Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Warlock



So I ask the question again - what do you think Engineers actually do/have?

Put in the most simple terms possible:

Engineers are a pet class with the best attack pets,
and are also the second best at tradeskills.

Traders are the best tradeskill class
with skill-swapping and minor support capabilites.

Pick one. Your choice. We all have/had that choice.

That's the game.
It's not up to you how you think it should've been.
The game has exisiting rules.
If you agree to play, you agree to those rules.
That goes for every game ever.
Why do you think AO should be different?

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Soyuz
I'll also direct your attention to this thread, which demonstrates the ungodly IP cost of keeping your pet up to speed, even compared to other pet classes.

LOL

Trust me,
you do not want to compare Engineer IP costs to Trader IP costs.

but that is not what this thread is about.

Traders > Engineers at tradeskills.
That is just how the game works.
If a year ago, Engineers > Traders at tradeskills,
I would be an Engineer right now.

But it would be very unfair for Funcom to change that this late into the game.
So accept the rules as is,
instead of trying to steal the reason why Traders chose to be Traders.

There's nothing else the engineer class is good at. Can you at least admit there's a problem here?

of course!
My point is not that Engineers shouldnt get more!
Engineers desperately need some serious love/fixes.
But you dont get to be the BEST at tradeskills.
That title will always belong to Traders.

Tho you did forget to add 'Beacon Warp'.
That is one of the best nanos in the game IMHO.
And that, in many peoples opinion, should have gone to Fixers.

I admit I havent thought much about what engies should get.
Definately those kami bots. And what if you could build some
other form of non-nano robots? You are primarily a pet class.
What if you could make smaller battlebots that you could sell
to other players. heh. Noone else can do that.
(give non-pet classes pets)
They could be permanent until killed, and at that point
depending on cost to produce, would need to be either
replaced or repaired by an engineer.
They shouldnt do much damage, to avoid balance issues,
but it would be cool. (or at least give others more sympathy
towards pathing issues) Would be fun in the arena.
Especially if you could really customize them or at least had
many different recipies. Maybe this would just be for fun.
It could also be a much-needed money-sink

I would also like it if Engineers could build/summon temporary
stationary guns like those at outposts. Or other forms of 'traps'.
What about landmines with proximity detection?
Might get engies more involved in PvP.

:shrug:
these are all just late-at-night out-of-my-ass ideas.

But Traders must maintain their position as the best at production for sale/profit.
(that just means weapons/armor/tradeskill-only stuff)

And, yeah, tradeskill still need much improvement.
And I want to earn decent XP for it.
I dont care if tradeskills were exploited in other games.
Tradeskills in AO dont work the same way.
Besides, if someone wants to spend a hundred million creds
personally financing their own leveling, then I have no problem with that.

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
Engineers are a pet class with the best attack pets

I beg to differ. We are now described by Funcom as having the best tanking pet. However, even this is dubious, since the assertion seems to rest solely on the basis that our pets have the most hitpoints. The MP's attack pet does more damage, which means that it has a much better chance of holding aggro than the engineer's bot does, even though it doesn't last as long. As I said a post or two back, an engineer can pull aggro away from a bot doing twice as much damage as the engineer himself can. How much value is there in a tank that can't hold aggro?

The MP also has nukes, roots etc. to make himself useful for a team. The Trader has half-decent combat capabilities, plus roots, buffs etc. The engineer has a buffline no-one wants and a pet that doesn't do its job in combat. Let's be clear on this - most Engineers regard the bot as one of the profession's problems, not one of its (non-existent) strong points.

I agree that Traders don't deserve another nerf. I also agree that giving Engineers a tradeskill buff line is a lousy solution at best, since it then cuts Traders out of the loop in the same way that Engineers are now excluded. All that does is shift the problem onto another profession, rather than solving it. What I'm looking for is some solution that makes both Traders and Engineers viable as tradeskill classes.

If that's not what you're looking for, whether you're an Engineer or a Trader, then you're not contributing to the debate. On the other hand, if that is what you'd like to see (two viable classes instead of one) then I'd like to hear from you.

Cheers,

~R~

[Aqua]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Krabbus
Traders is the only profession in the game that have Computer Literacy buff, and they have it for one reason - to get better prices in shops.

LOL yeah and buffing my comp lit by 55 points makes the price go up by about 1k. I think you all should play a trader instead of looking at their stats on AO-Baser

~aqua

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
(...) My point is not that Engineers shouldnt get more!
Engineers desperately need some serious love/fixes.
But you dont get to be the BEST at tradeskills.
That title will always belong to Traders. (...)

Ok, but you seem to forget one part, what is the part for the engineers? What should they do?

Since traders have the good buffs and are better than engineers can't FC introduce new tradeskills that engineers is good at without making it engineer only... fixers is good at disamble clusters from implants because it need high break & entry, also good at modifing tank armor... traders are good at every other tradeskills because of their buffs... engineers at not best in any of these things, and can't be best either, because engineers doesn't have a keyskills that others don't have. Only solution to make engineers good in a specific area is to make it engineer only.

What do you think about this "unhappy trader", make traders good at massproduction such as nanocrystal creation, weaponsmith, jewellery and so on but let engineers be good at modifing all kind of weapons (change their stats) - if traders want to be able to this too but let engineers be best at it FC have to give engineers a weaponsmith buff that is bigger than traders or make it easier for an engineer to use the tool.

We can't forget the engineers part, they should be good at engineering and doing special work but there isn't anything special about engineers, they are not good at anything...

1. Engineers have the best AC buff (nope, traders have it, even when it last 3 min, and it also decrease mobs AC)
2. Engineers have the best pet (nope, MP have much better pets, and are much better tanks thanks to healpet)
3. Engineers is best in tradeskillcosts (yes, but traders have it much better here because of the buffs)
4. Engineers have good reflectshields (yes, but soldiers shield is much better)
5. Engineers are going to have Kamikaze (this could be good if there wasn't for the 1 min recharge)
6. Engineers have the slayer transference (this is the best buff in game, but it doesn't make engineer a good martial artist)
7. Engineers have the best pistol/grenade buff in game (jupp, but agents can cast this more easily than engineers)
8. Engineers have good debuff auras (ehm, they are dead before you find out if they have a shield running)
9. Engineers have beacon warp (only good when someone want to save before entering boss room, noone dies at higher level, it's useless, but it's pretty nice at lower levels)
10. As you can see I'm a bit bored, but got to go back to my engineering work. By the way, I'm really happy that salesman isn't better in engineering than myself, puh... otherwise would all these years of education be worthless...

[Sean-Roach]

How's this?

Check the maximum skill for tradeskills for a trader, including the self-cast tradeskill buffs.

Check the maximum skill for tradeskills for an engineer, including self-cast tradeskill buffs WHERE APPLICABLE.

Figure the difference.

Give Engineers a line of tradeskill buffs that are Self Only, and put them IN PARITY on tradeskills, but only those that are green, with Traders. Make the NP and NCU costs staggering, with the target being only two such buffs running at a time. (It should be max NCU supported, solo, as in if you max your Comp Lit, and got the best belt and NCU memory for that belt and your Comp Lit, you should ALMOST be able to fit three such tradeskill buffs, but not quite.)

The buff should be Self Only, so traders are still useful to the other classes for buffing tradeskills, and it SHOULD NOT STACK with the trader buffs.

The Engineer versions, further, should, as I mentioned above, practically drain NP with each casting, (think cast nano, sit, hit nano-recharger, stand up, cast next nano,) should be rather short lived, (you DO know what you're making, right? No batches, you're a custom work person,) and take more NCU than the trader version.

An engineer, who doesn't want to run out of money buying nano-rechargers, would still target a trader for assistance, since the trader tradeskill buffs would last for several minutes to the enginerer's two minutes, (figuring on needing to recharge nano's twice to cast the next one for those of us who haven't maintained a high treatment score, that's about half a minute wasted between buffs there. You might need the other 90 seconds to organize your next step or steps, and overcome lag,) and take FAR less NCU to run.

So if an engineer wants to mass-produce some item, (has two backpacks full of the parts, ready to go,) and is thus acting like a trader, (mass producing stuff), then he needs a trader to buff him. If he's making one or two oh-say program crystals from carbonrich rock, he needs different tradeskills for the different steps, and one wearing out in two minutes doesn't matter because he's already cleared it to load a different one for the next step.

If you want to have more fun with it, make Engineers SUFFER for the pleasure. Have the engineer version of the "buffs" suck up combat skills, or even lock them for a few minutes, so engineers can't do tradeskills one minute and go fighting the next. Make the buff "materialize" a technical assistant that lasts for as long as the combat skills might be locked, that can't be ordered to /terminate, so engineers can't follow their pets around, hunting, for the next few minutes either. Actually, just make the buff increment the number of the pets the engineer has by one for the duration of the buff.

ACTUALLY, split the buff into two, one that is self-only good, and one like the traders are hit with, that is self-only and uncancelable. This last one should last 15 minutes, decrement combat skills by twice what the supposed engineer is likely to have, and increment pets by one. This way, half the buff can wear off, while the other half sticks even through a logout-login cycle.

Engineers, would YOU commit 15 minutes to combat incapability for 2+ minutes of solid tradeskill capability?

Traders, how'd it effect you, besides reducing the number of engineer customers you had, to give engineers this weaker version of your own buffs?

Oh, one more thing. And this would be to help the traders. The booths should, if this is enacted, do two things. Give a discounts on multiple purchases of the same thing, so mass-producers get a price-break. Offer higher prices to multiple buybacks of the same thing, so mass-producers can manufacture gear "for export" and still make a profit. A small profit, and nowhere near what the populous might be willing to pay, but a profit nonetheless. (I'd say selling 10 or more of the same thing should be the trigger level. If you're selling 10 IDENTICLE items, you should be able to earn more, for being a stable source of goods.)

THIS because your in-game trade system, frankly, is inadequate. You should make it easier to use, not make NPC purchases from PC's ridiculously cheap.

And yes, engineers could buy "in bulk" and "stock up" on basic parts, but with the exception of some single-level consumable parts, this would mostly mean rather full bank accounts for no reason. Even engineers level, after all, and what engineer wants to spend time making a QL 10 gun from year-old stocks, when he could be finishing out that QL 180 gun that his regular teammate could actually use?


----edit below-----
P.S. Something that'd make engineers survivable in PVP would be one of the following. Make the pets explode on the death of the master, (I THINK I'd rather re-cast a pet after dying then know my murder wasn't avenged), dealing massive damage to anyone not teamed with the engineer at the time. /terminate should not trigger this. Or make the pets snag the engineers and jump/run/whatever, at least 500 feet from the attacking individuals location, instantly killing Aggro, so the engineer can recover. Or make the killing of any engineer over level 74, not including /terminate, result in an instant, weaker, form of the slayerdroid transference. Let the engineer "live on" in his creation but still have to visit the reclaim terminal for the bulk of his stuff. Properly speaking, this might require a bit of forethought. Perhaps the installation of one of those tradeskill items that's supposed to make your 'bot think it's an extension of it's master.

[______________Cronos]

unhappy trader said:

That's the game.
It's not up to you how you think it should've been.
The game has exisiting rules.
If you agree to play, you agree to those rules.
That goes for every game ever.
Why do you think AO should be different?

well....AO is different because your paying monthly for continual upkeep and balancing of the game. look at the rules at this game's launch and now. DIFFERENT arent they? the game has dynamic rules.

that said, traders are a prof i'd like to start an alt out of sometime but until then i think engis really do need at least a couple tradeskill buffs. in real life if your building a weapon, who do you ask? a "trader" (salesman) or an engineer, who specializes in electronics and technology?

and please dont quote me and argue! i'd like to think this post has no flaws.... if unhappy trader wants to give it a go i'm here though.

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Cronos
unhappy trader said:


well....AO is different because your paying monthly for continual upkeep and balancing of the game. look at the rules at this game's launch and now. DIFFERENT arent they? the game has dynamic rules.

You are paying for bandwidth and equipment maintainence.
You are paying for updated CONTENT.
But we are seeing very little of the latter, because constant
arguing on the message boards between professions
motivated Funcom to keep screwing with the rules
instead of improving the game.

Games like this are supposed to have dynamic content,
and dynamic stories, not dynamic rules.

I am not paying every month for the priviledge of living
in constant fear of nerfs and having characters destroyed.

I have played a Trader since release.
I have advocated improvements of tradeskills since that time.
I have begged and made many suggestions on how to
implement more tradeskills, with real customization.
So I will not accept proposals that everything I've wanted
now be implemented as engineer-only as suggested above.

I posted many months ago ideas about armor-making tradeskills.
I specifically suggested turning Brontos and Pit Lizards (dragons, heh) into armor.
Needless to say, I was excited about 14.4 for that reason,
even tho the healing nerf ruined my primary purpose in teams.
(the purpose I had designed my character for anyway)
And many other ideas I've suggested did make it into the game
in some form or another. Maybe I helped. Maybe it's coincidence.
I am not egotistical enough to think only I could've come up with those ideas.
But either way it's what I've been rallying for. More content. Better tradeskills.

I am playing the game as I am supposed to.
I chose a profession based on the existing rules.
You will not convince me that it is fair to deny me what I have
waited for just because you think 'Engineer' sounds cooler.
I am right now. You need the rules changed for you to be right.

Engineers should get to do everything too.
Unlike some engineers, I am not asking for Trader-only tradeskills.
Tradeskills should be based on your trade skills. Nothing else.
I think it's unfair that implant hacking is Fixer-only.
If I want to raise my B&E for it, I should be allowed.
I do not want to see these limitations become a pattern.
It should be disturbing to anyone who plays a tradeskill profession.
An enforcer should be able to do tradeskills if he wants to spend the IP.
Traders just get the buffs. That's all. It's a profession perk.
It's one of the reasons to choose Trader vs everyone else.

If Engineers got self-only tradeskill buffs, and they stacked
with the Trader buffs, now Engineers are best tradeskill class.
The hierarchy that was established at release is broken.
Traders should always be > Engineers at tradeskills
because the designers decided it was so a long long time ago.
Any change to that order would be unfair to those who chose traders for that reason.

Now, if engineers wanted tradeskill buffs that were not self-only,
and were not asking for engineer-only tools/tradeskills,
then maybe some solution could improve life for everyone.

What if Engineers get SMALLER tradeskill buffs. NOT self-only.
The result would be, that Traders maintain their position as the 'best',
but now Traders and Engineers can exchange buffs with eachother
and everyone ends up with more.

I have a feeling that's not what the people who start these threads want tho.
They want to be the best, regardless of all previous rules and balance,
and they don't care who gets screwed over along the way.

[Highorbit]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader

I am playing the game as I am supposed to.
I chose a profession based on the existing rules.
You will not convince me that it is fair to deny me what I have
waited for just because you think 'Engineer' sounds cooler.
I am right now. You need the rules changed for you to be right.

I have to agree. This whole arguement seems entirely pointless.

I chose Engineer based on the description in the manual (as my first character), but this doesn't mean a player who chose trader based on better (and perhaps accurate ) information deserves to be nerfed.

If this is a fault in the manual then FC are to blame not the Traders themselves.

The availability of trade skill capable characters should be increased, not nerfed, reduced, halved etc.

The most frustrating thing about trade skills is the amount required and that Funcom seem to expect a change of implants every time you want to do anything. This restricts the amount of skills available for other players as well as for ourselves.

So I shall continue to campaign for a item / buff that can be available for both Engineers and Traders that will buff these by about 200. Maybe then there will be more than absolutely minimal work for both these professions. After all, instruction discs are far far more common these days.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
Needless to say, I was excited about 14.4 for that reason,
even tho the healing nerf ruined my primary purpose in teams.
(the purpose I had designed my character for anyway)

-snip-

I am playing the game as I am supposed to.
I chose a profession based on the existing rules.

Should have played a doctor then?

I _dont_ recall the Traders description saying anything about being a Doctor, maybe I was too busy concentrating on the tradeskills and theft skills of the Trader

oh I see, you want to be the best at _everything_! Why didnt you just say so.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
Engineers should get to do everything too.

Yes, but everyone does it better...

Unlike some engineers, I am not asking for Trader-only tradeskills. Tradeskills should be based on your trade skills. Nothing else.

I agree with you here, but the problem is that engineers doesn't have any keyskills that no other profession have...

I think it's unfair that implant hacking is Fixer-only.
If I want to raise my B&E for it, I should be allowed.

It's not fixer only, everyone can use it but the Break & Entry is pretty high for high quality implants... about 5 times the quality and only 1 time the quality in nanoprogramming...

I do not want to see these limitations become a pattern.
It should be disturbing to anyone who plays a tradeskill profession.

Yes, but engineers can't be good at anything since they don't have keyskills like traders (good buffs), og good Break & Entry like fixers etc...

An enforcer should be able to do tradeskills if he wants to spend the IP.

Again I agree, but each profession should be good at a special area, soldiers are good in weapons, fixers are good to hack (therefor good to modify tank armor, dissambling implants), metas is master of nanotechnology etc... but the problem is that the "Engineer is the master of construction, both by conventional means and through the use of nano programs" (quote from online manual) isn't good at anything because everyone else have their keyskills - so it will be very hard to make something special for engineers unless they give them one tradeskills buff that is better than traders, eg. weaponsmith to make them good at modifing weapons...

Again, the quote "Engineer is the master of construction, both by conventional means...", what is the conventional means? Isn't that weaponcreation, nanocrystal production etc?

Now, if engineers wanted tradeskill buffs that were not self-only, and were not asking for engineer-only tools/tradeskills, then maybe some solution could improve life for everyone.

What if Engineers get SMALLER tradeskill buffs. NOT self-only.
The result would be, that Traders maintain their position as the 'best', but now Traders and Engineers can exchange buffs with eachother and everyone ends up with more.

This is a nice idea, but it doesn't make the engineer profession any special but sure will help both traders and engineers. This would make engineers and traders work more closely together.

I have a feeling that's not what the people who start these threads want tho. They want to be the best, regardless of all previous rules and balance, and they don't care who gets screwed over along the way.

I started this thread because I found it strange that traders are better making complex weapons than an engineer who is designed for it... either we could make engineers more special in tradeskills or remove the hole profession...

[Warlock]

To add to the problem if you read the soldier board in the thread about the reply to the Professionals report there are mentions of increased Soldier weaponsmithing abilities

So there goes that out of the window too

Hang on! I was done with this thread (note to self: congratulate the trolls :-) )

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by Krabbus
This is a nice idea, but it doesn't make the engineer profession any special but sure will help both traders and engineers. This would make engineers and traders work more closely together.

This is in fact exactly what the whole "customisation vs. mass-production" idea was intended to promote. The idea was that if you want a really high quality, custom weapon constructed you have to go to a Trader to get the original made (Traders being able to buff into higher tradeskills than Engineers) then go to an Engineer to get it converted into its final form.

Certain builds might require a customised kit to start from. In these cases the procedure is reversed - the customer goes to the Engineer first to acquire the custom base part(s), then goes to the Trader to exploit his higher tradeskills to get the best weapon possible built.

In this way, both professions have a role. Both can function separately, but the results of collaboration between the two are better than either can achieve on their own. If I gave the wrong impression then I apologise.

Cheers,

~R~

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Warlock


Should have played a doctor then?

I _dont_ recall the Traders description saying anything about being a Doctor, maybe I was too busy concentrating on the tradeskills and theft skills of the Trader

oh I see, you want to be the best at _everything_! Why didnt you just say so.

Traders were never the best at healing. That was a lie.

a different issue tho. so i wont debate it there.

You and I are a fundamental difference.
You want the game based on a promotional writers blrubs.
I want the game based on the real game, as implemented.

I keep repeating to you, descriptions mean nothing.
The profession descriptions, and every other bit of
info written pre-release (including manuals and strategy guides)
are irrelevant, obsolete, not accurate, not important. understand?

If you want to know what a profession can and cnanot do,
and how it compares to other professions, then look at
the skills menu, compare IP costs, then research each classes nanos.

That is what the professions are. Not what's on some outdated webpage.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
(...) That is what the professions are. Not what's on some outdated webpage.

But you have to agree that it isn't possible to give engineers anything special without making it engineer only or give a benefit if you are engineer???

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Krabbus
Yes, but everyone does it better...

I was referring to tradeskills only.
Only Traders do that better. As intended.

It's not fixer only, everyone can use it but the Break & Entry is pretty high for high quality implants... about 5 times the quality and only 1 time the quality in nanoprogramming...

http://auno.org/aodb.php?t=ag&cmd=view&id=161867

Implant Disassembly Clinic
This clinic is used to disassemble normal implants. It removes all clusters by destroying them and returns only the Basic Implant. The result is in a condition almost as good as new - and almost as antiseptic (although not antiseptical enough for most official medical practicians).

Patch 14.42

QL 200

Requirements treatment >= 475
computer literacy >= 475
visual profession fixer

Effects modify self treatment 20


? This item says Fixer-only. You say others can use it ?
(if so, its probably a bug, but if it's not a bug.. um? woot i guess)

I started this thread because I found it strange that traders are better making complex weapons than an engineer who is designed for it...

Here is what I keep repeating:

The description is not accurate.
The descriptions conflict with eachother and with the game.
The descriptions tell us all kinds of things that arent true
or were never implemented.
The game itself overrides the promotional material.

Yes, Engineers are designed to be good at tradeskills.
But Traders are designed to be the best at tradeskills.

Engineers are primarily a pet class.
You dont build robots at all. You have nanos to summon them.
Traders are the primary tradeskill class. We have nanos to buff them.

That is just how the game is. I didn't design it that way.
I just study the rules and make decisions based on the rules.

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Krabbus
But you have to agree that it isn't possible to give engineers anything special without making it engineer only or give a benefit if you are engineer???

Engineers can have lots of special stuff. I already said you deserve more.
You just can't have engineer-only tradeskills when you are not the main tradeskill class.
You can't have buffs that make you better at tradeskills than the main tradeskill class.
I know you don't like that.
It sounds like you didn't do enough research before deciding on a profession.
You obviously didn't choose the right profession if you wanted to be the best tradeskill class.

I'm sorry. And I totally see how new players might assume that.
But game balance should not be redesigned because you F'd up picking your profession. All the traders playing traders to be the
best tradeskill class should not be suddenly made second-best
or have their tradeskill options limited just because you made a newbie mistake.

If you regret it that much, reroll like we all did.
What do you think learning this game was like when all we had
was the 10-page manual full of pretty pictures that came in the box?
No veteran players to learn from. No webpages with info.
Just the game itself. So what did we do when we wanted to learn?
Make a character of every class. record the IP information.
go to all the shops and check out weapons and nano formulas.
That is what newbies should be doing.
Not whining here begging mommy funcom to change the game for them,
at the expense of people already playing with significantly more investment at stake.

[Highorbit]

I'm just curious 'cos I seem to have missed it...

There's the bot... which is essentially our combat skill and it's crap.

Erm... well... that's it really...

AC Buffs?? Be better putting the IP into evades than MM I think...

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader


Engineers can have lots of special stuff. I already said you deserve more.
You just can't have engineer-only tradeskills when you are not the main tradeskill class.
You can't have buffs that make you better at tradeskills than the main tradeskill class.
I know you don't like that.
It sounds like you didn't do enough research before deciding on a profession.
You obviously didn't choose the right profession if you wanted to be the best tradeskill class.

Ok, listen, you said you didn't like profession specific tools, therefor can't engineers be made special, the only special thing they have is beacon warp...

But anyway, the point is to make both traders and engineers work more closely together, as it is today can traders work all alone and engineers are the forgotten step... so what can we do to make them more like a team?

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Krabbus

But anyway, the point is to make both traders and engineers work more closely together, as it is today can traders work all alone and engineers are the forgotten step... so what can we do to make them more like a team?

What if Engineers get SMALLER tradeskill buffs. NOT self-only.
The result would be, that Traders maintain their position as the 'best',
but now Traders and Engineers can exchange buffs with eachother
and everyone ends up with more.

didn't like that idea?

what about:

I would also like it if Engineers could build/summon temporary
stationary guns like those at outposts. Or other forms of 'traps'.
What about landmines with proximity detection?
Might get engies more involved in PvP.

I dont think it's genius. But I am making suggestions.

I am only arguing against Engies stealing the Traders position as best tradeskill class.
That's all.