Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

[gnuman]

S.T.M - Reported to be dropped by TIM in Foremans office. Drop isnt guaranteed, plus that dungeon is camped anyway, plus high level needed to even consider going there

It drops - I have one.

Crystal - I've posted both on the Engineers board and Virrals boards regarding this and no one has reported to have found one.

Might be true, havn't looked for it. But I think it drops with the other crystals on bosses.

NCU - dropped by a specific (unique?) MOB. High level needed to attempt this, dont know if the drop is guaranteed.

It drops, I have one. Modified a-4000 in Avalon.

So none of these are actually a solution. We need a class-wide fix, not another item that only high levels and those in uber guilds can get hold of. Something along the lines of the Fixer NCU Hackers interface.

Its pretty common that class fixes are done through rare items.

[gnuman]

Originally posted by Maximilian
-> Valid point, but to get close to 1000 which you need for ql200 armour or eggs you need to have a trader around, or be a trader.

Doctors can't get 1k without a trader and traders can't get 1k without a doctor. But a doctor can buff skills more with ql200 implants than a trader can with their own buffs.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Noer
Doctors can't get 1k without a trader and traders can't get 1k without a doctor. But a doctor can buff skills more with ql200 implants than a trader can with their own buffs.

Engineers can't do this without a doctor AND a trader, hehe...

What is the titles for Engineers and Traders?

[______________Scorus]

Paperwork tradeskills as promised 10 months ago, please.

Scorus

[hhj]

Originally posted by Makarov (SUPERSLAG supporter)
After engineers we would have Traders Whit a bit worse skills (but best buffs) NT/MP (who are still best in NP whit best NP buffs).

Just wonted to remind that the Nano Technician dosent have Nano - programing buffs oposite to the Meta Physicist. Why does a Priest (pet class) make better implants then a Nano Technician?

I cant figure out...

Demona66

[_____CountNerfedalot]

No way do I agree with the sentiment of nerfing Traders OR boosting Engineers in any way shape or form to make Engies superior to Traders in the Trades. Sorry I just disagree, and vehemently!

BUT, I do think it's unfair if Traders can make better weapons sooner than Engineers.

NO, I'm not contradicting myself! Allow me to explain.

Note that BOTH professions are described as having tradeskills as one of their primary capabilities. Claiming that those descriptions can somehow be twisted to justify one as superior to the other is silly class envy. I see the choice between Traders and Engineers as one of style. They should both be roughly equally competent at tradeskills, but should achieve that competency through completely different means.

The Engineer is the introvert. He is a gadgeteer and a geek. He builds robots and tools and should be able (and required) to bootstrap himself up to his highest skill potential through self-made tools and gadgets that enhance his tradeskill capabilities. Just as his combat droid enhances his combat capabilities. He can be pictured as the mad scientist or reclusive inventor.

The Trader is the extrovert. He gets things done by manipulating or coordinating the strengths and skills of others. He's the kind of guy who can take a brilliant technical idea and actually turn it into something that can be mass-produced and marketed. He should be at his best when he can combine the base output of others into something greater than the sum of its parts.

In game terms though, especially within the confines of AO's system as it exists today, it is a bit harder to flesh out the trader's strengths in those multiplayer terms. What would fit well is if the Engineer's best products were useful only to himself, while the Trader's best products would be equivalent to the Engineer's and be useful to others BUT would require sub-components only others (like engineers, NTs, mabye Doctors) can provide. To make that work though, would require a large selection of tradeskills and crafted items interconnected at all levels from QL1 through 200. A very large amount of design and development work. Work which SHOULD have been done before beta, like a lot of other work that STILL hasn't been done, but that's spilt milk under the bridge.

The alternative fair and reasonable quick-fix for Funcom would be to boost Engineers' trade-skills through self-made tools such that engineers and traders have equivalent capabilities AT ALL LEVELS. Engineers would get their capabilities through their toys which cost time and money to make but last forever, while Traders get them through buffs which require NCUs to run and are temporary.

The other major differentiation between Traders and Engineers is pets. Some people love pet classes, with all the fun you can have bossing them around and RPing with them and such. Other people hate pet classes, with all the hassles of pet pathing, imprecise control and clumsy interface issues. Making Traders and Engineers EQUAL masters of the tradeskills gives the players the freedom to choose which STYLE of play they prefer without having to sacrifice tradeskill capabilities. Getting good at tradeskills requires more than enough sacrifices as it is without adding more.

Remember:
Choice is good.
Nerfing, especially nerfing due to class-envy, is bad!

[gnuman]

As long as trader-buffs are obtainable from other professions engineers would be far superior in tradeskills if they got items to boost their tradeskill attributes more than they have now.

[Krabbus]

From the online manual about the Engineer
"Technology and machines are a citizens best friend and there are no two ways about it. Why, with only a few basic parts and a twist of the wrist, you'll be the proud owner of a brand new custom-made weapon. Learn from me and I won't only show you how to equip your friends and customers with A-grade guns, swords and blunt objects, but I will also show you how to use your skills in the battlefield. The armour your friend, or even you, is wearing is too old and doesn't work effectively anymore? Not to worry! With technology you can increase the statistics of that armour and you'll be grinning from ear to ear. Hey, why not add a shield that damages an enemy hitting it? Sure, there you go. You just keep smiling my friend! That weapon is a little slow? Not to worry! Let's increase its damage output a bit shall we? And let's not forget the embodiment of your friend technology; the droid. Let me tell you, be an Engineer and you'll be the happiest grease monkey there ever was. Say, does that armour need fixing?"

Overview
The Engineer is the master of construction, both by conventional means and through the use of nano programs. His robot is his weapon and protection, and an Engineer is easily recognisable by his ever-present automated friend. The Engineer prefers to dabble in man-made items, rather than focus on other skills such as combat. That does not mean, however, that an Engineer can't defend himself. Corner an Engineer and you will have quite a fight on your hands.

This introduction tells you that the engineering profession is the master of construction, both by conventional means an through the use of nanoprograms. This is far away from the truth since Traders have the same base as Engineers (they can increase their skills 5 points each level as Engineers) and in addition to that they have a huge tradeskill buff that will put the engineering class far behind. It sounds logical for a profession like Engineers to be master of creation since they have titles like mechanics, chief engineer etc.

Take a look at this sentence, "The Engineer is the master of construction, both by conventional means (ie. weapons,armor,crystals etc) and through the use of nano programs (ie. the bot)." - this is a lie, we have a good base, but so do the traders. If Engineers at some point could get better than traders will this statement be the truth. But today will engineers and traders be equal if engineers get the buffs from a trader, otherwise will the trader be superior.

From the online manual about the Traders
"Roll up, roll up! You won't find a better profession than the Trader! Discounts, wares and credits galore. I tell no lie! I will even give you my no questions asked, 100 percent, money-back guarantee, and you can't beat that. Are you considering joining the trading business? Great choice. As a Trader you'll have access to materials and wares all across Rubi-Ka at the very best prices. That Soldier needs an implant created? Buy cheap, sell high. That Fixer needs a gun made? Buy cheap, sell high. That Nano Technician needs a nano crystal? Hehe, you've got it; buy cheap, sell high. The market is your oyster. But say, you look like you have an itchy trigger finger. No problem. Give us a gun and we'll use it alright, but let us use our nano programs and I'll take some of an enemy's skills and give them back to me. And I won't even charge them for it! He-he. Hey, I'll even swap minds with an enemy and control them that way. For no added cost, I'll increase the armor and skills of a friend through the sacrifice of my own skills. Hey, that's what we do; make transactions. So, how about it then? Become a Trader and be your own one-person shopping complex. Become one in 5 minutes and I'll even include this set of nano-sharpened Bronto Burger knives!"

Overview
The Trader is an unorthodox profession, the name coming from both the affinity for trade skills and the more symbolic trading or swapping of skills, health and more. He is at home in a team, as his sacrifices through nano programs are very valuable to his companions. The Trader is a very complex profession, and a very social one.

When I read this introduction it says to me that this is a trading profession, but we also know that isn't the truth. In an ideal world would you ask an engineer for his/hers services to make a weapon, crystal etc for your customer. You pay the engineer and sell it back to your customer to make profit. The engineer can make it directly but not that good QL since traders have the buffs he/she need.

We can forget about this logic since the traders have same base in tradeskills as engineers, so today are they the master of construction and don't need to ask engineers for anything. Engineers are the forgotten step in the process, but there is possible to fix that.


CONCLUSION
In a buisness situation will the traders ask an engineer to build a thing that he/she can sell to his/her customer, this way will the trader make profit. But an engineer need to be buffed from a trader to make high quality utilites and weapons, either way will the trader earn money - but this situation is destroyed since the trader can forget all about the development work (by the engineer) since they can do it theirself.

This issue can be fixed simply by adding an nanoline for engineers (that for example uses psymod and sensimp, dark blue skills for engineers) that buff half of the traders buffline and is selfonly. This way will perhaps the trader ask an engineer to build some utilties for them as they are missing the "60" points needed for this, and the engineer will ask traders for the buffs to create high quality stuff (either way will the trader make money of this as they should)

With this fix will traders still be best at tradeskills when both are selfbuffed, and engineers will be best when traders help them with buffs. This is not intended to be a nerf of any kind, but only to give engineers a little buffline to make engineers the master of construction - but only when the traders help them.
There is another way, but this solution is not possible since the game is released. If the traders skills caped earlier (4 points each level instead of 5) than engineers skill would this also be balanced. Trader would still be better since they have their buffs, but when they buff the engineers would he/she be the master of construction. Anyway, this is the ultimate solution if the game wasn't released. So the best way, I think, is to give engineers a little buffline.


The online manual is very confusing, and should be rewritten. Specially clear the fact that Traders are best at buffing their weaponskills and nanoskills by 173 points (?) and all of the engineering skills by 120 points. And remember to clear that is second of creating weapons and other utilities, but the step between first and second is about 120 points, ie. 24 levels...

If you think the manual is written in a rush, why do traders still have titles like salesman, COE etc and engineers tiltes like mechanics, chief engineer etc.

Please ask any newbie this (that haven't played this game before): who he/she would ask to fix his/her destroyed weapon, the engineer or the trader.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Noer
As long as trader-buffs are obtainable from other professions engineers would be far superior in tradeskills if they got items to boost their tradeskill attributes more than they have now.

Now the problem I have with that statement is this:

Go tell a new player who creates an engineer to make a build things, that he has to wait until he a high enough level to camp the foremans mine and repeatedly kill TIM, until he gets the drop, and then go hunt the modfied A-4000 in Avalon and also do team mission until hes blue in the face to find the crystal

I suspect his reply will be something along the lines of "So what the hell do I do until I get to 'x' level?" and he would be right to say this. We shouldnt have to buff beg to be good at what are class is supposed to be good (best) at by default! (and I dare say even with the buffs we arent 'superior' it probably just restores parity)

Engineers need something (nano, items, whatever) that scales with level so the Engineer is useful to teams/other players/himself regardless of the level he is currently at. All those items do is force the leveling treadmill just so the fabled level can be attained and the camp-a-thon can then begin, in the hope that maybe, maybe the required kills can be made, the correct drops found and only _then_ will he be any good as an engineer.

Sorry Noer, while I have respect for what you have achieved that like me saying.......

"Hey dont make any positive changes to the Trader heal (like they are asking for) make it so that if they find 3 high level, camped, rare drop items then the heal will work like is used to, other than that leave it as is, or better yet, nerf it down some more"

I suspect alot of Traders wouldnt be very happy about this, its this is only regarding your heal (first example that came to mind) not even the Traders 'primary' class focus.

[Plasmatorch]

Originally posted by CountNerfedalot

The Engineer is the introvert. He is a gadgeteer and a geek. He builds robots and tools and should be able (and required) to bootstrap himself up to his highest skill potential through self-made tools and gadgets that enhance his tradeskill capabilities. Just as his combat droid enhances his combat capabilities. He can be pictured as the mad scientist or reclusive inventor.

The Trader is the extrovert. He gets things done by manipulating or coordinating the strengths and skills of others. He's the kind of guy who can take a brilliant technical idea and actually turn it into something that can be mass-produced and marketed. He should be at his best when he can combine the base output of others into something greater than the sum of its parts.

In game terms though, especially within the confines of AO's system as it exists today, it is a bit harder to flesh out the trader's strengths in those multiplayer terms. What would fit well is if the Engineer's best products were useful only to himself, while the Trader's best products would be equivalent to the Engineer's and be useful to others BUT would require sub-components only others (like engineers, NTs, mabye Doctors) can provide. To make that work though, would require a large selection of tradeskills and crafted items interconnected at all levels from QL1 through 200. A very large amount of design and development work. Work which SHOULD have been done before beta, like a lot of other work that STILL hasn't been done, but that's spilt milk under the bridge.

The alternative fair and reasonable quick-fix for Funcom would be to boost Engineers' trade-skills through self-made tools such that engineers and traders have equivalent capabilities AT ALL LEVELS. Engineers would get their capabilities through their toys which cost time and money to make but last forever, while Traders get them through buffs which require NCUs to run and are temporary.

The other major differentiation between Traders and Engineers is pets. Some people love pet classes, with all the fun you can have bossing them around and RPing with them and such. Other people hate pet classes, with all the hassles of pet pathing, imprecise control and clumsy interface issues. Making Traders and Engineers EQUAL masters of the tradeskills gives the players the freedom to choose which STYLE of play they prefer without having to sacrifice tradeskill capabilities. Getting good at tradeskills requires more than enough sacrifices as it is without adding more.

first off lets start with the definition of an Enigneer

Main Entry: 1en·gi·neer
Pronunciation: "en-j&-'nir
Function: noun
Etymology: alter. of earlier enginer, from Middle English, alteration of enginour, from Middle French engigneur, from Old French engignier to contrive, from engin
Date: 14th century
1 : a member of a military group devoted to engineering work
2 obsolete : a crafty schemer : PLOTTER
3 a : a designer or builder of engines b : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering c : a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
4 : a person who runs or supervises an engine or an apparatus

Now the definition of a [B]Trader{/B]

Main Entry: trad·er
Pronunciation: 'trA-d&r
Function: noun
Date: 1585
1 : a person whose business is buying and selling or barter: as a : MERCHANT b : a person who buys and sells (as stocks or commodities futures) in search of short-term profits
2 : a ship engaged in the coastal or foreign trade

Both of theese were taken form the foremost authority on word meaings

http://www.m-w.com Merriam-Websters web dictionary

I am sorry to say zloty's but the fixes you propose would not fix anything in the game for the engineers. An engineer is not a introvert as you say read the definition of one and a trader is not someone who goes around making things for people. A trader is someone who buys products form people who make them and sells them for a profit. I think traders should have some competance in tradeskills but no to the lvl that engineers have since like I have stated in this post

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=38156

traders do not go to school to study the hard sciences that engineers do. They do to school to study the flow of goods "supply and Demand" is a traders specialty not making of the products demanded. Though a trader should have enough compentance to know what a product is and how it is made he should not be able to make one with ease.
here is a Url to the school and program I haapen to go to and what I study as a Student engineer
http://www.uidaho.edu/engr/ME/classes.htm
and as a backdrop here is the link for the businees/Econimics programs at teh same school
http://www.uidaho.edu/cbe/

as you can see a maked difference in the curiculums studied between the engineer and a "trader"/ businessman.

All that we are asking is that the balance in game be restored and the engineer made into the profession it was intended to be and should be

[_______________Vydas]

I have a basic question.

What, exactly and specifically, is it that Engineers want to be able to do that they cannot already do?

If the answer is anything independent of a comparison to other professions, all well and good. Ask for that.

If the answer is that Engineers can do what they want to do, but don't like that some other profession can also do those things, and better, then well, you know what you are.

Seriously, if an argument can be stated regarding what you want besides a nerf to someone else, do so. I have yet to see a single idea here about what areas are lacking, except in comparison to someone else.

If there is no possible independent answer, then what you are really saying is this:

"I can do everything I need to do. I should be number one at it, too. Since someone else has better buffs than I do, they must be nerfed, because there is no need to improve on what I am able to do."

It's fine and dandy if that is the stance you want to take. But at least be honest about it.

[Krabbus]

I have discussed this issue a little in the traderforum, but there seems to be a confusion. This fix is not intended to be a nerf of any kind, the buffline I'm talking about is half of the tradersbuff and it isn't nerfing the trader class at all, it quite opposite, this is helping them to define the trader profession more as traders.

With the solution a came up with will this only make the engineer better when the trader help him out, this is how it works in real life too. The trader/salesmanager contact an engineer that can help him to develope a thing for him, he provide him with things he need to make this (ie. tradeskill buffs) and the trader pays him for the work. After that he's selling this for a profit to other people. The Engineer can also make things alone, but not as good as asking a trader for his services and knowledge, and pay him for this. But still can trader make better things as an engineer, but if he want to make something that he can't do he can ask an engineer for his assistance.

This benefits both the trader and engineer profession, they have to be a team to make good stuff and not only relay on theirself as they do today. Today are the engineer a missing step in the process...

If you look at this as a nerf to the trader profession, please explain me why you look at this as a nerf. Do you really think a trader should forget all about the engineering process (weaponsmith, eletrical engineering, mechanical engineering etc) and make it by theirself without the assistance of an engineer that have the knowledge and education?

[Maximilian]

all the different definitions of what or what not an engineer should be, there are several nagging questions I would like to post to Funcom:

Disclaimer: I am playing an Engineer for 4-5 months only, so I am not the most experienced one.

I don't want anybody nerfed!

[- Pet pathing: We live and die with our pet -> a number of resulting problems, discussed elsewhere]
[- Team helpfulness or desirability besides Beacon Warp]

- Tradeskills (let's look at them individually)

- Ring making. (-> Prices have been dropped)
You need ME exclusively (the limiting step is inserting and cutting of the ring: ME ~ qlx5).

Prof.	Skill	Buffs
Adv	6  (5)	 -
Agent	7.5(4)	 -
Eng	5  (5)	 -
Fixer	7.5(4)	 -
Trader	6  (5)	+40/80/120

Adv, Eng and Trader are almost on par concerning skill cost, minimal advantage for the Engineer. Traders can buff themselves (~ +8/+16/+24 ql) and have buffs to assist themselves (Ransack/Plunder, Deprive).

The art of ring making is almost extinguished. The number of people performing this is so low, we all could meet in the Borealis speciality shop without fearing over overcrowding the room. It is time consuming and the XP might be interesting below level 50. Nowerdays you can't even make a (tiny) profit.

- Blood plasma (very cost effective)
You need Pharma Tech for that: qlx5.

Prof.	Skill	Buffs
Agent	8  (4)	+50
Doctor	5  (5)	 -
Enf	8  (4)	 -
Eng	7.5(4)	 +62
Fixer	7.5(4)	 -
Trader	5  (5)	+40/80/120

Agents and Engineers can self buff, but have more expensive skills than the Doc (sure) and the Trader(?), which of course has the most powerful buffs (again ).

- Implants.
You need NP for that (varying requirements, depending on implant and cluster - haven't figured it yet).

Prof.	Skill	Buffs
Eng	6  (5)	 -
MP	5  (5)	+20/+92
NT	5  (5)	 -
Trader	7  (4)	 -

Clearly the domain of the MPs (self buffable and assisting buffs, see above), followed by NTs and Engis (minimal more costs) and Traders, than can't raise that fast.

- Weapon building. (Mostly broken - not all - general rule, you can't build good weapons, very few exceptions)
Needs a combination of WS, ME, EE and NP.
Cheapest skill costs for the Engineer: 21(5), followed by the Trader: 23(NP raises 4 per level, all other 5). Eventually the Fixer: 31.5 (WS raises 5, all other 4).
As an Engineer/Fixer you need either a Trader and a MP, Traders might/will need an MP.

- Nano crystals. (Interesting these days - prices have dropped, countermeasure to the fact, that most discs can only be found on Boss MOBs).
Here you need a large set of trade skills: ME, EE, QFFT for the program crystal, NP and CL for the PPPE.
Engis have the cheaper set of skills and can raise all of them 5 points per level (higher max), but cannot buff a single one of them. Traders have cheap skills, but can raise NP and CL only 4 points per level, BUT can buff 4 of the 5 skills (CL skyhigh).
So, in the end, Engineers need again a Trader and a MP, Traders might go alone or just ask a MP for NP buff.

- Armor making. (Very interesting - limited by the availablity of the <PPPE shape 'x' armor> - Boss loot only)
Actually I don't know what skills are needed for this discipline, but according to the available patterns and a comment I read most likely ME. Situation described above.

- Virral eggs. (To high that I know about)
I assume it needs classical trade skills as well, so no difference to above.

So what do we summarize?
- Engis have the least skill costs, true. But we know that the pure base skill is not of major importance, buffs rule, besides implants whose accessibility is the same for all.
- Most suited for trade skills are the Traders, because they can self buff at very early levels and will not be level restricted in the future (FC wording - no level caps on old nanos)
- All constructors need eventually an MP for the NP buff.
- Blood plasma, again the trader in advance.
- Implant swapping (and the necessary treatment buffs) are the same for all of us.

If this is intended, alright, we have to accept it. No Engi is asking for the Über-buff to get rid of buff begging - we like that . But some tiny toons (whatever) to enhance our abilities 'a bit' could help us a lot. (NO, we don't want to have a +120 buff - it is ok, that we need a trader to make the very level items)

So long,

Vermeer

[Maximilian]

Actually I wanted to post a short note about some items mentioned formely in this thread. Items that could help Engineers with their trade skills (so postulated):

-> Warlock: Indeed, I have found a

ql67 Giraldi Crystal II; needs 210 Melee Energy and 141 1HB.

and a

ql62 Adapted Notum Crystal - E=MC^2 II; needs 184 Melee Energy

Both are off hand tools only (left hand). It is to long ago, that I played my Adv, but to wield a gun in the offhand without one in the main hand - do you need the multi wield skill then?

The first one is Engi only tool. (???) The skill costs of Melee Energy are 20 (top price) and 12 for the 1 HB plus (eventually) Multi melee 20 again.
The second one needs 'only' Melee Energy.

They give tiny boosts to trade skills, but in no means worth the IP investment to wield that stuff - I doubt their usability.

So long,

Vermeer

P.S. Originally I was looking for PPPE shape 'x' armor. I would trade that stuff immedeatly for one.

[Warlock]

I think another 'dimension' to the problem (as far as the 'defined roles' goes) is that the lines between Trader and Fixer _should be_ very thin.

If we are working just from 'the definition' then a Fixer _should_ actually be an illegal trader. Using blackmarket contacts and people who deal in stolen property (fences) to obtain the items required.

The Trader would use legitimate channels, the price would be good and the quality high (and the items available in bulk if required), the Fixer would be able to obtain those 'hard-to-find' items, price would be high, quantity extremely limited and the quality possibly dubious (with the associated risk of the original owner catching up with you).

We can see from the above that _neither_ profession actually manufactures anything they sell. The Trader has supply channels (Trader shop in game, and presumably the tradeskill elements of other classes) and the Fixer 'knows a friend of a friend' (Broken shop in game, and presumably the tradeskill elements of other classes too).

I'll be the first to admit though that neither of these 'in game' mechanisms satisfies the expectation that the 'definition' generates. But then the Traders in-game abilities do no match the expectation of the 'definition' either, which I think is the root of the problem.

[Sean-Roach]

Okay, a few ideas. Some of them repeats, either my own or anothers.

Tradeskill boosting gear. How about some way to "equip" any 6 nano's as armor? A special shoulderpad that can take one of each of the bright, shiny, and faded nanoclusters, within 50-150% of its QL. This item assembled from various items already found in even the lowest level mission. Final result equippable only by engineers. Give the benefits of the nanoclusters, filtered to limit the result to tradeskill advantages by proactively reducing combat effectiveness. (Yes, you CAN put a shinng nanocluster of Suppressive firing, QL200, for a +105 in SMG, but the QL200 shoulderpad itself drops your SMG skill by 600 first, so the net increase is -495). Have the "armor" reduce all combat, team, and hunting skills in this manner, so the only use is in a very safe area, like a tradeshop or apartment, to work on tradeskills.

Even allow Engineers to stack nanoclusters, up to three of the same cluster, by implanting one, and equipping two in these shoulderpads.

The shoulderpad should be able to be "hacked" to destroy all nanoclusters, to free the thing up for an upgrade. Upgrading should be a matter of adding only one or two current level items, in QL, to the existing unit, before re-applying new nanoclusters.

Bots to aid in tradeskills. This would be great.

How about a "Fry's". A shop where only engineers are welcome, where the components themselves are somewhat cheaper than in the new tradeskill section of general stores.

Give Engineers the ability to "reverse engineer" any item. At least any item for which there is a recipe for. This should require the same skills, or slightly more skill, than it takes to assemble the item from those components, and about 1 in 5 components should turn up missing forcing the engineer to dissassemble more than one of the same item to get a decent analysis of the parts involved. Rather, since only 2 components are ever assembled at any one time, 1 out of 5 times, one of those items should not appear. Tools should never appear unless they are expended in the process. This should be one step at a time, and should result in minimal components. reverse engineer a nanocrystal, and you should get the programmed photon particle emitter and the prepared program crystal, at the minimum QL's of both to generate that particular QL. This also gives engineers a potential, second source, for components. Need that sheet of carbonium? Take apart a piece of armor that uses one in its recipe. Want a long composite barrel for your latest creation? There's one you can take off that gun you'll never use, in the bank. I've mentioned this idea before.

As part of the suggestion above, I'd say we should have recipes for everything in the game. Right up to the vehicles.

Go ahead and make tradeskills better for engineers than traders, but don't hurt the traders. To balance, here's my almost final idea for this post.

Give TRADERS better trade channel controls. An estimated worth tag at the end of any information they call up for starters, telling them what the shops would sell the item for if shops sold the item, and also whether or not that item can be found in shops. Maybe an extra command that effects whatever's in the current information window that'll allow traders to /buy it straight to their inventory. Offering the current holder of the item an amount the trader can specify. Say the 'T' screen for player 'y' is showing player 'x's' Padded Love Shirt, and hypothetical trader "y" wants it, he can offer to buy it from player 'x' by simply typing /trade 12000, to offer player x 12000 for the shirt. If x agrees, he can click accept, and the item DISSAPPEARS RIGHT THEN to appear in the traders inventory, from zones away. Furthermore, you can allow anyone to use this feature, provided a trader, any trader, (or maybe fixer), is the seller. Trade would still work where a trader was not involved in the current fashion, but it'd definately give traders an advantage. No running to another zone to take possession of a new purchase. No guessing at an items value.

This way traders are better prepared for trade, in game.

Maybe, as a bone to throw to the fixers, leave the fixers with the current interface, but give them access to all three factions trade channels. Possibly let them, and only them, trade no-drop items back and forth. (Change the no-drop code itself so if either the potential recipient, or the current holder, is a fixer, the no-drop flag is ignored, but only for character to character trades.

[_____________Raymote]

First of all the terms "Trade" and "trader" should never be used specifically as "merchant" or "shopkeeper".

Where I come from (in RL) someone who learns a trade (or is a tradesman) is someone who has learned a particular skill such as plumbing, architect or (yes) engineering. (Or dunnykindiving, I'm going to keep dropping that one in )

I picked trader because I understood they were either *the* best or *one of the* best classes for tradeskills.

Can we please just accept that two classes in particular are the "masters" of tradeskills overall? Why does one have to be "better" than another.

Buffs don’t count as long as they are not self only. When I equip my shotgun I include in my calculations on what I can use, all the buffs I can get. That includes Offensive Steamroller, Wrangles from another trader (Yes traders work together to equip their stuff) and buffs from a range of other classes. When you sit down and work out what QL gun you can make as an engineer you can factor in the traders buffs anyway.

The way I see it is tradeskills such as weapon smithing are intended to encourage us to work together anyway. Sure you can raise all the tradeskills and make guns on your own, but to me it makes more sense to work together with others and combine your skills and buffs. This is a *multiplayer* game after all.

I don’t see what needs changing..

On the other hand the reqs for making some ql200 stuff are insanely high, and with ql201+ stuff coming into the game (and maybe becoming available to make?) maybe it would be a good idea to bring in some (STACKING) tradeskill buffs to make this stuff a bit more reachable. (By all means give those to engis, just don’t make them self only.)

SUMMARY My main point here is why do trader or engi need changing at all when they are equal right now (Assuming they both have access to each others buffs, which if your in a half decent guild they do)

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Raymote
The way I see it is tradeskills such as weapon smithing are intended to encourage us to work together anyway. Sure you can raise all the tradeskills and make guns on your own, but to me it makes more sense to work together with others and combine your skills and buffs. This is a *multiplayer* game after all.

Look at my post (6 posts above this one), if we give engineers a buffline will both traders and engineers help each other out, today can the trader work alone and forget all about the engineers as a part in the creation.

SUMMARY My main point here is why do trader or engi need changing at all when they are equal right now (Assuming they both have access to each others buffs, which if your in a half decent guild they do)

The change is important to make both traders and engineers work together when they need to make something. Engineers can ask for traders buff and traders can ask for the service of an engineer when they need a little higher skill.

It's sad that the engineers are the forgotten part of the process, and with this little fix will perhaps make the difference

[_____________Raymote]

You are saying Engineers should specifically be the best at tradeskills, alone and ahead.

I picked trader because they were equal best at tradeskills overall, if i decide to specialize in weapon smithing why should I have to get someone else to assemble the weapon smithing stages of my weapons?

I don't have a problem with engineers getting tradeskills buffs but why make them self only?

Engineer buffs+Trader buffs = an engineer *OR* trader with uber tradeskills.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Raymote
Can we please just accept that two classes in particular are the "masters" of tradeskills overall? Why does one have to be "better" than another.

Well basically because the as it stands you _are_ the best and the Engineers have _nothing_ they are 'the best' at (I wont go into detail but look in the Eng forum at the replies to the Professionals report thread for the specifics).

What we are actually asking for matters very little in the 'grand scheme' of the game since there arent alot of tradeskills in the game that work (admittedly this will hopefully change) although it would allow us to cast better bots self buffed (which compared with Engineers at the moment and compared to MP's is actually very little to ask since our bots have some _big_ issues)

Traders have so much other stuff going for them (not going to list, you know I'm right) and we have nothing. If Engineers were the best then Traders would still be good at everything they currently are (since we're not asking for a nerf on you Traders) but the Engineers would be the best at tradeskills and actually give our class a point (really how often are you guys asked to do tradeskills anyway? its not like we want to 0wn at PvP like you guys do)

Originally posted by Raymote
First of all the terms "Trade" and "trader" should never be used specifically as "merchant" or "shopkeeper".

Fine, Traders 'trade' skills with people. Therefore they should be retitled 'Thieves' since this is a more accurate description. Would you be happier with that analogy?