Toolset Enhancement Ideas

[Rahmorak]

As it is with all weapons hitting for min damage.

You are totally missing Satenia's point... the new weapons were DESIGNED as min dmg weapons in response to the complaints about the old RK weapons hitting consistently for low dmg.

Nukes have however stayed the same.

[Linell]

but you forgot specials/perks/pets, which is where most of the damage will come from.

We were discussing how all professions have tons of possible damage buffing items but NTs have almost none. Real damage output wasn't discussed there.

That's where high min damage weapons come into play. Add all damage adds onto that minimum, and multiply by number of shots including specials and that will be a lot for the weapon professions with fast special recycles.

No one said different (or at least it wasn't talked about here).

As I said above, point was that if NT could use all damage buffing items that most of other professions can (except maybe crit buffs, since crit isn't defined for nukes ;p) damage won't be as high as with all nano damage increase perks and/or items.

[zectlmagica]

stop trolling.

[Linell]

FInally and most importantly, +%dmg is vastly over-rated as +%dmg is irrelevant if the damage is low to begin with, e.g. I would rather have 10,000-12,000 (+0%) damage than 3000-4000 dmg (+100% dmg).

I was talking mostly about how damage buffing items that only NTs can't use since they don't increase nano damage are not so powerful when you're dealing with 4.8k regular attack and how NTs have way better damage buffs (but thats why other professions have specials to even that out).

[Mastablasta]

I was talking mostly about how damage buffing items that only NTs can't use since they don't increase nano damage are not so powerful when you're dealing with 4.8k regular attack and how NTs have way better damage buffs (but thats why other professions have specials to even that out).

Problem here being that all other professions outperform NT anyway... so your point becomes lost somewhere in the DDs being spammed all over..

[zectlmagica]

Linell I breake this down very simple as u refuse too se the truth...

Regular shot for a weapon : 800

Rbp: 64ish dmg add 64/800=0.08 = 8%

So how in the **** can u say NT´s got far better dmg add items?

[Satenia]

(hope I didn't mess with calculations somewhere)

There are several factors that are missing here:

First of all UI (a level 220 weapon, game doesn't start there) being refered to as 2/1 is on the paper. As you said yourself, manual triggering will add extended delay. In addition to this 2/1 cannot be done on full def, while it's fairly easy to get todays alien and peren weapons to 1/1 full def speed. This results in even slower casting in solo situations (as most solo situations will include close combat, even for a NT, cause of broken range).

Needless to say that any init debuff will completly destroy NT damage. So your calculation are based on the "best case" scenario for the NT.

For the damage add on weapons itself, well Rahmo is our number cruncher, calcs have never been my strong side, but if you included damage add through symbiants/implants/nanos/armor/perks into that, I'm sure it's accurate.

That however will still leave critical modifiers (which again are highly common on alien weapons) and special/perk damage out of the calc. Needless to say most DD professions get their main damage through these.

Can't be improved with gear or perks? Hood of wicked inspiration is not raising nuke damage? Or enhanced nano damage line? It is true that ways of raising are more difficult which is to be expected since we're talking about percentage here and talking about only profession that can really use those kind of damage enhancers.

Damage won't scale on MC, thats true, but resist and with it chance to land will.

I was refering to the initial value on nuke damage that is a set number and not something skill/scaling dependant like weapon damage is. Sorry for being confusing here, I now realize it can be read the other way around.

How much would someone care for additional 170 damage that you could get from bracers if you're doing 6.5k with one attack - thats 2.5% increase, almost like putting first point in enhance nano damage line.

Actually if you have a look at the increase in min damage (what a NT will constantly hit for on the road to 220) between the cyberdeck nukes 201-220, you might be surprised how 170 points stand in that relation.

True, but thats again because alpha professions shine there. If I can get 15k of average damage in first few seconds for every mob and he is down in 10 seconds of course NT can't compare to that.

And you think that's ok, while in the same turn you call AoE usage during alien ground attacks overpowered?

Fail to see the logic behind that.

[JCarmack]

As it is with all weapons hitting for min damage.

I've seen better devil's advocate.

Long time ago far away in a distant past, before SL.

Take Resonance Blast, best nuke ever, almost 3-6k (at lvl)195. Add a weapon in hands of the NT and cap everyone at 200. Even at that time we weren't best DD, Over damaged by profs with 1-X weapons.

READ IT ! ->1<- - X (X)

Just AR, crits and alpha were enough to catch up and OD us with a weapon and our "3-6k special" every 3.5s (don't forget nano init at that time).

Now that everyone have a weapon with very decent min damage (instead of 1 or whatever crappy value), how the hell can you imagine that a 4-8k nuke (with poor hardly gained +% replacing a weapon and its alpha), made to be balanced with 1-X(X) weapons, can stand a chance against a new age high min damage weapons that all other profs had ?

Are you ok ? Want me to call a real doctor ?

Don't try to nerf us

pfff

[Guer]

Better damage buffing items ?
err cloak 1% ,hood 1% cyborzdeck 6% (if u use chip).
If u refer to perk lines 21% and perk specials .. but u have to keep in mind weapons 1/1 there perk lines, specials etc

[Satenia]

Struggle on some occassions and overpowered in others. Same as, for example, soldiers - they can't do much with such low min damage on RK uniques who not only have high ACs but also massive evades. Or soldiers on alien general with special attack shield.

I have yet to see a well equiped high level soldier (soldier as an example, insert any other top DD prof in here) miss out on damage against any kind of unique mob. No matter if their regular shots won't hit that often, they have specials and perks to compensate with.

It is true that the overall damage output will drop some, but it still takes me a lot of effort and perk timing to even compete with todays DD professions against a unique mob, where I am supposed to be in clear advantage.

A few nanobots recharging, a few fumbles, maybe even a NCU crash and you won't see me on the DD list anymore.

Like I said, this is the environment where NTs perform best, it's not uncommon to get ODed by the factor of 2 or 3 in a heckler team or any other "regular" mob scenario.

[Linell]

Linell I breake this down very simple as u refuse too se the truth...

Regular shot for a weapon : 800

Rbp: 64ish dmg add 64/800=0.08 = 8%

So how in the **** can u say NT´s got far better dmg add items?

First of all it was about better damage _buffs_, throught perks, items, anything.

Right thing to do would be:

60 / 4826 = 0.012 = 1.2% increase from RPB

while first point in enhance nano damage is 2% increase.

Even wearing that new social robe that adds 1% to nano damage output cobined with hood would beat RBP.

[Linell]

Actually if you have a look at the increase in min damage (what a NT will constantly hit for on the road to 220) between the cyberdeck nukes 201-220, you might be surprised how 170 points stand in that relation.

True, it is arguable if puting 2x damage bracers would help or not significantly. Even if you could use them their usability is many times lower then for professions that use special attacks.

And you think that's ok, while in the same turn you call AoE usage during alien ground attacks overpowered?

Not overpowered but strong enough.

[Linell]

I have yet to see a well equiped high level soldier (soldier as an example, insert any other top DD prof in here) miss out on damage against any kind of unique mob. No matter if their regular shots won't hit that often, they have specials and perks to compensate with.

What about Peter and Ris Lee? They can't land normal attack, they can't land full autos with much bullets. Soldiers are very poor performers on them.

Like I said, this is the environment where NTs perform best, it's not uncommon to get ODed by the factor of 2 or 3 in a heckler team or any other "regular" mob scenario.

Would love to see NT ODed for 200% by other profession of same level in SK team. Sure, it is possible if one is slacking and other one is firing all he can get but we can't take that as a measure. Shade may OD NT by 100% but also can most of other professions, even soldiers sometimes.

[Satenia]

What about Peter and Ris Lee? They can't land normal attack, they can't land full autos with much bullets. Soldiers are very poor performers on them.

I think if we ended up at the point where we have to name two specific dynas to provide an example of poor soldier (again, example profession, same applies for most common top DDs) damage performance, we can stop arguing about who is truly in need for an increase in damage output.

Would love to see NT ODed for 200% by other profession of same level in SK team. Sure, it is possible if one is slacking and other one is firing all he can get but we can't take that as a measure. Shade may OD NT by 100% but also can most of other professions, even soldiers sometimes.

During my recent SK spree from 215 to 220 I have been ODed by a rather huge factor by any kind of DD/pet profession my level and above. As much as I tried to work against the common believes that NTs are bad damage dealers in a heckler team, I had to give up on teaching them better ... because I was simply not capable to do so.

Note that 215+ is the level when cyberdeck nukes start to kick in and you can start exploiting AC holes on certain mobs (hecklers and mortiigs). Even doing that, I had no chance to beat DD professions my level and above that did work for their damage (just as I did).

Sure, in the end it wasn't hard to beat the 205 lowbies ... but hey, I'd prolly have canceled my account if this would not have been the case.

Note that my efforts have been trying to keep up on damage, keep up on damage with professions that not only beat me on damage, but also have far superior defenses, heals or crowd control. Needless to say they also provide a gain for the team, while I bascially hold none.

While doing a quick search on the forums, I found two damage dumps I posted a while ago. Wish I could give you more of them, but in the end I truly didn't feel motivated to have DD running anymore.

1. 218 Soldier : 7360056 hp (peren blaster)
2. 219 Crat : 5936722 hp (2 pets, 1 bot)
3. 218 MA : 5081024 hp (fists, was pulling most of the time)
4. 219 Enfo: 4965667 hp (dual alien hammers)
5. 216 NT (me) : 4100334 hp (215 nuke on hecklers - 216 nuke on guardians)
6. 214 Doctor : 1943630 hp (220 MBC, didn't use DoTs)

1. 210 Adventurer with dual alien axes: 2646198 hp ( 42675 hp/min )
2. 213 Soldier with peren gun: 2415309 hp ( 39119 hp/min )
3. 213 Whiner with Zhok the Nerfed: 2319870 hp ( 42944 hp/min )
4. 215 Enforcer with dual alien hammers: 1993026 hp ( 32497 hp/min )
5. 208 Eternalist with maw and dots (me) : 1967766 hp ( 31556 hp/min )
6. Zhok the Nerfed (yeah right) : 1604087 hp ( 31445 hp/min )
7. 212 NT with cyb0rdeck: 1434324 hp ( 23149 hp/min )

None of these included a shade, so we miss out on the factor 3 on these dumps. We are close to factor 2 though.

As a summary I can say that even with speed caped nukes, exploiting AC holes, step-nuking, AI chips on deck, SL/AI damage perks AND supernova perk specials I have been outperformed by agents, melee adventurers, crats, enforcers, engineers, keepers, MAs, MPs, shades and soldiers.

That's just looking at damage, not touching defensive capabilities and team benefits.

[Linell]

I think if we ended up at the point where we have to name two specific dynas

Those are not only situations. Also alien generals with high evades are common as well as generals with special attack shield. I think we could find more situations.

to provide an example of poor soldier (again, example profession, same applies for most common top DDs) damage performance, we can stop arguing about who is truly in need for an increase in damage output.

I'm not arguing about need to increase NT damage output (on single nukes) thats clear, but rather about how to increase it since in my opinion simple raise in nano formula damage could easily overpower NTs on RK.

[Mastablasta]

We are at all times deeply hindered by our absurd defences...

[Satenia]

I'm not arguing about need to increase NT damage output (on single nukes) thats clear, but rather about how to increase it since in my opinion simple raise in nano formula damage could easily overpower NTs on RK.

As stated ealier in this thread, boosting min damage on nukes will resolve damage output in shadowlands to a degree, while nukes still scale up to the same max damage on RK as they do today.

Weapons are following this trend for a good while now ... no need to leave nukes out of it.

[Steveo]

As stated ealier in this thread, boosting min damage on nukes will resolve damage output in shadowlands to a degree, while nukes still scale up to the same max damage on RK as they do today.

Weapons are following this trend for a good while now ... no need to leave nukes out of it.

One possibility for how they can do this is add an additional benefit to the END line which we all invest in, it could be something like add 20 % nano damage efficiency, similar to the doctor heal efficiency lines. To help us hit at above minimum damage. This would scale with the line and help people hit above min on their nukes. Wouldn't overpower rk or sl.

The bottom line for nt's is that we need some help. Its clear to see when nanolines are properly extended we would have a very powerful defensive toolset matching what we had before, which had its own problems. I think extending our toolset should be the minimum we should recieve and then we can talk about love for our profession extending from there. Imo extending our toolset is more of a bug fix than a love patch.

[Crysantimum]

Imo extending our toolset is more of a bug fix than a love patch.

I agree to that.

I couldn't resist posting even when I in my heart feel that it won't help whatever reasoning I can produce.

[JCarmack]

Imo

Quite reductive ^^