Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

[Destractor]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader



NO!

Engineers should NOT be better at modifying weapons.
Traders have been waiting just as long for that.
Traders were supposed to be the best at tradeskills.
I would call building / customizing weapons a tradeskill.

So you want traders to be best at all trade skills?
So they'd be better at making stimz than Docs.
Better at implants than MPs.
Better then engies at making weapons.


oh well sounds like you'll be leaving us for SWG in a short time anyway so you won't need to worry about these things

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
but once again, dividing up tradeskills by profession just limits what everyone can do. It's bad for everyone.

Yes it is, but everyone in Rubi-Ka can do tradeskills, it isn't limited by profession yet...

How would Engineers feel if only Traders could customize weapons? Same deal if the situation is reversed. If it ever happens, Traders deserve it as much as Engineers. We shouldnt be trying to shut eachother out.

I agree, but since engineers doesn't have any keyskills will the engineers never be best at anything since traders and fixers have all of their keyskills.

The Fixer-only implant disassembly is wrong.
If I have the same trade skills as the Fixer, I should be able to do it too. It's a tradeskill. An Enforcer should be able to do it if he wants to waste the IP.

Again, everyone can use it, but you need to be a fixer to wear it (to get the treatment buff) but a fixer will anyway be best at this since their B&E is green.

When tradeskills start getting split up, and suddenly something you want to do is Trader-only. Then you'll understand.

I haven't asked for this, but what I'm saying is that traders have all the keyskills an engineer have, so if an engineer is good at something, will the trader be better. Can't engineers have a special area they are good at? A way to do this is to give engineers benefit for 10-15% off the required skills, but let everyone else be able to use the tool too, eg. customize weapons (traders are massproducers since they can buff theirself all the time, engineers have to ask for the buff, therefor they aren't massproducers...)

Unless you are ok with only Traders being able to make certain weapons, and certain sets of armor, and certain tradeskill-only items, then don't ask for the same for Engineers. It will work both ways.

Yes, but some of them are best... traders are best in almost every tradeskill, except dissambling implants, chemistry etc... but why is it wrong to let engineers be best at a certain area?

[Plasmatorch]

Well appearently none of you have read my fix besides Krabbus.
And as I have stated this would be a balance fix.

Also unhappy trader is starting to sound like a mantra of
" I'm the best at everything no one else should come close"

Which just goes to prove my point about the traders acting like spoiled brats who got something they weren't supposed to have.
The Doctor is supposed to be the best at healing , Since that is their specialty. A trader should come in on a second spot at that, not first above the doctor. Since I do not go to a salesman to have a cancerous toumer removed I go to a doctor, Since that is his speacialty. So I ask why would I go to a salesman to make a gun? well I wouldn't I would go to an Engineer. Suprise suprise an Engineer comes up not a Trader when you go to someone to make something. so who do I go to when I want something sold? Why, a Trader of course since it is there specialty of moving things from A to B.

So I am still wondering why then do Traders think that they should be best at tradeskills? well a few of them have argued that since the tab says trade skills and Tader is their name they should be well then if that is the case.
Then lets make a new tab called Engineering guess what skills are going under it? if you guessed ME,EE,QFT,WS,CL,and TT. then you just won the million dallar prize. Since all those skills are used by OMG, RL engineers, And the definitions of the classes are gotten from RL professions, And RL word meainings.
Now that would aslo need a trade tab made so that the traders are not left out. With the skills of PSY,CL,TT.

Though in my opinion this would not fix anything the only idea that would fix this debate once and for all would be the one that I came up with a few pages back and I will put here again so you can see it again.I will also put in the statments and justifications of this arguement to show that it is a balancing idea and not a nerf. But once again like I have stated the traders would think it is a nerf because they want to be the UBER class in everything.

This following sections was quoted from an erlier post I made on pg. 7

The Trader profession is one of the top professions in combat second only to the MA I believe in PVP combat, in PVM they are in the top 3 or 4 since they can heal themselves, teammates, not to mention ransack and depirve monsters. Now I have heard of some traders complaining that they were no good in combat well DUH? you wasted you ip in tradeskills, Just becuase Trader is the name of your profession doesn't mean you have to have he highest tradeskills. And you are not forced to add the ip to your trade skills like an engineer who has the most dark blue skills of any profession in AO.Not to mention the definition "funcom's definition " of a trader never mentions anything about being the masters of construction. If you ask me the traders are acting like a spoiled brat who has gotten something that was not meant for them and when it should be given up to the people is was meant for they kick and scream till they get their way.

Now lets look at the definition of an engineer since someone actualy tried to dabate with me on the definitions I will bring them back up and Drive my point home this time.


This section is Quoted form the online manual
The Engineer is the master of construction, both by conventional means and through the use of nano programs. His robot is his weapon and protection, and an Engineer is easily recognisable by his ever-present automated friend. The Engineer prefers to dabble in man-made items, rather than focus on other skills such as combat. That does not mean, however, that an Engineer can't defend himself. Corner an Engineer and you will have quite a fight on your hands.


Now in the game of AO "conventional means" means any other way than through the use of a nano program. SO why are traders allowed to be the best? beats me I think the Dev's just threw the enigneer profession together in a couple days and called it good. Never looking at the Definition of an engineer that was probably made at the last minute just so there was one.

Now one way to fix this would be called a NERF by the traders since they want to be the UBER class in everything.The first step would be to make all the traders tradeskills Light blue with the following excluded,Psychology,complit,tutoring. those three should be kept the green color that they are now for the reason that a saleman/Merchant needs to understand computers and people to better be able to move goods form the person /machine that is selling to the person /machine that is buying. Second the light blue tradeskills should only be allowed to be advanced by 4 units per lvl. This would allow the engineer/Doctor to be the "master of construction through conventional means" but yet allow the trader still to have a high "affinity" to the tradeskills. A fully buffed trader could then come close to an Engineer/Doctor in thre tradeskills. but still show that all they have for trade skills in an "affinity"and allow the engineer to the master of construstion they are supposed to be.

I put the doctor profession in since the doctors should be the master of the pharmecutical/Chemical tradeskills. So the engineers are not the only ones surpassed by the traders. Not to mention why did the engineer profession end up with the "philosophers stone" nano since all it adds is Pharmatech and chemistry that nano sounds like it was meant for a doctor. Just more evidence that the engineer profession was Thrown together.

while on the subject of nano's I would like to say this. The addition of a nano buff to the engineer class would only be disasterous to the game balance and beside that is the specialty of the Mp . Also I think that tradeskill buffs for the enigneer would be upsetting to the balnce of the game also since that is the traders area of specialty. Besides any self respecting engineer should not have to buff their tradeskills. The reason an Engineer is supposed to be the master of construction is that they have given up all other skills so that they can specialize in that and be the best "which they aren't". where as a trader is more of a "jack of all trades" not specializing in one but having many at his disposal.

Now I know that as soon as some traders reads this he will start Flaming away and acting like that spoiled little brat wich will add more creedence to my point and argument. So go ahead and flame and just show how GREEDY you are and prove my point for me.

--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
Now one way to fix this would be called a NERF by the traders since they want to be the UBER class in everything.The first step would be to make all the traders tradeskills Light blue with the following excluded,Psychology,complit,tutoring (...) Second the light blue tradeskills should only be allowed to be advanced by 4 units per lvl. This would allow the engineer/Doctor to be the "master of construction through conventional means" but yet allow the trader still to have a high "affinity" to the tradeskills.

A fully buffed trader could then come close to an Engineer/Doctor in three tradeskills. but still show that all they have for trade skills in an "affinity"and allow the engineer to the master of construstion they are supposed to be.

A Trader would still be best when all professions are selfbuffed, but if the traders buffs the engineer would that person be better than the trader in tradeskills - that's why I suggested the minor tradeskills buff for engineers in the first post - to balance this to what it should be like... and making it stack and others too would benefit both traders and engineers...

The ideal world would be like this:
* Traders can only raise their tradeskills (where they have buffs) only 4 points each level
* Engineers can raise their mainskills by 5 points each level, but don't have any buffs for them.
This way would a selfbuffed trader be best in tradeskills, but if the trader gives away the buff to an engineer would this person be the "master of construction"

while on the subject of nano's I would like to say this. The addition of a nano buff to the engineer class would only be disasterous to the game balance and beside that is the specialty of the Mp . Also I think that tradeskill buffs for the enigneer would be upsetting to the balnce of the game also since that is the traders area of specialty. Besides any self respecting engineer should not have to buff their tradeskills. The reason an Engineer is supposed to be the master of construction is that they have given up all other skills so that they can specialize in that and be the best "which they aren't". where as a trader is more of a "jack of all trades" not specializing in one but having many at his disposal.

Let everything stay at it is, and just implement a new buffline based on PsyMod/SensImpr that is half of tradersbuff and stacks - then would most of the problem be solved...



Traders have the tradeskill buffs, therefor are they the massproducers, since they can buff theirself whenever they need it, engineers can't do this and need to ask whenever they want to make a special item a customer or theirself need at the moment. For me it seems like the engineer is not supposed to sell a lot of stuff but make something special for the customer, for example to customize a weapon since it needs knowledge to do this. Traders shouldn't be so good as engineers in this area since they are the massproducers and are following recipes

[Plasmatorch]

Originally posted by Krabbus
A Trader would still be best when all professions are selfbuffed, but if the traders buffs the engineer would that person be better than the trader in tradeskills - that's why I suggested the minor tradeskills buff for engineers in the first post - to balance this to what it should be like... and making it stack and others too would benefit both traders and engineers...

The ideal world would be like this:
* Traders can only raise their tradeskills (where they have buffs) only 4 points each level
* Engineers can raise their mainskills by 5 points each level, but don't have any buffs for them.
This way would a selfbuffed trader be best in tradeskills, but if the trader gives away the buff to an engineer would this person be the "master of construction"

Let everything stay at it is, and just implement a new buffline based on PsyMod/SensImpr that is half of tradersbuff and stacks - then would most of the problem be solved...



Traders have the tradeskill buffs, therefor are they the massproducers, since they can buff theirself whenever they need it, engineers can't do this and need to ask whenever they want to make a special item a customer or theirself need at the moment. For me it seems like the engineer is not supposed to sell a lot of stuff but make something special for the customer, for example to customize a weapon since it needs knowledge to do this. Traders shouldn't be so good as engineers in this area since they are the massproducers and are following recipes

Ok Krabbus lets do the math. And my math was done from a lvl 200 perspective. So I will use only one skill to make my point clearer. Also note that I do not know if theese figures are correct since I am only lvl 128.
as it is now.
Engineer : Mechanical engineering 5 pts./lvl = 1,000
Trader : Mechanical engieering 5pts./lvl +buff = 1,125

After the fix that I propose
Engineer : Mechaincal enigneering 5pts./lvl = 1,000
Trader : Mechaincal engineering 4pts/lvl +buff = 925

After the fix as I stated the trader would still have a high affinity for tradeskills yet the engineer would still be the master of creation through normal means as they should be. Also theese figures do not take into account for tutoring devices. So theroticly the trader could still be better than an engineer after the fix I propose only if the engineer did not invest in tutoring.

And not to mention Krabbus I should not have to go to a trader to get a buff on what I supposed to be already.Also a trade skill buff for engineers is a bad idea since I stated erlier it is the traders role to buff and "trade" skills and abilities. I am not asking for something that would infringe one someone else's Role in AO. All I am asking is that I be given the one I am promised to have and that I should have.

--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
Ok Krabbus lets do the math. And my math was done from a lvl 200 perspective. So I will use only one skill to make my point clearer. Also note that I do not know if theese figures are correct since I am only lvl 128.
as it is now.
Engineer : Mechanical engineering 5 pts./lvl = 1,000
Trader : Mechanical engieering 5pts./lvl +buff = 1,125

After the fix that I propose
Engineer : Mechaincal enigneering 5pts./lvl = 1,000
Trader : Mechaincal engineering 4pts/lvl +buff = 925

You have forgotten the caps, at level 200 with all abilities maxed, will you have 719 points in a green skill (5 points each level) and 659 points in a light blue skill (4 points each level) - the difference is 60 points.

Both professions selfbuffed will the trader have 60 more points than engineers (779 vs 719) but if the trader buff the engineer would the engineer have 839 points, wich is 60 more points than the trader - that's why I suggesting the half buff...

And not to mention Krabbus I should not have to go to a trader to get a buff on what I supposed to be already.Also a trade skill buff for engineers is a bad idea since I stated erlier it is the traders role to buff and "trade" skills and abilities. I am not asking for something that would infringe one someone else's Role in AO. All I am asking is that I be given the one I am promised to have and that I should have.

We can't change the skillcolors when the game is allready released, but to balance it like you are suggestion we can introduce a new buffline for engineers - but I guess many traders won't like this... I think it's strange that the skilldesigners didn't see this

[Highorbit]

Assuming that we do manage to get buffs to equalise this, why do they have to be based on Psy mod / Sense Imp?

As you said we have the most dark blue skills of every profession and those are two of them.

Obviously if they were relatively low level this would be a problem as a 200 - 300 SI and PM isn't a problem.

But if we go for high level nanos then 600 - 700 SI and PM becomes a huge problem. And many people just won't be able to spare the IP for it until very high level. All of the clusters for these skills conflict as well, both with me normal implants (MC and TS) and the trade skill implants (ME, EE, QFT and WS).

If we are going to ask and push for buffs I think we should at least base them around skills that we already have.

Finally, I would far prefer to have to build an item to do this... that would be quite cool and fit in nicely with the profession :-)

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by HighOrbit
Assuming that we do manage to get buffs to equalise this, why do they have to be based on Psy mod / Sense Imp?

Hehe, I just wanted a reason to keep raising my PsyMod and SensImp

Finally, I would far prefer to have to build an item to do this... that would be quite cool and fit in nicely with the profession :-)

Sounds nice But are we on the right track? Are engineers supposed to be "Master of Construction"? Can we get some feedback from the developers?

[Sean-Roach]

Okay, engineer buffs, pro and con.

Pro. Easier to implement. Easier to balance.
Con. Less in character, okay, that's true.

These pros and cons hold true for any of the nano-based engineer buff ideas, mine included.

Engineer tools, pro and con.

Pro. More in character.
Con. Harder to implement. Harder to balance against buffs.

This goes for tradetools, as well as "social armor", hud-slot boosters, and specialized implants.

However, the idea of suddenly being able to use a shiny EE AND a shiny ME implant...

Engineer assistant bots

Pro. More in character. Easy to balance IF the bot provides a buff to the engineer that matches what a nano-buff would be. (balancing effects as if they were nanos.)
Con. Possibly even harder to implement, (how does that healing pet work? Might be able to do whatever it does, but with tradeskills.)

Engineer alternate tradeskill paths

Pro/Con avoids the issue. Engineers still aren't as good, but they can do something unique that is still "engineery".

Examples include, specialized robots, (proposed numerous times by numerous people), summonable gear, (I proposed this at one point, if no one else had, (I doubt that)), reverse-engineering of components, (me), customization of existing gear, (several people), augmentation/degradation of existing gear, (I did, at one point,) Honestly, I can remember (some of) the ideas I had, but I'm probably missing some good ones exclusively by others in this list.

Honestly, I'd prefer to put on my mech-engineering smock, equip my elec-engineering goggles, maybe my quantum FT labcoat, etc, and prepare to do some serious lab-work fully aware that I couldn't fight for squat during that time. I even priced spacemans underwear at one point, (too expensive, too little bonus).

[Plasmatorch]

Krabbus you missed my whole point even though the game has started they still could change the stats of the traders after all they are the dev's and have acess to the code of the game all they would have to do is change the traders to only 4 points per lvl. and I would be happy. I on the other hand will not rest until I am what I was promissed and what is still in the manual.

I can accept that the traders still have a green or light blue skill(aqua colored) but that I am last in combat which I should be. I will not accept the fact That I am last in trade skills when I should be first. even if we get multiple bots to help with tradeskills which will not help since FC will make them like the Tutoring devices to where you can only use one at a time so where is the benifit there?
--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
Krabbus you missed my whole point even though the game has started they still could change the stats of the traders after all they are the dev's and have acess to the code of the game all they would have to do is change the traders to only 4 points per lvl.

This is a huge nerf, they can't do that... but they can balance it in some other ways, eg. introduce new items or buffs that increase the tradeskills of an engineer... but a selfbuffed trader with 4 points each level will outperform a engineer with 5 points each level - if the engy isn't buffed by a trader...

[Plasmatorch]

Originally posted by Krabbus
This is a huge nerf, they can't do that... but they can balance it in some other ways, eg. introduce new items or buffs that increase the tradeskills of an engineer... but a selfbuffed trader with 4 points each level will outperform a engineer with 5 points each level - if the engy isn't buffed by a trader...

is it a huge nerf to balance a game?
it is not it is called balancing the game and like I sated before at even 4 points per lvl they still have a stronge affinity for the tradeskills.
--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
is it a huge nerf to balance a game?
it is not it is called balancing the game and like I sated before at even 4 points per lvl they still have a stronge affinity for the tradeskills.

I think that would be a nerf to a profession, especially when it's possible to fix this in another way. Yes, the trader would be "best" even with 4 points each level in their main tradeskills because of their buffs, but if both profession are fully buffed will the engineer have 60 more points - therefor I want to introduce a new buffline/items that will buff up to 60 points to balance the game as it should be from the beginning.

[Plasmatorch]

REAd the title
since I have tried to reason with you and there is no point I GIVE UP
since the fix that I propoxed is truly the only way to remove dispute once and for all since adding items only prolongs the dispute once again I will will say it I GIVE UP
this board
this profession
and this game

--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
since I have tried to reason with you and there is no point I GIVE UP
since the fix that I propoxed is truly the only way to remove dispute once and for all since adding items only prolongs the dispute once again I will will say it I GIVE UP
this board
this profession
and this game

I have my own opinion, and I really don't think a nerf is the right way to do it - with other solutions than that will everything stay as it is today but engineers will be master of construction if they ever get the buffs from a trader.

Another solution to do this is to give engineers a buffline that is equal to traders buffs but drains either nano or their combatabilities (u can't fight when you are using tradeskill), but doesn't stack and is selfonly (to prevent engineers make money by buffing others and doublebuffs) - this way we will at least be equal...

[Plasmatorch]

Originally posted by Krabbus
I have my own opinion, and I really don't think a nerf is the right way to do it - with other solutions than that will everything stay as it is today but engineers will be master of construction if they ever get the buffs from a trader.

Another solution to do this is to give engineers a buffline that is equal to traders buffs but drains either nano or their combatabilities (u can't fight when you are using tradeskill), but doesn't stack and is selfonly (to prevent engineers make money by buffing others and doublebuffs) - this way we will at least be equal...

LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO

and what good will that do

answer NOTHING

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO

and what good will that do

answer NOTHING

If we are equal we could use items to buff it a little more to get better than traders by using Custom-Made Ring for Engineers compared to Custom-Made Ring for Traders

[Plasmatorch]

Originally posted by Krabbus
If we are equal we could use items to buff it a little more to get better than traders by using Custom-Made Ring for Engineers compared to Custom-Made Ring for Traders

LMAO
you still don't get it and you won't get it
so I will not waste my breathe any longer except teh fact still remains the engineer profession will never be what it is supposed to be no matter how many gadgets you add the trader will alwasys be able to out perform the engineer but I don't think you will ever get that so I told it to you.
--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???

[XtroXtreme]

(answear to Krabbus last post)
And that they where easily avilable as well I hope, since all stuff Funcom put in game latly has been team mission loot and Boss loot.

boss loot only make me want to through the game out through the window.
I guess it´s best I open the window in case I get more upset.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
(...) so I will not waste my breathe any longer except teh fact still remains the engineer profession will never be what it is supposed to be no matter how many gadgets you add the trader will alwasys be able to out perform the engineer but I don't think you will ever get that so I told it to you.

Really? How can an trader outperform engineers if they get items/buffline that is half of traders buffline? Both buffed will the trader have 60 points less if the engineers buffline is selfonly...

But there is no point to argue, but the first thing that need to be changed is to make both traders and engineers work more closely together - today are we the forgotten part. It also seems like doctors is much better than engineers in tradeskills as it is today, hehe... why so? beacuse they easily can swap QL200 imps and just ask a trader for buff, but an engineer have to ask both traders and docs...