Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

[Krabbus]

The discussion is going on, but the my mainpoint is to make Engineers and Traders more like a team. So one of the mainpoints is to make traders and engineers more dependent on each other - but how can we do that?

Why should we make engineers and traders a team when they create things? In real world it's working like this:
1. The engineer invented/making a new item, the engineer don't have the knowledge to sell the item on their own (therefor traders got good buffs)
2. The trader take care of the marketing and buys the item of the engineer (because he can have better skills?)
3. Both traders and engineers have made a profit, and the customer is paying.

But today are traders forgetting all about the first step and make the things theirself. How can we avoid that? We can give engineers a small buffline that is half of traders but stack and is self-only? This way will both traders and engineers ask each other when they have to make a new item (you can also make the new buffline others too, but if you want to follow the model above the buff should be selfonly)

[Plasmatorch]

first off I am going to make a disclaimer that I am not trying to down you Krabbus because I think that it is a good idea. But I fail to see how it would solve anything since the trader would still have the higher buff and would thus have a higher skill still. They would still bypass the creator ( the engineer ) and make it themselves

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Heavypacker
The point being, both Engies and Traders are equal at tradeskills, but Traders can buff them to become better. This is the sore spot for the Engies. Engies can build bots to fight for them while Traders have to slug it out themselves. Take an Engies bot away and what do you have? A TRADER! Though a weaker one, thats what your stuck with.

Engineers are not ment to fight at all, therefor they have a bot. Traders can heal, can divest/plunder to get better attackrating, debuff mobs AC etc etc - engineers can't do anything of that.

Anyway, Funcom have to change the online manual, because nothing of it is the truth, can we really make a-graded guns when someone else can make this better alone? what about modifing armor, isn't this a fixer speciality? And armormaking is doctors and traders speciality again... what do engineers have left?

I have maxed all my tradeskills including tutoring (except chemistry/pharma) and MM, MC, TS and Treatment... aslo my MA, INT but my evades is lacking and all other combat abilities (it's so expensive) - If I ever get the agro I'm dead, I bet traders can do this better since they don't have to raise their tradeskills so much (they have all the buff) and have better combat abilities...

I'm a gimped engineer that can't understand Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering and WeaponSmith ?!? as good as traders that also have Computer Literacy for a reason (to get better prices)...

[jakesnake5]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
well heavy packer it seems you need glasses and sicen you can't tell someone who is stupid, stupid since they think they are the smartest person. I will leave you in your own little diluded world. heavypacker since you can't see anything liek it is supposed to be ans sorry you can't pvp or have decent attack skills since your shotgun is is green and an engineers pistol is light blue. hmm who is meant to fight? so since you just can't get teh point that question is meant for other not you
oh and antoehr thing if you stopped trying to be an engineer and tried to be a trader and use you nano's then maybe you could be decent in combat

and I also realy like how you skipped the entire part about what a trader should be doing from your quote. nice touch

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Really, now you have shown your true colors. To stoop so low as to namecall, let alone call somebody stupid, AND not spellchecking too well.......

Let's see, Trader Nanos.... What good are Trader nanos? We can buff ourselves, steal some health/ac/skills from opponent, BUT, against mobs, this doesn't decrease their abilities.

We have no shields, can't get any crit buffs, can't mezz without being locked down even if we miss or our target dies. Our only real damage nano doesn't do alot of damage for the lvl we're at, though it does return a little health, which isn't alot for the lvl either.

And as for trying to be a Trader with nanos, most help OTHERS, not selves (you know what a wrangle does to a trader? HP or AC transfers?)

We trade skills as well as items made from TS.

Give Traders bots and shields, then nag bout being weaker.

We have an affinity for TS. Race define's how strong that affinity is. Same for Engies.

Your comments show you never played a Trader. I suggest you go experience one. Then you'd know how Engies are better than Traders. Tradeskill mastery would only improve Engies a little bit.

[Plasmatorch]

as for your info I have played a trader

and you still can't get teh point so I will leave you in your own little diluded worl heavy packer since you can't get the point anyway and I am tired of trying to show it to you.

[gnuman]

Get a room you 2 lovebirds.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
first off I am going to make a disclaimer that I am not trying to down you Krabbus because I think that it is a good idea. But I fail to see how it would solve anything since the trader would still have the higher buff and would thus have a higher skill still. They would still bypass the creator ( the engineer ) and make it themselves

They would not bypass the engineers when they are missing 60 points, would they?

[Plasmatorch]

Originally posted by Krabbus
They would not bypass the engineers when they are missing 60 points, would they?

the trader buffs add +40, +90 + 125
so if a trader has the same amount as an engineer in MEch angi he would bypass the engineer even if the engineer only had a 60 point buff.

and if the engineer got a buff line for trade skills then the traders would more than likely quit giving out the meastro's wich would leave the engineer with a 65 point deficet behind the trader

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch


the trader buffs add +40, +90 + 125
so if a trader has the same amount as an engineer in MEch angi he would bypass the engineer even if the engineer only had a 60 point buff.

and if the engineer got a buff line for trade skills then the traders would more than likely quit giving out the meastro's wich would leave the engineer with a 65 point deficet behind the trader

The traders buffline is +40,+80,+120, but I want the buff to stack, so a trader can have +120 (own buff) and the engineer buff (+60) at the same time, buffing a total of +180 points...

Are the Fixers going to quit because soldiers get a SMG buff (smaller)?
Are the Agents going to quit since the soldiers get a Rifle buff (smaller)?
Would the Traders quit if engineers got a Tradeskill buff (smaller)?

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Heavypacker
Your comments show you never played a Trader. I suggest you go experience one. Then you'd know how Engies are better than Traders. Tradeskill mastery would only improve Engies a little bit.

That is such a classic line, I must print and frame it!

Seriously dude where the _hell_ did you get that impression from? Traders get shotgun, Engineers get pistol. Most Engineers use shotgun so that kinda tells you something right there (its a better weapon choice, and its green for you so you can be better at it than we are). First point to the Trader.

We get a bot, granted it has loads of hit points but doesnt do enough damage to hold agro when grouping and pathing is still bad. You get to charm stuff, the fact that you're rooted etc means I think we are equally screwed on the pets issue.

An Engineer with agro = a dead Engineer. I see lots of Traders acting as tanks, shows you dont have a problem with taking agro. 2 points to the Trader

You have AC buffs so do we, AC is generally considered crap and certainly not worth the NCU, another draw here

You are better at tradeskills than we are (not including buffs) since all your skills are green, 3 points for the Trader

You have buffs other players want/need (and you can charge for them). Engineers have a few diverse buffs I'm never seen asked for. 4 points to the Trader

You get direct damage nanos that also heal you (however small). We get no direct damage nanos and no heals. 5 maybe even 6 points for the Trader.

You get team heals (however crap you think they are now). We dont get any. The only 'team' nanos we get are Auras (which people hate for numerous reasons) and beacon warp (which at that level is useless since no ones dies). 7 points to the Trader

Optional (since a small percentage do it)
You rule in PvP with ransacks and deprives (which FC admit are aimed more at PvP than PvM). Engineers generally sux big time at PvP (although there are notable exceptions for Engineers who go 100% MA and use Slayerdroid Transference - this only applies to the high level game though). Optional point to the Traders

So anyway you slice it Traders are 6/7/8 points up on the Engineer. Would you mind explaning why you think Engineers are better.

Besides that this should be a specific thread on the Tradeskill abilities of the 2 classes. May be best of we dont derail it here with the other issues.

[gnuman]

I play both a trader(lvl 200) and an engineer (close to 150), so I kinda see it from both sides of the coin. Engineers need some love - but its not THAT bad and as long as engineers can get the trader-buffs I don't see that as a big issue really. Not bigger than everyone else that need buffs from other professions. I do think there could be added some tools for the engies that could ****e up the gap between traders and engies on some of the tradeskills, but I don't think buffs is the way.

And stop comparing traders and engineers. 2 very different professions which are impossible to compare.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Noer
I play both a trader(lvl 200) and an engineer (close to 150), so I kinda see it from both sides of the coin.

Now we know what you've been up to since you retired your Trader :-).

[_____________Raymote]

Great post by CountNerfedalot on page 4 of this thread, everyone with an opinion on what a trader and engineer are with relation to tradeskills go and read that again. Especially his colour coded bits.

Then read Noers last post, he’s the voice of reason in here.

I think everyone needs to accept that (As Noer said) traders and engineers are two totally different classes who HAPPEN to both be (Among other things) masters of tradeskills in their own right. (Or more exactly - have the POTENTIAL to be the masters of - its a minority of both who raise tradeskills to the max I would imagine.)

Talking about the engineers v traders in a points system (like Warlocks post) is a bit of a waste of time, I could easily do something similar and show Engineers to be the "best" - but what does that prove? (Engineers get bots, 5 pts, Bot heals, 1 pt, etc etc lol)

The way I see it anyone who raises tradeskills should work together with friends and guild members who do the same, to raise skills that complement those of their friends. Thats where the multiplayer side comes in.

Buffs are just one facet of that.

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by Raymote
I think everyone needs to accept that (As Noer said) traders and engineers are two totally different classes who HAPPEN to both be (Among other things) masters of tradeskills in their own right.

...which brings us right back to finding some means to differentiate the two professions in terms of their tradeskills, without resorting to buffs/nerfs etc.

We have to accept, all of us, that no matter what we do, there will always be one profession which is best in terms of numbers next to the skill listings. What we need to do is change the type of tradeskill work each profession does. Fixers are a good example here - they get a profession specific tool to remove clusters from implants. It's a very fixer-ish thing to be able to do, so I'm perfectly happy for fixers to have a tradeskill application that my engineer doesn't have access to.

Otakette put forward an excellent suggestion, that Traders could be kings of mass production and supply (buffs, trader terminal) while Engineers could be masters of customisation and prototyping. In short, if you want a weapon built, better go to a trader. If you want it modified, find yourself an engineer. It nicely fits the respective images of the two professions, in my opinion. Profession specific tools (ie. a unique application of a tradeskill) would seem to be a good way to do
this.

Best of all, I think this would also meet Krabbus' goal of encouraging interdependence between the two professions. To get a really top-flight, custom weapon made, you're going to need the help of both professions - one to build it, one to add those special custom mods you want.

Cheers,

~R~

[Plasmatorch]

Originally posted by Soyuz
...which brings us right back to finding some means to differentiate the two professions in terms of their tradeskills, without resorting to buffs/nerfs etc.

We have to accept, all of us, that no matter what we do, there will always be one profession which is best in terms of numbers next to the skill listings. What we need to do is change the type of tradeskill work each profession does. Fixers are a good example here - they get a profession specific tool to remove clusters from implants. It's a very fixer-ish thing to be able to do, so I'm perfectly happy for fixers to have a tradeskill application that my engineer doesn't have access to.

Otakette put forward an excellent suggestion, that Traders could be kings of mass production and supply (buffs, trader terminal) while Engineers could be masters of customisation and prototyping. In short, if you want a weapon built, better go to a trader. If you want it modified, find yourself an engineer. It nicely fits the respective images of the two professions, in my opinion. Profession specific tools (ie. a unique application of a tradeskill) would seem to be a good way to do
this.

Best of all, I think this would also meet Krabbus' goal of encouraging interdependence between the two professions. To get a really top-flight, custom weapon made, you're going to need the help of both professions - one to build it, one to add those special custom mods you want.

Cheers,

~R~

Good idea but one flaw look at the post I put on page 4 before "heavypacker the troll" started a post war with me.

And that one flaw would be that it does not fit either the trader example and definition or the engineer definition. Though it does fit the example for an engineer somewhat. but I see this a as a good idea but with one flaw. fix this flaw and you would have a great idea.

Maybe one fix for it would be to make the engineers the master of creation by conventional means,as they are supposed to be. but in order for them to sell the item they have created they have to go to a trader to sell the item. Which in RL happens all the time. just a suggestion I might not know what I am talking about but I am sure that is what happens.

--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???

[Warlock]

Well I'm pretty much done with this thread. We've gone back and forth and in my (admittedly biased) opinion got nowhere. If I'm honest I think traders are still hurting from the heal rebalancing and are paranoid about another perceived 'nerf'.

Krabbus and others (probably all engineers) have posted some suggestions on a fix and have just met with resistance (mainly from the traders) pretty much all the way.

Noer has made the concession that engineers do need fixing but hasnt taken it any further. Raymote has tried to belittle my satirical post (you obviously didnt get it did you) on how traders have so much more going for them than engineers and I have yet to see any trader (or engineer for that matter) come up with anything that the engineer is actually better than the trader at which is worth spit in the game.

So I hope the FC lurkers got a good laugh at this thread because this is the most engineer/trader PvP they are ever going to see.

I'm through trying to bring the plight of the engineers into FC's focus across all these boards since I've wasted alot of time and still no ones sees (except of course people who actually engineers) and I'm not prepared to waste anymore time on this thread as even if engineers do get a 'tradeskill fix' there will still be alot of work to be done on them. Its no suprise these boards have so many flamers and trolls since this is the result of players who have simply run out of energy trying to have FC make changes for the better (yes this is an admission that my posts recently have on a downward spiral towards troll/flamedom).

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
And that one flaw would be that it does not fit either the trader example and definition or the engineer definition ... fix this flaw and you would have a great idea.

Fortunately for us, Funcom are supposedly in the process of re-writing the manual

Seriously, "masters of creation by conventional means" can be interpreted in more than one way. Being able to produce a unique, customised weapon or piece of armour strikes me as one possible way to do it. It doesn't nerf the trader, it gives the engineer some added value and it might just persuade the two to work together from time to time.

Cheers,

~R~

[__________CodeMonkey]

The reason engineers don't have direct tradeskill buffs for anything except pharma and chemistry are because of trimmers.

Out of curiosity, have there been any field tests of mid-level engineers running the appropriate Maestro buffs using OE'd trimmers on their bots?
How much better did your bot become?

If/When Funcom decides to give engies direct tradeskill buffs, I forsee several things happening:

a: The buff will be so miniscule, it will be pointless.

b: The buff will be self only, last a very short duration (less than 3 min) and will lock a nano skill, preventing the other tradeskill buffs from being cast at the same time.

c: Trimmers will be nerfed by having their effectiveness reduced.

d: Trimmers will be nerfed by having level restrictions placed on them.

e: Trimmers will be nerfed by having their requirements raised.

As things are, engineers are the best low to mid level crafters in the game, because raising trade skills also raises their combat effectiveness. Traders are too IP starved until post 125 to raise trade skills. If they do, their leveling potential suffers.

[Destractor]

hahaha

If trimmers got any more nerfed they would give a negative effect

The reason people to not oe trimmers is cos they do sod all.

Sounds like you are talking about tutoring devices rather than buffs. I guess a line of tutoring buffs would be nice if you could use 2 devices at the same time.

[Sean-Roach]

How about TWO new lines of nanoprograms? Call them both the Collaboration line. Collaboration (Engineer), and Collaboration (Trader).

Both should read as such.

Requirements:
That professions first most common nanoskill here.
That professions second most common nanoskill here.
Profession: That profession.
Target MUST be That other profession.

Effects:
Modify target mech engi +some number
Modify target elec engi +some number
Modify target quantumFT +some number
...


Basically, give both professions a new line of nanos that make the two better at tradeskills than either can be alone. The engineer could only cast on the trader, the trader could only cast on the engineer.



Of course, I'd still rather see engineers get some engineer-only "social armor" that boosts tradeskills, and the trader get a MUCH better trade window. (Price check against AO tables, buy and deliver from zones away with a single /textline command, etc.)



-----A hypothetical trade scenario with the advanced trade screen I'd like to see-----
Clan_trade_50: Nobody: For sale, One Junior Wen Wen.

You click Junior Wen Wen.

The console shows what it normally does in the information window, plus the following at the bottom, (Recommended price is xxx, buyback price is yyy, this item is available in stores to QL n).

/buy 50000.

On the sellers screen, a window pops up saying "Somebody is offering 50000 for the Junior Wen Wen. Do you accept?" <Yes> <No>.

Nobody clicks <Yes> And the transaction is made then and there, without zoning to meet. You loose 50000, but gain a Junior Wen Wen in your inventory, Nobody experiences the exact opposite.
----end of trade scenario-------

Of course, this should only be made available to Traders, and maybe Fixers, and only if Engineers get some advantage in Tradeskills.