like

I still think some armour types should be makeable with rarer mob drops (especially from unique mobs), but these should be no better as armour, merely look special.

[secondkenlon]

As it stands now, Nano armor is inferior to the other high-end armors for all
professions but MPs. The near total lack of Int and Psy buffs leaves Nano
armor wearers with lagging ACs and no bonus to show for it. And the cloaks are
utterly useless. This is unfortunate, as Nano armor is the second coolest
looking armor in game.

Nano armor should be a better choice for nanomages and nanoformula heavy
classes. But how to achieve this?

The simple method would be to add skill or ability bonuses. a boost of 50 to
all nano-skills at QL 200 would be very nice, right?

Wrong. We do not need to add to the buff-inflation that is pushing FC into
(misguided) level locking.

Instead, we should take our cue from some rather underused items in the game:
The belt deck upgrade items.
Computer Deck Range Increaser.
Hardcore CPU Upgrade.
NCU Coolant Sink.
Nano Formula Recompiler.

These are all quite nice items, but very underutilized, in my experience, due
to the fact that we can never get enough NCU space.

So, how to put the lime in the coconut and shake it all up?
(Lime in the coconut and shake it all up! Lime in the coconut and shake it all
up! *smacks self*)


Build an "Activated Connective Matrix" (as mentioned in my previous post).
Combine this with the deck upgrade. This produces an "Activated *deck component*.
Description mentions that "This item is now wired for addition to some other piece
of equipment. This is a tradeskill item.".

Next we need to prep the armor. Two possibilities spring to mind here: Either
you hack open the Nano Armor's exoskeleton (Hacking tool, B&E) or we do it in
a more controlled way (Dunno, need ideas.)

This turns the Nano Armor into "Destructured Nano Armor" (hey, I'm running out
of name ideas here, cut me some slack). It is either no longer useable as armor
or has all of it's ACs cut in half.

Then add the "Activated *deck component*" to the "Destructured Nano Armor".
This would produce different things, depending on the upgrade added.
Computer Deck Range Increaser: "Enhanced Nano Armor, Range".
Hardcore CPU Upgrade: "Enhanced Nano Armor, CPU".
NCU Coolant Sink: "Enhanced Nano Armor, Supercooled".
Nano Formula Recompiler: "Enhanced Nano Armor, Recompiler".

However, since the deck upgrades require Comp Lit skill to use, so must Enhanced
Nano Armor. (Gotta keep it fair.) I'd recommend around 2/3 of the comp lit required
to use the actual belt upgrade. So the Recompiler armor would require about 530 Comp
Lit at QL 200.

The bonuses on these should be structured so that wearing a full suit of Enhanced
Nano Armor provides the same bonuses as using a deck component. (IE, full set of
QL 200 Recompiler armor provides 400 nano init.)

[gnuman]

Thumbs up, awesome suggestions here.

[_____________Flyhard]

Awefully goos suggestion. /me waits for his hacked nano armor....

[______________Tarage]

Super bump to this thread. I can't believe i've passed it by so many times.

Would also be nice if Clanners could hack Omni-Pol armor using B&E, and armor making devices and skills, to make an equally good Clan version of the armor.

[Sean-Roach]

You might want to keep in mind that there are about 7 slots for most armor, followed by shoulder slots, a neck slot, an I don't remember what on the other side, (the picture I referred to instead of logging in has a flashlight there), two wrist, and two finger slots.

There are 4 deck components you mentioned. Which three armor slots don't get deck components? Or are you saying I could walk around with the advantages of 7 hardcore NCU upgrades if I wanted?

Could make the armor reflect melee. "plasma charged armor: This armor is charged with a 'skin' of energy. Anyone disrupting it, as with a weapon, receives a reminder that this person is hands off" Have you ever wanted to wire a cattle prod to your jacket? If you don't know what a cattle prod is, how about a stun gun? In fact the breathing space would be perfect for this "modification".

How about tying in a cloaking device? antigrav module?

How about a helmet that reduces all tradeskills, and trap-disarm, B&E, and perception, but buffed all the combat skills by 66% of the reduction? A real helmet of Mars. Turn a crafter into a warrior.

That's what I want to see. Just in time for this game to get metaphysical. Boots of Mercury. Flight and a pretty good run-speed boost. (Then we can talk a reflect melee shield, and go hunting medusas.)

[_______________Wibol]

Give me more stuff to make FC!

Hard and soft ppe already collecting a little dust in my bag

[secondkenlon]

Originally posted by Sean Roach
You might want to keep in mind that there are about 7 slots for most armor, followed by shoulder slots, a neck slot, an I don't remember what on the other side, (the picture I referred to instead of logging in has a flashlight there), two wrist, and two finger slots.

There are 4 deck components you mentioned. Which three armor slots don't get deck components? Or are you saying I could walk around with the advantages of 7 hardcore NCU upgrades if I wanted?

Gack, no!

The bonuses on these should be structured so that wearing a full suit of Enhanced
Nano Armor provides the same bonuses as using a deck component. (IE, full set of
QL 200 Recompiler armor provides 400 nano init.)


So, for example, each piece could provide 58 nano init. Or the bonuses could vary, based on the size of the piece of armor. Or each of the deck upgrades could be biased towards a particular part of the body:
Most of the nano init bonus being in the chest, range increase mainly in the gloves, CPU/Nano cost decrease in the helmet, coolant sink/interrupt suppression in the pants. This would let players assemble a good "bit of everything" suit or totally max out the capabilities in one direction.

[secondkenlon]

Originally posted by Tarage
Super bump to this thread. I can't believe i've passed it by so many times.

Would also be nice if Clanners could hack Omni-Pol armor using B&E, and armor making devices and skills, to make an equally good Clan version of the armor.

Ahem:

Re-read my first post. Nyah. :P

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sean Roach
You might want to keep in mind that there are about 7 slots for most armor, followed by shoulder slots, a neck slot, an I don't remember what on the other side, (the picture I referred to instead of logging in has a flashlight there), two wrist, and two finger slots.

There are 4 deck components you mentioned. Which three armor slots don't get deck components? Or are you saying I could walk around with the advantages of 7 hardcore NCU upgrades if I wanted?

Could make the armor reflect melee. "plasma charged armor: This armor is charged with a 'skin' of energy. Anyone disrupting it, as with a weapon, receives a reminder that this person is hands off" Have you ever wanted to wire a cattle prod to your jacket? If you don't know what a cattle prod is, how about a stun gun? In fact the breathing space would be perfect for this "modification".

How about tying in a cloaking device? antigrav module?

How about a helmet that reduces all tradeskills, and trap-disarm, B&E, and perception, but buffed all the combat skills by 66% of the reduction? A real helmet of Mars. Turn a crafter into a warrior.

That's what I want to see. Just in time for this game to get metaphysical. Boots of Mercury. Flight and a pretty good run-speed boost. (Then we can talk a reflect melee shield, and go hunting medusas.)

And my fear is that if we say we want the ability to make all new armor sorts, it'll take forever to get those armor types (the devs have to have time to figure out what attributes would be balanced) and we'd never get around to making existing armor types.

New items prolly have to go through some long process, prolly involving viking battle axes and a lot of mead to get approval . And then there's the actual coding time to implement it. Where as right now, there are tons of completed armors types which lack any type of tradeskill process whatsoever.

I also think people maybe overcomplicating things on the development side of things. Take plasteel armor, for example. How hard would it be to:

1. Create an item similiar to the precious metal reclaimer and make it useable on Robot junk to yield Raw Plasteel.
2. Make the Raw Plasteel able to be combined with a Shining/Bright/Faded Nanocluster of Cold Protection to yeild Raw Chilled Plasteel.
3. Make the Raw Chilled Plasteel combinable with the HSR - Etch and Sketch <armor location> to yield Etched Pattern for Chilled Plasteel <armor location>
4. Make the Etched Pattern for Chilled Plasteel <armor> combinable with the Mass Relocating Robot (Shape Hard Armor) to yeild Chilled Plasteel Armor <armor location>

And I checked the prices on the nanoclusters. A QL 1 Faded Nanocluster of Cold Protection has a value of 350, according to Antiguardians. A QL 1 Bright Nanocluster of Cold Protection has a value of 700 according to Antiguardians. And a shining cluster is 1650. The most expensive piece of chilled plasteel body armor is QL 1 Inferior Chilled Plasteel Body Armor at a value of 1100. While the gloves cost 275 as the least expensive. Depending on how they want to balance out the costs, pick whichever cluster they want (I'd suggest the Faded to balance out the time factor of aquiring the parts/getting someone to assemble it).

Wanna get fancy? To make Sekutek Chilled Plasteel Armor, make sure the raw chilled plasteel can accept another component, hopefully one that can be pulled out of something else (like a skilled person using a screwdriver on high QL Robot junk pulls temperature regulator out of it).

Edit PS
To make Heated Plasteel Armor, swap the nanocluster of cold protection for the nanocluster of fire protection. The sealed weapons recepticles show it's possible to make items that accept different components yeilding different items. And items like the Nano Programming Interface show it's possible to have wearable items that give bonuses and have those items as components in tradeskill processes (NCU Hackers Interface).

[secondkenlon]

Making armor types with implants seems simpler, but I doubt it actually would be.


Making new components/items/nanos seems to be EASIER for Funcom than modifying old ones. Why this is, I dunno, but their steadfast refusal to upgrade old weapons (instead, making new ones) seems to show this.

If nanoclusters were used in making armor, the programmers would have to modify the item database, and I doubt they'll do it.

Plus, if nano-clusters were used, the logical skill to install them would be nano-programming and there is already enough call for that skill in the game.

All the others need some good uses.

[Sean-Roach]

Before I start, I should make something perfectly clear. Everything below this line is rank speculation.

Okay, unless I miss my guess, items don't involve any programming at all, just some database work. So, making an item equipable for one buff, and making it an ingredient only means it's in two databases instead of one.

Think of the process from the perspective of the machine, and not the perspective of the player.

Your perspective.
You combine two objects, and get a third. You might get to keep the tool.

Machines perspective.
Player applies item1 to item2. check the database on item1 and sure enough, there's an entry that goes item1+ item2 -> item3. Take item1, and item 2, provide item3. BUT WAIT, THIS entry actually goes item1 + item2 -> item3 & Item1. So STILL take both the initial items, but give them item1 "back", and a new item.

Actually it probably goes something like this,
item1(n)+item2(n(.5)) ->item3(n).

Or maybe
IF 2m >= n (item1(m)+item2(n)->item3(n), item1(m))
If the tool QL is at least half of the QL of the item, replace both with a new item at the QL of the item, and a tool of the original QL of the tool.

At this point my speculation gets a bit carried away as I try to re-invent a robust and flexible system to handle the tradeskill system.

The problem is probably indoing the authoring, not programming, and then balancing the things. How much is too difficult? How much is too easy? What should the cost be at each step? Also remember that these aren't isolated circumstances, (well, the QL1 only nano programming interface is probably an isolated circumstance), so you can't just say xxx cred sounds about right, you have to say (xxx * QL) +modifier sounds about right and works for a QL 1 item, and a QL 200 item.

Also, each piece has to be described, (and you know we'd jump down their throats if they deigned to leave so much as a TYPO in the description, much less a flat out error,) and either tied to an existing image and 3D model, or a new image, (and maybe 3D model), has to be designed from scratch.

The reason they probably prefer doing new stuff, is fear of having two items in the database that result from the same recipe, only the first would be consulted, or they might be concerned that they might suddenly gimp a whole swath of guns, or overpower them. Either way imbalancing gameplay. In the first case, the owners of that weapon complain, in the second, everyone else complains.

Again, everything above this line is merely my speculation.

[secondkenlon]

What we really need is to know how the game sees each item (is the tradeskill nature of an item encoded into it's database entry, or into the database entry for the recipe? etc, etc)

Then we could know what they can and cannot do, and make useful suggestions.


*waits to get shot down by Cz or Cos*

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Kenlon
Making armor types with implants seems simpler, but I doubt it actually would be.


Making new components/items/nanos seems to be EASIER for Funcom than modifying old ones. Why this is, I dunno, but their steadfast refusal to upgrade old weapons (instead, making new ones) seems to show this.

If nanoclusters were used in making armor, the programmers would have to modify the item database, and I doubt they'll do it.

Plus, if nano-clusters were used, the logical skill to install them would be nano-programming and there is already enough call for that skill in the game.

All the others need some good uses.

Problem is though people keep demanding new items to make. I used to be an admin on a lpmud and dealt specifically with balance there. New content is usually hard to get approval for and is usually a long process. New items have to be evaluated against current availible items and against future development plans before any even begins to code them (or at least I hope FC does this).

Adaptions on already implemented content are usually easier to get done. And since we're discussing a process to make already existing items and not new items themselves, it should be a 1 time debate over the balance of the tradeskill process. And once the rules are set (ie: armor with xxx value should cost yyy in components to make), it never has to be revisited again

[_______________Wibol]

Who wants to make plasteel? it sucks

leather
forest pol
desert pol
energized
cyber

Its all third class junk

We all dump to vendor already except when poor at low levels

just like nobody wants to make all those crappy weapons

1 150 (100) at q200 and stuff

hit with 11 bullets
you FA veteran enforcer for 108 points

joke weapons and armor

waste of time

give us stuff worth making:

dragon well duh good but only armor is uber
carbonum yes good
bronto not bad

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Wibol
Who wants to make plasteel? it sucks

leather
forest pol
desert pol
energized
cyber

Its all third class junk

We all dump to vendor already except when poor at low levels

just like nobody wants to make all those crappy weapons

1 150 (100) at q200 and stuff

hit with 11 bullets
you FA veteran enforcer for 108 points

joke weapons and armor

waste of time

give us stuff worth making:

dragon well duh good but only armor is uber
carbonum yes good
bronto not bad

It's all third class junk to us at high levels because we can take on mobs for uber armors. But there is room for this stuff at low to mid level and it promotes people to creating tradeskill character who you need to make the high level gear as well.

Plus as I said, the armors in the game have already gone through whatever approval process FC has for items (they better have an approval system cause even the muds I was a coder/admin on in the 90s had content approval systems).

Also I think you drastically overlook the appeal of being able to get QL xxx items when you want them. I know I was considering using MCS with my trader because of that. If they created some bow tradeskill weapons, I'd definately make my own bows.

And finally, your thinking leans very heavily towards a mentality which usually end up working against tradeskill systems. So long as the items that you want are the uber items, developers tend to do everything in their power to control how many of those items can be made. So think to yourself: Do I want a tradeskill system that will be loaded rare item drops, unique mobs, and heavily defended areas?

[_______________Wibol]

If it costs even half what it costs to make carb those lower and mid levels cant afford anyway

Not to mention ip cost of skills

ip is so tight it would be lucky if 70 trader could make 40 armor without being paper tissue for yellow mob

Discs need to not be rare as they are now for sure!

I never even considered tradeskill until ip reset

No trader should try hard until 160 at least

Engys can try earlier maybe but hard to get levels in mission when bots so dumb and you have no evades

Outdoors bad at 100 when engy can try tradeskills

So still ends up 150 or more for serious tradeskill

Leveling without mobs not fun

Getting sets is not hard now either
Lots of people just blitz for a suit
I remember when it was a big deal if you blitzed a 35 omni pol or 75 elite
Now its not

You can call it mentality but its common sense
Its why noone over level 10 uses 3/4ths of weapons out there
Armor at least only has 6 skills to choose from and something better than nothing

Tradeskill armor should be left to good types

Id rather have no new armor and put coders on the 5000 bugs than able to make crappy armor already in game

Also fixing bugged items should always be first before making crap armor tradeskill crafting!

So many guns have melee init and such

[secondkenlon]

Originally posted by Wibol
If it costs even half what it costs to make carb those lower and mid levels cant afford anyway

Carbonums is rather special armor. (enormous ACs and NCU bonuses.) It should be more expensive to make than normal armor.

Discs need to not be rare as they are now for sure!

No kidding. They should be purchasable in shops, frankly.

I never even considered tradeskill until ip reset

This might give you the clue that you aren't really part of the intended audience for these changes. There are people out there who, even with the broken state of tradeskills today, have invested plenty of time and IP in them. That's who these changes are for.

TOPIC JUMP:

Its why noone over level 10 uses 3/4ths of weapons out there
Armor at least only has 6 skills to choose from and something better than nothing

The reason I decided to tackle armopr crafting before proposing a weapon rebalance is that armor is simple. Requirements vs ACs.

Guns are much more complex, especially since FC won't tell us how the init formulas and the special recharge time works.

I would, however, love to see patch notes like this:

15.X:
Focus: Weapon rebalancing.

Forget adding anything else, just devote a full patch cycle to making all the weapon types useful (melee energy, anyone? Rifle/Burst? Grenade? Piercing (other than Claws)? Pure AR attack rating weapons? Heavy Weapons? Shotgun/Burst?)

Just doing that would rock! (And the ensuing arguments about "What weapon is the best *now*" would liven up my life, especially if Funcom took care to make sure that there are many viable QL 200 weapons. . . )

[______________Ferria]

A: Frist make the trade skill items in game work , id say atleast 80 percent of the newer weapons both melee and ranged do not work.

B: make the PPPEs easier to obtain heck put them in shops for 10 mill each , but sticking them on q 60ish boss mobs is the wrong place . Not to mention the uber rarity of the items allow 1-2 percent of the people that can actually use them to have them .

C: After A&B are done then try adding new items.

Ferria
165 engineer
OmniTek