Over equiping
So back to the old boring discussion of over equiping.
Well are you at Funcom going to take any kind of actions to limit over equiping, which is the reason you had to boost mobs to rediculus levels to begin with.
The suggestion of having a max QL depending on your Lvl has been the best I have seen put forth so far. Just put max QL a number of Lvls above actual lvl (15-30%). With that put into place you should be able to balance the game a lot easier.
Well I'm over that 15 - 30% mark and all I have is implants and self buffs, in one of funcoms replies about buffs and why some professions didnt have some 'obvious' buffs the word was 'teamwork' so I assume they mean the same for getting into your equiptment as well....
hey I'm a noobie dont flame me too much
Biggie, I to have higher armor and some implants with my curent MA, and even with the new PvM bug vs human mobs I fight orange mobs for any kind of challange.
So I think it is a problem with balance even if I will suffer from my suggestion.
overequiping is a problem.. but 15-30%? bah
what good are self buffs then
example, my enforcer
SELF ARMED 166 hammer at level 85.. how you may ask.. implants, brutal thug +86 2hb and expertise
now 106 with self buffs is 106/5 = 21.2 levels above myself not even figuring in implants that is 25% of my level right there.. add THREE implants and the number goes up even more.
Now lets look at different weapons!
My Enforcer arms a 166 hammer, but can only arm a 130 beam. Why you may ask? because they have different requirments. Beam uses more skill per level than hammer. How do you intend to work that into your 15-30%.. oh I know.. everyone can arm the EXACT SAME WEAPON due to its skill/quality.
Way I look at it is this. just use the CURRENT skills the player has, look at the skills needed to use that weapon and scale damage apropriately.
skill needed 100 ... current skill 50 ... max listed damage 100 ... max possible damage 50.
now this has a lot of problems with it too.. mainly that trader buffs last like 30seconds to 3 min. Just extend these timers and all is well.
I am sure I am missing something, because this is too simple to actually work, but at least it is a *reasonable* solution.
The simplest solution is simply to unequip everything we have.
This way, people that have twinked their way into much higher implants than they should be able to use, or have a much higher quality NCU belt than should be possible would have to re-equip according to the way the game is and should be.
No one should loose the equipment they have, and no one would be hurt very much by doing this.
If you are so greatly hurt by it, imagine how people feel that can never do what some have done. It makes for an unballanced game.
Which while fun for the twinkers, is not fun for the rest of the player base. A little self sacrifice to level out the game.
I know my fixer on RK2 will suffer from anything like this, but its only fair.
Until
#1 Weapons are balanced. I'm playing a level 17 fixer with a QL32 Mausser and I can tell you, without that Mausser I would be dying to greys.
#2 My 55 MA has a full set of QL65-70 Armour, Including cloak. without that AC he'd be dead very quickly. *not that he isn't now, considering the mess up with NPC mobs and minimum damage.*
SO, over-equipping is not going away anytime soon. They've basically killed the gross over-implanting. anymore and we'll all be gimped.
It is true that with mobs balanced to player overequiping they have to reduce power of MOBs at same fix to balance any reduction of power of players, not that Funcom appears to care about playability all the time, but it would be nice just for once if they took a wider view of the picture before changing one part.
I still have never seen a logical explaination as to why over-equipping is a problem.
Well...my explanation would be that it makes PvP not very much fun. I would rather play my character and level him up all the time and on occassion go try a little PvP to see where he stands with the rest of everyone else. Problem is, I go to fight PvP and I end up fighting my level 16 character against a level 18 who has better armor and weapons than my level 46. And it seems that because there are so many people who are staying at a certain level forever so that they can twink to no end, anyone who goes to PvP that just wants to do it like I do...with a regular character...will get killed by anyone they fight. Well...getting killed all the time sucks. So they stop doing PvP. So now...I cann't fight anyone that I would have a chance at killing...because all that is left are these people who spend all their time at twinking a character for PvP.I still have never seen a logical explaination as to why over-equipping is a problem.
But...I like being able to equip items that are much higher than me. I wouldn't mind having some sort of limit _in pvp_ so that you can only equip items that you can buff for yourself...but it can really help out people doing missions and soloing like that to have a much higher level weapon.
My resolve...well...I say let's just leave it alone. If I want to do PvP I guess I will just have to spend a full year on one character staying at one level twinking him. *Sigh*
But that's just my comments. And what can I say? To FunCom, I'm just another credit card number in the bank. =)
The solution is easy:
Take the quality levels of the player's equipment, average them out (you could even put more 'weight' of the average on weapons or deck belts, or ANYTHING you feel like weighting it towards), then average this with the char level (again, weight it as needed) and... that's their level as far as conning and the game.
A level 20 soldier twinked out with 125 implants, armor, and a gun will find himself running level 72 missions (assuming 50/50 level/equip ratio). He'll also find himself perfectly nailable by anyone at level 80, and guess what? A level 30 player is... out of range. Playahata gets killed. Oh, did I say that out loud?
A level 20 soldier with nothing twinked out, lacking good armor, poor equipment, struggling to survive... end up being able to run level 17ish missions, without the difficulty going up too much. Allowing him to get cash, get his equipment straight, and get back on his feet.
Exploitable? Not if you're careful about implementation:
-When considering the player's spectrum of equipment, their lowest level stuff will barely be counted, only their higher level. If they have a ton of low level, it will start to bring it down - however a level 200 MA dual-weilding 2 level 1 swords in an attempt to bring his game-level down will quickly find they do nothing to make it easier.
-With different ratios of equipment level to player level, this can kept from getting out of hand for the people whom frequently need to overequip - a pistol user putting on level 120 pistols at level 100 will only get an increase around 10 levels (ie the game will con him like a level 110), even if his armor is all slightly above.
-The 'downgrading' effect that would help people poorly equiped would be capped and would be much weaker than the overequip effect - 75% level, 25% equipment with a level cap if the equipment was bringing their level down as an example.
-Teaming rules would still require an actual level difference though, and AO devs would HAVE to publish what the exact differences are - this would prevent that over-equiped level 20 soldier from teaming in a level 80 hunting party just because he can now con green to them.
You'd still have to be careful about docs equiping ultra-crappy items to try and take themselves out of range of other players while they maintain healing capabilties, but with the downgrade cap this shouldn't be too bad.
In addition, Funcom would also make it so after someone enters a 25% or lower zone, deequiping or downgrading equipment doesn't allow you to con lower (to prevent people from taking themselves out of level range at will), however equiping higher will effect immedietly (that way they can't zone in with crappy equipment and upgrade to keep a lower con level). That last part has the potential of letting them con UP from a green to stop them from attacking... but that's kinda pointless, especially since they can't con back down to attack.
With a game so dependent on equipment levels, equipment has alot to do with the level of the character - and since AO has quality levels for equipment, it's easy to do some math that gives a much clearer estimate of what players can do. Players that con green in PvP would truely be green, and you'd know that orange was out of your league from now on. Missions would be easier for those trying to run missions and what not, at least until their equipment was optimized.
Fine as is
Why are people calling for more nerfs?
I understood this whole argument before. I didn't agree with it, but I understood it. The problem was with PvP: For example, Level 50 Agent with ql 120 rifle kills level 45 opponents with one hit (as well as level 60 opponents who don't want to bother with the strategy & careful planning involved with good character building/equipping). Personally, I had no problem with this at all. Snipers are supposed to kill with one hit; that's what they do. (And no, I do not play an Agent.)
Funcom listened. Now we have no more one-hit kills in PvP. But there are *still* players calling for player-level vs. equipment-level checks? So what is the current problem at hand, here?
Jealousy. Nothing more.
There are a lot of players in-game who spend a vast amount of time, resources, & planning to build the best characters possible. There are also plenty of players who don't feel like bothering. These are the people who get jealous, because they don't performs as well as the next guy... in PvP, PvM, whatever. That's your own fault. Stop trying to place the blame on 'poor game system design'. Your character could be optimized too, if you wanted to devote the appropriate amount of time & thought.
And yes, before someone else makes mention of the fact: I know there are plenty of characters who start out with an advantage; low level characters who are 'fed' by higher-levels (or by that player's own high-level alternate character). Yes, there are level 20-30 Yalm pilots out there. Deal with it, people. I used to feel jealous as well, but the high-level characters earned their cred. If they want to use it to buy gear for their low-level friends or alternates, that's their right. (And no, I do not own a Yalm.)
There are professions (Enforcers & Traders come to mind) which are specifically designed to equip the best gear possible for the player's given level. If we nerf the advantages of these professions, then we would need to do likewise for all other professions, to bring them in balance (player-level vs weapon-level checks would mean very little to a Meta or an MA, for instance). If this was to be implemented, we'd be one step closer to making all professions exactly the same! I'm seriously starting to think that's what some people want.
Funcom, please don't punish the intelligent players & strategists any more than you already have. Please don't make allowances for poorly-equipped players by giving them easier missions. Don't make anything easier. Levels 1-15 are a cakewalk, the higher levels of play are extremely challenging, & all the Lords of PvP have but some time & effort into becoming great (with the exception of the grid campers... you guys still suck). This is all as it should be, IMO. I apologize if I'm being rough on the 'casual gamers' out there. But ask yourself: What would be the point of playing the game in the first place, if you can't enjoy the fruits of your labour? And don't tell me 'leveling'. If equipping was capped, mobs were nerfed, & all the professions were perfectly balanced (i.e., exactly the same) then I'd be able to sit back, watch the tele, eat nachos, & talk on the phone, while mindlessly chugging through levels in AO, all the way up to 200.
-Templar Red
We donīt cry nerf, since we donīt ask to make a player less powerful. You donīt need as powerful weapon or armor as we want to reduce power of MOBs as well.
If you just want to be able to oneshot kill any average player that donīt have the recources etc of your character you donīt have my sympaties though. In that case I recomend that you get a game ofline game in wich no other player have to suffer from your wish of being uber.
Lets face it, you need sponsors to twink your character since you donīt get the cash to do it on your own and all characters donīt have it and therefore it should be removed from the game to keep things equal. That is FUN for EVERYONE and not just for a those with twinked characters.
Yes you did:Originally posted by Spook
We donīt cry nerf, since we donīt ask to make a player less powerful.
As I stated before, this will severely declaw every Enforcer & every Trader. The nanos of these professions are designed specifically to equip the best weapons possible.Originally posted by Spook
Just put max QL a number of Lvls above actual lvl (15-30%).
Did I say I do this? No. I've never killed any other character with one shot. To be quite honest, I suck at PvP. I lose more duels than I win, but I still have fun.Originally posted by Spook
If you just want to be able to oneshot kill any average player that donīt have the recources etc of your character you donīt have my sympaties though.
I have not been 'twinked'. I started playing the game with zero cred, just like everyone else. I've never asked for handouts from other players, & I've been given very little. I have no 'sponsors'. I've earned what I have by myself. All of my gear is higher ql than my level, & I solo yellow mobs with little difficulty at level 63. If I need better gear, I buy it. If I need money, I do missions... as many as I need to, until I can afford the gear I need. Quite simple. Honestly, I have no idea what you're doing wrong. I'm not going to make wild assumptions about your playing style, like you have done with me. But don't place blame on others, or call for things to 'be removed for the game to keep things equal', just because you haven't got the hang of it yet. Granted, this is not an easy game. If it was easy, I would've grown bored & stopped playing by now.Originally posted by Spook
In that case I recomend that you get a game ofline game in wich no other player have to suffer from your wish of being uber.
Lets face it, you need sponsors to twink your character since you donīt get the cash to do it on your own and all characters donīt have it and therefore it should be removed from the game to keep things equal. That is FUN for EVERYONE and not just for a those with twinked characters.
-Templar Red
I still didn't get a logical explaination as to why over-equipping is bad. Spook was onto something by explaining how it was a bit sad for him to not be able to pvp those who use all their time on making their character good for pvp, while he himself is more of the kind who like to adventure and play, and ended up stating that maybe we should just leave things as they are.
I have seen 500 posts with "the solution to solve over-equipping", but not a single time have I seen a well-thought-it reason as to why it is a problem in the first place. To me it seems that most of you guys aren't thinking.
Sorry, I said Spook, it was supposed to be iLL.
bottom line by Templar Red is good:
>> I have not been 'twinked'. I started playing the game with
>> zero cred, just like everyone else. I've never asked for
>> handouts from other players, & I've been given very little. I >> have no 'sponsors'. I've earned what I have by myself. All of >> my gear is higher ql than my level, & I solo yellow mobs with >> little difficulty at level 63. If I need better gear, I buy it. If I
>> need money, I do missions... as many as I need to, until I can >> afford the gear I need. Quite simple. Honestly, I have no idea >> what you're doing wrong. I'm not going to make wild
>> assumptions about your playing style, like you have done with >> me. But don't place blame on others, or call for things to 'be >> removed for the game to keep things equal', just because you >> haven't got the hang of it yet. Granted, this is not an easy
>> game. If it was easy, I would've grown bored & stopped
>> playing by now.
>>
>> -Templar Red
If you had noticed my earlier post you would have noticed that I DO over equip my characters, as much as possible actualy. But that does not make it fair to those who donīt, no matter if it is because the donīt know whow the game works (Funcoms fault since there is no proper manual, and a lot of us have to explain how thing work for newbies since Funcom donīt) or donīt have the time to twink the characters (take a lot of time fixing implants as well as running around shops doing that, and a lot of people donīt find that fun).Originally posted by reggie
I still didn't get a logical explaination as to why over-equipping is bad. Spook was onto something by explaining how it was a bit sad for him to not be able to pvp those who use all their time on making their character good for pvp, while he himself is more of the kind who like to adventure and play, and ended up stating that maybe we should just leave things as they are.
I have seen 500 posts with "the solution to solve over-equipping", but not a single time have I seen a well-thought-it reason as to why it is a problem in the first place. To me it seems that most of you guys aren't thinking.
Lets face if you look at it objectivly it is not fair. If I meet any none twinked character of my lvl I sweep the floor with them. In PvM which the game is all about Funcom have Increased MOBs power level to make a challange to those that do and are able to twink, but that leaves the rest out in the cold with a game they payed for and not are able to enjoy. Therefore I think it would be better if mobs got reduced in power as well as our equipment maximum was limited as well by our lvl. Even if it means that some of us canīt masacre other players as easily.
If you can self buff and use the stuff you have on, then that is by design.
If you can self buff and get some buff from another character, then that is by design.
These people I have no problem with.
The problem is the people who used a bug to be able use these higher level items. The main one is the treatment bug to get higher Implants.
Yes I did know about it, but I did not use it.
So the people who did not use a bug equip an item, would have no problem with FC de-equipping them
You have a very good point here, but this won't be a problem for very much longer. Those characters 20th level characters who were running around with heavy-duty ql 70 implants installed are soon going to reach 70th level. Then they find that their ql 70 implants aren't enough anymore. Eventually, they'll all need to break down & spend some IP to raise treatment. This problem will resolve itself in time.Originally posted by Miel
The problem is the people who used a bug to be able use these higher level items. The main one is the treatment bug to get higher Implants.
Yes I did know about it, but I did not use it.
So the people who did not use a bug equip an item, would have no problem with FC de-equipping them
Although it is admirable that you're looking out for the newbies, I still don't agree. What you're proposing here is simplifying the game mechanics to make it easier for beginners & (pardon my bluntness) stupid people. People learn how the game works by playing it. FC shouldn't give us a manual to hand-walk us through the game, even if they could (it would be huge!); what fun is that? Many of us would quickly grow bored if the game was simplified by limiting our ability to custom-tailor our characters.Originally posted by Spook
But that does not make it fair to those who donīt, no matter if it is because the donīt know how the game works (Funcoms fault since there is no proper manual, and a lot of us have to explain how thing work for newbies since Funcom donīt)
Look at chess, for example: Hundreds of books have been written about the strategy of this game. A professional chess player with 'inside knowledge' could easily wipe the floor with a chess newbie. Do you feel that this game is flawed, as well? Is this game unfair? Would you change the rules, so that every piece can move only one space at a time? That would sure make it more fun for people who don't like to figure things out, right? And it would help balance the odds between professional chess players & idiots.
A professional chess player stacks the rules to his or her advantage. The same can be said of an experienced AO player, who knows how to build the strongest possible character, within the rules of the system.
As I said before, this is not an easy game. It's not a game for everyone. People who don't like strategy should probably play Mario, or whatever kids like these days. Not AO.
You mean lazy people? Heh, I've no patience for them. I've gladly helped newbies whenever they ask. Newbies learn; they improve & develop. But people who don't want to bother learning, or have no patience to figure the game out? Sorry, but this game is definitely not for them.Originally posted by Spook
or donīt have the time to twink the characters (take a lot of time fixing implants as well as running around shops doing that, and a lot of people donīt find that fun).
Just my opinion, & I hope Funcom's as well...
-Templar Red
reggie....
i think u havent tried to find explanation...
some good posts can explain that to u in the archive forum.
but here is few reasons, cartesian, if u like that:
definition of overequipping is:
Having the ability to keep stuff equipped when we dont meet their requirements.
then: all classes are not egals with overequipping.
-Casters cant overequip their nanos.
-MA cant over equip their fists
-User of INT/PSY armor cant overequip armor in the same way of STA /STR user, becasue there is NO buff for INT/PSY in game.
-with debuff (deprive, ransack), only casters are effected.
and:
i think this kind of remark is not necessaryTo me it seems that most of you guys aren't thinking.
MA's can overequip - I'm an MA.Originally posted by Daenis
-Casters cant overequip their nanos.
-MA cant over equip their fists
-User of INT/PSY armor cant overequip armor in the same way of STA /STR user, becasue there is NO buff for INT/PSY in game.
-with debuff (deprive, ransack), only casters are effected.
My solution above was not jealousy speaking as someone stated. I'm using ql 90 implants on my level 45 MA reroll and have a Yalmaha already. Not a point of Ip wasted. So I'd like to know exactly who I'm jealous of. Moreso, the solution would have basically kept me from killing people with an assessed level of 40ish - something that I wouldn't mind and would save some people quite a bit of frustration.
Think about it: Why won't they let a level 125 wail on a level 50? Because it's just greif killing, even though the level 125 DID work very hard to get there, it's not even remotely fair or fun.
This is in reference to the lower levels though. People like Playahata, whom exploited implants before it was fixed and -has not leveled since-. Sitting at level 33 with -a battle suit on- popping any one up to level 40ish that comes by. You can't justify that to me because it's moronic. I would die laughing if a GM forced a level buff on to him, forever destroying his 'uber' char with something most players would love to get.
If you can justify that low-level grief-killing that Playahata does, they by all means, go out and duel him for fun - I'll be busy doing missions and ignoring PvP.
Back to what I was stating - MA's can overequip.
It's as easy as:
1) Uber-implant your MA skill up. This increases damage and hit rate at the same time.
2) Implant 2H Blunt, 2H Edged, 1H Edged etc - Because ANY weapon can attack -while an MA punches- if they have the required skill for that weapon. An MA running around with a sledge will sock you upside the head with it and then punch you 5 times in between the next whack. I'm referring to non-MA weapons by the way...
3) MA's can self-buff the brawl and MA skills almost excessively - as a result, we can use our special moves much earlier than intended. At level 48 or so an MA can use a level 80ish Blessed with Thunder (or similar) high-end move long before the actual level (I'm thinking around level 40 or so). The damage isn't great on any move but BwT, but nevertheless.
Note we can't overequip weapons past stats because of certain bugs - but if they ever get fixed, we'll be able to WAAAAY over-equip those similar to the way agents can do so now.
Casters can also 'overequip' nanos in a way - all they have to do is implant their Mat Crea waaay up, maybe nab some pillows (or at least used to be you got pillows - I hear they're nerfed), and they could cast stuff well over their level.
That is true about the trader debuffs though - those hit docs, NTs, and MAs excessively hard in comparison to classes using weapons and not skills checked every time they're used.
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