Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

[Destractor]

Problem with us engies is that we want to help people.

I can't see us getting any buffs to help others (all the useable buffs are taken) so we look at trade skills as our saviour.

We don't like to see prof only trade skills (prefer a skill based system) but anything in this line to help us help others would improve the traders even more than us. (we have no skills that will be higher than those of a trader)

The only way I see this could be solved are engie only gadgets that reduce the amount of trade skills needed to create items, or increase the trade skills.

It FC want to give traders items they would be the best at creating they just add psychology into the requirements (name an engie with high psy)

Remember traders get wangles to help others (they are still needed after the OE patch, don't tell me otherwise) and ransacks to help them.

They may not have a bot but they do have the nanos that help in combat, and heals even if they are a little pants.

Who do traders ever need to go to to help them?

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
(...) You just can't have engineer-only tradeskills when you are not the main tradeskill class. You can't have buffs that make you better at tradeskills than the main tradeskill class. (...)

So you really want to nerf fixers since they are best at dissambling implants and hack items? That's also tradeskill you know... There has to be a special area for engineers too, perhaps modifing existing weapons is a thing for engineers to be good at? But since engineers doesn't have any keyskills it has to be engineer only or give engineer a better buff for that area than traders...

To just clear something, both traders and engineers can raise their keyskills (ME, EE, QFT, WS) by 5 points each level, and traders have a buffline up to +120 points... engineers don't have any skills that is better than traders...

Would it be a "nerf" by giving the engineers are possibility to modify weapons? It's possible to make this used by everyone, but engineers should get a benefit - lets say around 10% off the required skill since engineers don't have any keyskills... A profession like traders (massproduction) don't have the knowledge to handle the tool as good as engineers, therefor the small benefit for engineers, but traders can still use it...

[____________Customer]

This thread is getting repetative, and so am I.

but once again,
dividing up tradeskills by profession just limits what everyone can do.
It's bad for everyone.

How would Engineers feel if only Traders could customize weapons?
Same deal if the situation is reversed.
That will start a really ugly Trader vs Engineer war.
I have been waiting a year for that ability.
I have proposed many methods of implementation.
If it ever happens, Traders deserve it as much as Engineers.
We shouldnt be trying to shut eachother out.

It's ok for MPs to be better nanoprogrammers than Traders.
As long as Traders can still do it.
They can, they just dont have the buffs and it costs them more IP.

It's ok for Traders to be a little ahead of Engineers at tradeskills.
Engineers might have to wait a few more levels. Or ask for a buff.
As long as everythign still remains possible, it's ok.

The Fixer-only implant disassembly is wrong.
If I have the same trade skills as the Fixer, I should be able to do it too.
It's a tradeskill. An Enforcer should be able to do it if he wants to waste the IP.

You people rallying for Engineer-only tradeskills
will have that backfire on you if Funcom goes that direction.
When tradeskills start getting split up,
and suddenly something you want to do is Trader-only.
Then you'll understand.

I said the same thing when profession-only weapons started appearing.
It's a bad thing for everyone.
But people were too busy drooling over new toys to look at the big picture.
All the new profession-only stuff will be better than the
stuff anyone can use, and it ends up killing diversity.
We end up with less relative viable options instead of more.

Unless you are ok with only Traders being able to make certain weapons,
and certain sets of armor, and certain tradeskill-only items,
then don't ask for the same for Engineers. It will work both ways.

[Sean-Roach]

Okay, another take on the Engineers==prototype guns, Traders==mass-produced guns.

How much does a prototype cost? Compared to the production version that is.

Now, with that thought in mind, give engineers an EXPENSIVE nano. Much as our bots cost money to cast, allow us to either, lower our own skill requirements, raise our effective skills, or summon a key component, for credits. One way would be to allow us to alter existing gear in predictable ways using this approach. Turning an easily acquired component at QL X into a not-so easily acquired component at QL X + 5, or QL - 5. Might allow us to do this with non-tradeskill items as well, read guns. (The upgrade, degrade I mentioned in a different form. Customizing gear to the user.)

Another way would be to allow us to SUMMON A SHOP, with a random assortment of tradeskill components in it, that all match our current level, our current level - 5, or our current level + 5. This could be done easily enough by making a whole range of nano's, 40 to be exact. Treat it like a pet, after all both pets and merchants are NPC's. Stock it at random, but with only tradeskill gear. Charge about the price of a current level pet right off the bat, and make the cost of the materials current to those of shops the engineer might frequent. Call it tech-catalog purchases. Sort of like shopping All Electronics. "Hey, they have linesmans headsets in the catalog this month, but no more CD-drive carriages."

Suddenly we're still mediocre-good at tradeskills, but we can cobble something together with less hunting around for components than other tradeskill classes.

I'd put about 75% loot-only, or mission-reward, gear in the summoned shops. After all, the engineer can already visit the existing shops for the normal stuff. Trimmer casings, tannic acid, BUG SPRAY, weapons bases, etc.

Engineer needs to make a Level +5 item, he goes to a trader for a buff. Trader needs to make a level + 5 item, he goes to an engineer to shop his private sources.

One more thing. Don't put this in the shops. Rather give it to a few engineer playing ARK's, and make each summoned shop automatically stock one of these crystals in addition to the tradeskill items. However, give it the image of a book instead. It is, after all, a catalog. This way, a few ARKS give these things away to a few engineers. Those engineers sell/twink/give these to other engineers, and soon pretty much all engineers have been "given the catalog" by a fellow engineer.

One other thing. The nano-program should be an appropiate price in the summoned shops, appropiate to level, but the other shops shouldn't offer a dime for them.

Also, the summoned shops shouldn't offer a dime for anything at all.

And yes, the nanoprogram should be engineer only.

How does this make for more expensive components? Well, each time you summon the shop you get a random assortment of tradeskill items, with each summoning costing a fair bit of credits. Getting the items you need would be about like using ClickSaver to get the mission you need. Cast, browse, cast, browse, cast, browse, cast, got it. Probably be reasonable if the prices were a little inflated too.

I'd say the thing should only last until the engineer /pet terminates it, or zones. No merchant following the engineer around.

Could the engineers hoard it? Sure, just pop the thing in a solo mission. Would they? Probably not.

How does this compare engineers to traders and to real life? Imagine this scenario. The person comes to the trader when they have all the components, or all the components are readily available. This means that they come to the trader when they're getting more conventional stuff made. They come to the engineer when they need something made that requires that one odd component that they haven't looted yet, bought on /trade, and can't be found in the shops.

Just another idea to bat around. It takes nothing from traders, (although it might be argued, in fact I would myself, that it seems to be about like engineers getting that /warp spell. The idea of making it an insider catalog in analogy was to allieve that,) gives engineers a new better focus for tradeskills without actually making engineers better at tradeskills, and only requires the creation of three new items, the nanocrystal, the nanoprogram, and the temporary shop.

Of course, you could just make casting the nano cause a 0.0,0.0,0.0 size mob to pop into existance and initiate trade with the engineer. It still means creating the shop, but you suddenly don't have to model it.

Stream of thought.

[______________Cronos]

how about this? engis are deleted, if they want to go the pets route they get the choice to take their current level and create a MP with the same level and a full IP reset to completely start over their IP investments. if they want to go the tradeskill route, they can be a trader using the same thing, where they stay at their current level! YAY! problem solved! no more engineers! guess they couldn't last since they had nothing special! bye! always wanted to have a MP anyway!

(no, in all seriousness i'm not actually suggesting it, but i dont feel like repeating something countless others have already said)

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Cronos
how about this? engis are deleted, if they want to go the pets route they get the choice to take their current level and create a MP with the same level and a full IP reset to completely start over their IP investments. if they want to go the tradeskill route, they can be a trader using the same thing, where they stay at their current level! YAY! problem solved! no more engineers! guess they couldn't last since they had nothing special! bye! always wanted to have a MP anyway!

(no, in all seriousness i'm not actually suggesting it, but i dont feel like repeating something countless others have already said)

Bah! now you Engineers are even stealing Trader rants!

If Engineers were given tradeskills buffs, or worse, Engie-only tools,
then I propose you just get rid of the Trader class all together.
Our healing is gone. Everybody wants drains nerfed based on PvP.
Funcom wants all methods of optimization/overequiping gone (wrangles).
Just have a nice little pop-up box that allows us to change profession to
1) doctor 2) engineer or 3) crat
Then you'll all be happy.. right?
or maybe you'd just like us all permanently turned into leets.

[______________Cronos]

heh i guess what i said wasn't so clever, oh well.
quote:
"lol"

[Highorbit]

... everyone else gave up on this thread a long time ago...

1 Trader and 3 Engineers posting :-P

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
It's ok for MPs to be better nanoprogrammers than Traders.
As long as Traders can still do it.
They can, they just dont have the buffs and it costs them more IP.

It's ok for Traders to be a little ahead of Engineers at tradeskills.
Engineers might have to wait a few more levels. Or ask for a buff.
As long as everythign still remains possible, it's ok.

So, err, whats it 'ok' for Engineers to be better at then everyone else?....

Oh I see, nothing?

Yeah thats what I thought you were saying

(seems like you also have it in for Fixers now - you'll want the Fixer grid next)

So let me get this straight - as long as Traders can do everything in the game, so you never _have_ to ask anyone for anything (but if you did that would make it easier) and Traders are the best at Tradeskills (except nano programming for some bizare reason) so that everyone else comes to you, you'll be happy?

[Highorbit]

Originally posted by Warlock


So, err, whats it 'ok' for Engineers to be better at then everyone else?....

Oh I see, nothing?

Yeah thats what I thought you were saying

(seems like you also have it in for Fixers now - you'll want the Fixer grid next)

So let me get this straight - as long as Traders can do everything in the game, so you never _have_ to ask anyone for anything (but if you did that would make it easier) and Traders are the best at Tradeskills (except nano programming for some bizare reason) so that everyone else comes to you, you'll be happy?

Hehe... yes it would be obscene if engineers were actually better at erm... engineering... You know... Mech Eng, Elec Eng and even Quantum Field Tech is Engineering...

hehe

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Warlock


So, err, whats it 'ok' for Engineers to be better at then everyone else?....

Oh I see, nothing?

Yeah thats what I thought you were saying

(seems like you also have it in for Fixers now - you'll want the Fixer grid next)

Tradeskills should never be restricted to a single profession.
Yes. You're right. But what does that have to do with the Fixer grid?
They are two totally different subjects/features.
It was a mistake to make implant disassembly Fixer-only.
Any profession can assemble them. Why can't any profession take them apart?
Fixers would be better at it tho. And that would be ok.

So let me get this straight - as long as Traders can do everything in the game, so you never _have_ to ask anyone for anything (but if you did that would make it easier) and Traders are the best at Tradeskills (except nano programming for some bizare reason) so that everyone else comes to you, you'll be happy?

Traders shouldnt be able to be better at everything in the game.
Just the tradeskills they've always had the best buffs for.
That's how the profession was designed. That's what being a Trader is.
Anyone who starts an Engineer knows the profession doesn't get
buffs comparable to Traders tradeskill buffs. That's their choice.
It's part of wieghing the pros and cons of a profession.
If you feel Engineers are total gimps with nothing to offer,
then why aren't you playing a Trader?
Obviously there is a reason you're an Engineer.
There is something about the Engineer class that
you prefer over playing a Trader. YOU made that choice.
Or did you only get 1 option in the character creation room?

It's not up to me to justify your choice to play an Engineer.
I'm going to assume you're playing an Engineer because,
despite all the complaints, you actually like having a pet.
Slayerdroids are badass. Slayerdroid Transferrance makes you look badass.
You chose that Engine stuff over the best tradeskill buffs
or whatever else Traders have. Maybe you regret that choice.
Maybe Traders are just way better than Engineers.
Maybe the Engineer profession is L4|\/|3.
But if you believed that, you'd be playing a Trader.
Your own choice defeats your arguement.

You want to change the game balance, so you don't have any doubt
that you made the "right" choice. And I'm telling you that's not fair.
I'm telling you that, if you are so conflicted over that choice,
then that sounds like a couple of fairly balanced classes.
You wants stuff from one. You want stuff from the other.
I want a giant robot. I dont get one. Boo Hoo.
I dont come to the forums saying I dont have anything,
that I'm not good at anything, because I'm not the giant robot profession.

I play a Trader. That means that I'll agree with the opinion
that Traders are better than Engineers. Or else I'd be playing
an Engineer. But I am in the minority there. Because more
people play Engineers than Traders.

I weighed the pros and cons and made a choice. So did you.
We came to different conclusions. That's how professions work.
You unfortuantely cannot pick and choose from any/all abilities.
You are forced to choose one of the option sets available.
The option set you chose did not include top tradeskill status.
If your priorities have now changed, then fund an alt Trader.
But my impression is that you just really dont want to have to make sacrifices.
You want what the Engineer has + what the Trader has.

I expect you to respond with "But what does a Engie have then??!?"
And to that I can only reply, whatever it is that makes you play one.
Any abilities I point out will be countered with how useless they are.
Every profession plays that card. So either it's 'grass is always greener',
or we're all gimps.

[Warlock]

Ok it's pretty clear we arent going to find any common ground here....

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
Tradeskills should never be restricted to a single profession.
Yes. You're right. But what does that have to do with the Fixer grid. They are two totally different subjects/features.
It was a mistake to make implant disassembly Fixer-only.
Any profession can assemble them. Why can't any profession take them apart?
Fixers would be better at it tho. And that would be ok.

Ok I admit the Fixer grid comment was sarcasm, I just wanted to see how far you'd go to remove any other professions advantage in order to make the Trader more uber.

From a 'fluff' point of view, Implants are not meant to be disassembled. The Fixer is a shady underworld calss who do 'illegal' stuff. Hence 'hacking' items is their 'thing'. Since your on a 'quest' to have all tradeskills (and nanos IIRC) available to all classes, you're not happy with this arrangment. So in addition to removing any point to being an Engineer your also strying to remove the reason for being a Fixer - does this 'obsession' of yours extend to any non-combat thing in the game? (i.e. the classes should be defined by their combat ability and that alone? except of course that the Trader is best at tradeskills (i.e. everything else) where do you draw the line?)

I _personally_ think that only the Fixer should be able to hack stuff - period. There isnt enough that defines them as it is unless they are lucky enough to get grid armour. Removing all the profession specialties also makes the Agent pretty worthless too - do you realise how much _more_ unbalancing your 'everyone can potentially do everything' proposal is vs what has been suggested in this thread by Engineers?

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
Traders shouldnt be able to be better at everything in the game.
Just the tradeskills they've always had the best buffs for.
That's how the profession was designed. That's what being a Trader is.

So what are they not good at? Combat? Fraid not Traders rule at PvP its a well known fact - your 'heal nerf' stops you being good at that _as well_. Thats the problem, Traders seriously need balancing but you lot are so used to being so good everything is a nerf to you...

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
Anyone who starts an Engineer knows the profession doesn't get
buffs comparable to Traders tradeskill buffs. That's their choice.
It's part of wieghing the pros and cons of a profession.
If you feel Engineers are total gimps with nothing to offer,
then why aren't you playing a Trader?
Obviously there is a reason you're an Engineer.
There is something about the Engineer class that
you prefer over playing a Trader. YOU made that choice.
Or did you only get 1 option in the character creation room?.

Ok I started an Engineer because of the description presented at the time (here we go again....). I was under the impression that bot would be really hard (and not just a large amount of HP that hit like a girl, couldnt hold agro and couldnt path most of the time) and also that I would ba able to _build stuff_ ding, there it is right there.

I have actually got a Trader (and a Fixer and a Crat if you really must know). Until the recent 'professionals report' I continued to play my Engineer as it was hoped we would be 'fixed' soon. Since the report (which basically says everything in Engineer land is rosey) I have put in very little time with my Engineer and have been playing my alts.

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
It's not up to me to justify your choice to play an Engineer.
I'm going to assume you're playing an Engineer because,
despite all the complaints, you actually like having a pet.
Slayerdroids are badass. Slayerdroid Transferrance makes you look badass.
You chose that Engine stuff over the best tradeskill buffs
or whatever else Traders have. Maybe you regret that choice.
Maybe Traders are just way better than Engineers.
Maybe the Engineer profession is L4|\/|3.
But if you believed that, you'd be playing a Trader.
Your own choice defeats your arguement.

See above - Slayerdroids and Transference are very high end game - hardly enough justification to struggle through the lower 100 odd levels just for that! and what a disapointment it would be when you get there (Transference is only really any good for Engineers who went MA)

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
You want to change the game balance, so you don't have any doubt
that you made the "right" choice. And I'm telling you that's not fair.
I'm telling you that, if you are so conflicted over that choice,
then that sounds like a couple of fairly balanced classes.
You wants stuff from one. You want stuff from the other.
I want a giant robot. I dont get one. Boo Hoo.
I dont come to the forums saying I dont have anything,
that I'm not good at anything, because I'm not the giant robot profession.

No I'd like some balance to begin with - there isnt any balance to change since it isnt balanced - anyone can see that!
Well you could always charm a bot if you really wanted one

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
I play a Trader. That means that I'll agree with the opinion
that Traders are better than Engineers. Or else I'd be playing
an Engineer. But I am in the minority there. Because more
people play Engineers than Traders..

Engineer numbers dwindled when the report came in - you may be way wrong here - not that there were many of us to start with.

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
I weighed the pros and cons and made a choice. So did you.
We came to different conclusions. That's how professions work.
You unfortuantely cannot pick and choose from any/all abilities.
You are forced to choose one of the option sets available.
The option set you chose did not include top tradeskill status.
If your priorities have now changed, then fund an alt Trader.
But my impression is that you just really dont want to have to make sacrifices.
You want what the Engineer has + what the Trader has..

Hang on, your suggesting we remove all the class restrictions from abilities. So the only 'pick and chose' would relate to skill colours! You'd end up with 2 classes, a main combat class (that could do Tradeskills) and a Tradeskill class (that could fight)

I'm not even going to bother with the last bit since you have already failed to state _anything_ and Engineer is good at.

Your suggesting a game with cookie-cutter classes that are all capable of the same thing with varying degrees of how easy those things are to do - The removal of _any profession specific skills ruled only by profession 'advantages' in certain skill areas. That will never happen - Why cant you just understand that we want Engineers balanced, and therefore Engineers to be the best at something.

You liked Diablo 1 didnt you? Because thats exactly the kind of system you're proposing

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
You people rallying for Engineer-only tradeskills
will have that backfire on you if Funcom goes that direction.
When tradeskills start getting split up,
and suddenly something you want to do is Trader-only.
Then you'll understand.

Check back to the last post on p9 and you'll see that that's exactly what CodeMonkey was proposing - a new line of customisation widgets for Engineers, as well as a new, completely different line ("Import Luxury Goods") for Traders.

Sounds alright to me. Traders get a bonus, the sacred Balance of Tradeskills is not disturbed and Engineers finally have a marketable skill.

Cheers,

~R~

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by Warlock


So what are they not good at? Combat? Fraid not Traders rule at PvP its a well known fact - your 'heal nerf' stops you being good at that _as well_. Thats the problem, Traders seriously need balancing but you lot are so used to being so good everything is a nerf to you...

personally, I don't give a crap about PvP.
As earlier stated, I chose the Trade for 2 reasons:
1) tradeskills 2) healing
That was the type of character I wanted to play.
That was the type of character I had for a year.

Traders are no logner effective healers.
You can go argue that elsewhere if you like,
but almost al Traders, and most teams, feel the same way now.
50% of my character was just cut out of the game.

That is why I am so defensive about my tradeskill status.

other skills?
- debuffs do not work on mobs
- wrangles are to help other people OE. that's all.
- our crowd control is 3rd rate
- charms. heheheheehehehehahahahahahh ohhhhh sorry

I have actually got a Trader (and a Fixer and a Crat if you really must know). Until the recent 'professionals report' I continued to play my Engineer as it was hoped we would be 'fixed' soon. Since the report (which basically says everything in Engineer land is rosey) I have put in very little time with my Engineer and have been playing my alts.

same situation with Traders.
Go check the Trader board.
We get like 2 posts a day now, usually newbies.
Almost every trader I know has retired his trader.
Including me until I have a real place in teams again.
Our "Professional" has quit the profession too. lol.
And Engies still outnumber Traders approx 3 to 2.

Hang on, your suggesting we remove all the class restrictions from abilities. So the only 'pick and chose' would relate to skill colours! You'd end up with 2 classes, a main combat class (that could do Tradeskills) and a Tradeskill class (that could fight)

Um. no?
Games with complex skill-systems could not fall into that pattern.
Just because it didnt work before doesnt mean it never will.
see SWG. over 700 skills. You can generalize or specialize,
but you will only ever be capable of a tiny portion of the possibilites.

but that's not AO.
that was my personal view on how games like this should/will work.

Why cant you just understand that we want Engineers balanced, and therefore Engineers to be the best at something.

And I keep saying I agree.
Engineers should be the best at something.
Just not at tradeskills. That's the Traders speciality.
IMHO yours is pets and big combat hardware.

You liked Diablo 1 didnt you? Because thats exactly the kind of system you're proposing

never played diablo.

[secondkenlon]

The real problem here is not the obvious one.


Engies are broken. Everyone (almost) acknowledges this.

However, Traders are also heavily defective.


The problem is, Traders have some things that are too powerful (seemingly, at least: Deprive/Ransack laddering, especially in PvP, for example).

However, a whole host of trader abilities are effectively useless.

AC drains? Do nothing to the mobs and AC is relatively ineffective.

Health drains? Insufficient after the first few levels.

Team wrangles (for attack rating boosts): Cripples the trader and does not help the team enough.

Trader charm: HA! Fraggin' HA!


Also:

Unhappy Trader, why are you so focused on "No one must match me! I am teh UBAR!"

No one has proposed taking *anything* from the Traders, just making the Engies be actually *good* at what is SUPPOSED TO BE THE CORE OF THEIR PROFFESSION.

Sheesh.

[______________Cronos]

yeah unhappy trader do you really care at this point if a noob goes to an engi or a trader for the same thing? if engis just matched traders in tradeskills would it be so bad? i'm guessing after playing for 1 year you shouldn't need to do that for tips...

just let it go.

[Destractor]

OK unhappy, do you agree that engineers should be better than traders at certain trade skills, ie modifying weapons? (engineering style trade skills)

If yes then how could this come into the game without making it an engie only skill?


I don't like prf only trade skills, but I am running out of ideas.

[____________Customer]

Originally posted by L1V1D
OK unhappy, do you agree that engineers should be better than traders at certain trade skills, ie modifying weapons? (engineering style trade skills)

If yes then how could this come into the game without making it an engie only skill?


I don't like prf only trade skills, but I am running out of ideas.

NO!

Engineers should NOT be better at modifying weapons.
Traders have been waiting just as long for that.
Traders were supposed to be the best at tradeskills.
I would call building / customizing weapons a tradeskill.

That is what I'm so PO'd about.

Engineers are saying that the GOOD tradeskills,
tradeskills that allow real customization,
should be Engineer only, or Engineers should have some advantage.

That is very unfair to all the people who picked the
INTENDED and AS IMPLEMENTED best tradeskill profession.

An Engineer wanting to out-tradeskill a Trader
is like an Trader out-healing a Doctor. heh.
I know it's not a welcome thing for Engineers to hear,
but you are supposed to be second best.
Traders are to Tradeskills what Doctors are to Healing.
Engineers are to Tradeskills what Adventurers are to Healing.
That is the order in which our professions are balanced.

It doesnt matter what else we can or cannot do well.
If you need other things to fill out your profession, ok.
I agree.

But ask for something else.
Ask for something to do with robots, machines, big hardware, etc
Ask for something besides flipping the balance of Trader vs Engineer

The absolute worst case scenerio if Traders keep thier small advantage,
is that Engineers might have to ask for a buff.
That's all.

If Engineers got Engie-only stuff to make them better at tradeskills,
then got buffed by a Trader, suddenly the Engineer is the best tradeskill profession.

I just want Engineers to admit that, when looking at the professions
objectively, when comparing IP costs and buffs,
the Trader is obviously intended to be the superior tradeskill class.

I already suggested Engineers getting smaller-than-a-Traders
tradeskill buffs, that were not self-only, so that the Trader
and Engie could exchange buffs, and now both are better.
Why isn't that good enough?

If that sort of suggestion isnt good enough,
it's only because Engineers want to be the best,
disregarding the intended status of the Trader.



I realize this is getting repetative.
I feel I have adequetly covered the Trader side of the debate,
so I'm going to bow out now and leave this thread alone.

[Sean-Roach]

We'll see. They all come back.

I've suggested, at one point, giving engineers a self-buff that puts them in parity with the traders on tradeskills, that DOESN'T stack, so the engineers can raise themselves to the Exact Same proficiency as an equally skilled trader. LEAVING OUT those tradeskills that for the engineer are not bright green.

In this scenario engineers wouldn't be able to get a trader buff to stack, although a trader buff might still be superior for other reasons, (cost of casting, nano-cost of casting, duration, side-effects, etc.)

And no, I don't admit any such thing. I chose my engineer on the idea of making a tradeskill character with a pet. I figured it'd be easier to play what is closer to an EQ mage, my prime on that game, as my main character, than it would to play an EQ enchanter or EQ cleric, both classes that I've not played much, if at all.

I figured FC would make all the classes equal and important in team play, but in different ways, (healer, buffer, tank, nuker, etc.), and then allow a side advantage that each class had outside team play. I figured I'd be one of the best at tradeskills, at least in potential, but suffer on getting around, doing direct damage, etc.

I personally feel that Engineers and Traders should be two sides of the same coin. Equal at the "tradeskills", but preferably in different ways. Unfortunately, AO has a flaw in that you can't actually INVENT anything in game, this limits use of tradeskills to the tried and true formulas that FC's cleared for dispersal.

Ways that an engineer might be differentiated from a trader, while leaving them, or more aptly making them, functionally equal at the tradeskills would be.
1. Give engineers pre-buff advantage to tradeskills so that self-buffed or other-buffed both are equal.
2. Give engineers a self-buff that brings them to parity, but make sure it can't stack, so engineers can't double-buff.
3. Give engineers an open-buff, that can stack, but this I feel, infringes on the trader line more than a self-only buff that can't stack.
4. Give engineers a percentage bonus when using certain tools that bring them to parity with self-buffed traders.
5. Give engineers a new tradeskill or tradeskill function that brings them to parity, (reverse-engineering for instance, or customization beyond the factory standards.) This last leaves traders as superior for actually making stuff, but allows engineers a niche that traders can't casually fill.

Personally, I prefer points 2 or 5. 2 is the most painless to balance. Just make sure there is some clear-cut advantage to using the other classes buffs instead, (longer duration, less cost in coin or nano, no quarter to half hour combat-gimping, etc.) 5 is the more storyline approprate, but raises all sorts of issues of balance. Is reverse engineering enough? should a gun be allowed to suddenly do chemical damage? Does this make that gun too powerful? It is also more involved for the programmers, where, I suspect, dropping a new nano into the game would probably require the hour before lunch and a text editor.

The problem with 1 is that it'd make engineers on par with a buffed trader, and buffs wear off and cost nanopoints, thus, most of the time an engineer would be superior to a trader. It'd also be murder to balance as there are only certain, increases that certain buffs provide. If those increases were smeared out over a level range than at some levels an engineer WOULD be better than a trader, and at others, the opposite would be true.

The problem with 3 is simply that if the engineers could buff others and if those buffs stacked, then engineers would be taking coin away from what traders do, without reimbursing the traders for the loss of trade with non-engineers. (In the vein that to duplicate a thing, be it patent, written work, or song, for your personal use is acceptable, but to sell that duplication is wrong.)

The problem with 4 is potentially the same as the problem with 1. If the advantages were percentage based, then only at certain levels would they truly balance the two professions, while being a pain to balance at all as the effects wouldn't be the same. It'd be about like comparing the nutritional value of apples and oranges. It can be done, to an extent, but at greater difficulty than comparing two apples, or two oranges, (or even two pieces of citrus fruit.) It'd also be more involved in implementing.

Some non-tradeskill things an engineer could do, and this would make teaming more likely. Summon bridge, summon ladder, bypass lock, disable robot/probe, summon gunnery emplacement, suppress technological weapons, (all non-melee weapons cease working for a short time,) boost suppression gas, (probably be more useful to an engineer running through a 25% zone than it'd be to a group. These are engineering type things, in the vein of combat engineer, but would require some playfield changes, (the ocassional open chasm across the room, for instance, a door that is too high to reach. Differentiation between a Probe Bot and a Rollerrat. Some reason why NOT killing a mob is preferable to killing it to increase token chances. Etc.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
personally, I don't give a crap about PvP.
As earlier stated, I chose the Trade for 2 reasons:
1) tradeskills 2) healing
That was the type of character I wanted to play.
That was the type of character I had for a year.

Traders are no logner effective healers.
You can go argue that elsewhere if you like,
but almost al Traders, and most teams, feel the same way now.
50% of my character was just cut out of the game.

That is why I am so defensive about my tradeskill status.

But like you keep banging us over the head with - The Trader is good at PvP, its how the game 'works' (not neccessaruly defined) therefore it irrelevant that you didnt pick it _becuase_ of that, your still good at it.

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
other skills?
- debuffs do not work on mobs
- wrangles are to help other people OE. that's all.
- our crowd control is 3rd rate
- charms. heheheheehehehehahahahahahh ohhhhh sorry.

Then fight to have them fixed, then maybe you wouldnt be so bitter about the 'heal nerf' and would be more objective towards us getting fixed. Basically you've got loads of toys but all except one are broken, and you dont want to share that toy with anyone else.

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
Um. no?
Games with complex skill-systems could not fall into that pattern.
Just because it didnt work before doesnt mean it never will.
see SWG. over 700 skills. You can generalize or specialize,
but you will only ever be capable of a tiny portion of the possibilites.

While SWG doest _appear_ to prevent you from doing anything (since there are no classes) your choice of skills WILL prevent you from doing _top end_ stuff from Skill trees you didnt invest in (the devs have already said a droid designer wont be any good at actualy making droids in large numbers, since thats a production job not a design job, and vice versa). So there are still mechanisms in place that will prevent you from doing 'everything' (unless you do the IPR thing they are planning). AO professions are really not that different (except you dont have the option to change 'skill focus' in game)

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
NO!

Engineers should NOT be better at modifying weapons.
Traders have been waiting just as long for that.
Traders were supposed to be the best at tradeskills.
I would call building / customizing weapons a tradeskill.

That is what I'm so PO'd about.

Brace yourself because they are planning to give a weaponskill boost to Soldiers

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
Engineers are saying that the GOOD tradeskills,
tradeskills that allow real customization,
should be Engineer only, or Engineers should have some advantage.

That is very unfair to all the people who picked the
INTENDED and AS IMPLEMENTED best tradeskill profession.

An Engineer wanting to out-tradeskill a Trader
is like an Trader out-healing a Doctor. heh.
I know it's not a welcome thing for Engineers to hear,
but you are supposed to be second best.
Traders are to Tradeskills what Doctors are to Healing.
Engineers are to Tradeskills what Adventurers are to Healing.
That is the order in which our professions are balanced.

It doesnt matter what else we can or cannot do well.
If you need other things to fill out your profession, ok.
I agree.

So you want better 'medical' tradeskills than Doctors as well?

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
But ask for something else.
Ask for something to do with robots, machines, big hardware, etc
Ask for something besides flipping the balance of Trader vs Engineer.

We did - and they told us we aint getting anything. We have to work with what we got, so we're asking for our tradeskills to be 'balanced'

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
The absolute worst case scenerio if Traders keep thier small advantage,
is that Engineers might have to ask for a buff.
That's all.

If Engineers got Engie-only stuff to make them better at tradeskills,
then got buffed by a Trader, suddenly the Engineer is the best tradeskill profession..

..and shock horror you may actually have to ask one for a buff/favour now and again (like we have to every time we log in to make a decent bot at certain levels). Why is this such a problem? Every other class has to ask you for Wrangles. Every class asks Fixers to hack stuff, every class asks for Mochams and Masteries (MP or NT cant remember). No one asks an Eng for ANYTHING.

Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
I just want Engineers to admit that, when looking at the professions
objectively, when comparing IP costs and buffs,
the Trader is obviously intended to be the superior tradeskill class.

I already suggested Engineers getting smaller-than-a-Traders
tradeskill buffs, that were not self-only, so that the Trader
and Engie could exchange buffs, and now both are better.
Why isn't that good enough?

If that sort of suggestion isnt good enough,
it's only because Engineers want to be the best,
disregarding the intended status of the Trader.

because we are still not the best at _anything_ na din your solution we still arent the best and you got better in the bargain.

Engs get I think 3 tradeskill buffs (+32 B&E, +62 Chem/Pharm and +79 Disarm - if you can count disarm as a tradeskill) there is no continuity to these lines (they are all one-offs) meaning they do not scale with an Engineers level (and they are all based of dark blue skills!). They give us little-to-no practical advantage in tradeskill activities and they dont help with our primary bot-creation stats (so essentially they are usless to the engineer). In short they are only really any good for Fixers or Doctors who need a little boost to stack with their existing buffs.

Most people (Fixers/Doctors mainly) dont realise we have these buffs, and when they do the boost isnt really worth it (depending on the level of the character since they dont scale). End result no one wants them.

Engineers arent good at _anything_ (I admit this would be _less_ of a problem if the bot got 'fixed' - but we've already been told this wont happen) and have no buffs desired by other players (no one wants our AC buff since AC doesnt really make a lot of difference and takes a huge amount of NCU (I think Traders complained about the same thing?), our damage shields do pitiful damage and Soldiers reflect shields are better)

That is the problem.