Definitive Research on Best PvM Doc Weapons Thread

[amodrek]

But if someone has a type 12 SMG handy on a fixer or something, I'd consider resetting to SMG to test it.

/bio

er... waist of RP's? lol

[Deathstalker]

My Doc went from Pistols (2*CDR) to JAME and will later switch to the MBC.

That way i use RI, Fling, Burst all the time, can keep the medium Pistol skill for buffing and only have to reset Assault Rifle for Heavy weapons later.

[Babyface303]

What about this? Premium Merren Flamethrower

Any useful? If not, ignore me. If useful, where do I get it?

[Biochemyst]

er... waist of RP's? lol

That's devotion for ya!

/bio

[Heptagram]

I havent used a single IPR yet. Just bought a ql179 type 12 upgrade. I intend to try out the SMG with burst/FA option. I am going to do some calculations on what ql gun I can get on, then try to find one.

Implanting the skills for this weapon is difficult. I will also loose the right arm symbiant and its 80 add all def.

Pvp isnt that important to me and I will be suprised if this option doesnt OD the maw atleast


Update: I have done some calculations, and I dont think I will be able to get on a type 12 smg above ql160, so I have to wait till I can get hold of a lower ql biomaterial.

[Biochemyst]

I havent used a single IPR yet. Just bought a ql179 type 12 upgrade. I intend to try out the SMG with burst/FA option. I am going to do some calculations on what ql gun I can get on, then try to find one.

Implanting the skills for this weapon is difficult. I will also loose the right arm symbiant and its 80 add all def.

Pvp isnt that important to me and I will be suprised if this option doesnt OD the maw atleast


Update: I have done some calculations, and I dont think I will be able to get on a type 12 smg above ql160, so I have to wait till I can get hold of a lower ql biomaterial.

I just feel that Right Arm should always be an implant -- it's hard to match the nanodelta with a symbiant as well.

Good luck with that -- I can't find a Type 5 to buy on RK2 to do some testing myself. If anyone wants to hook me up for the good of Doc research (does this pitch work? ) then let me know.

/bio

[Biochemyst]

What about this? Premium Merren Flamethrower

Any useful? If not, ignore me. If useful, where do I get it?

Strikes me as a poor choice.

2.5/1.5
Damage:
150-430 (400) -- FireAC**
AssaultRifle 1101*
Burst 826

When you consider that JAME is 175 min damage, far easier to equip, and is 2.0/2.0, and has Fling.... not sure why you'd go this route.

Assault Rifle is one of the lowest AR weapon skills for docs, btw.

/bio

[Vinfix]

Hi guys!

Sorry if answer to this is obvious to you, but for me also the piercing weapons looks interesting and also possible choice. If I understood it correctly from this nice chart, piercing could be one option if you want to go melee and do some nice damage.

(<- is dreaming to dance tango with mobs with his new piercing baby doc)

[Heptagram]

1. One viable option is to use zastaba rifle in pvp, and a melee weapon with few specials in pvm. If you have a fast melee weapon, you dont need to invest alot of ip in melee initiative. There should be ip for this after 210ish but there it leaves little room for tradeskills.

2. Regarding about Kyrozch SMG type 12 in this thread on the fixer forums is interesting. It concludes the full auto recharge is too slow and the FA requirement too high to be worth it for fixers over type 5 with fling and burst. But docs dont have burst buffs, and the skill caps of smg/FA balance out more nicely than for fixers. I would also be happy with fewer more powerfull specials requiring less buttonpushing.

3. Kyr'Ozch Carbine - Type 13 has fling, burst and full auto and also alot faster full auto recharge than the type 12 SMG. Since it use the assualt rifle skill, we will get lower AR. If you could get high enough AR on this weapon to hit most of the time this weapon could be good.

[Biochemyst]

Okay, as promised, here's the Level 175 Solitus Doc chart.

Some notes: Many of the weapons that a 210 Doc can use are simply not doable for a 175 Doc; e.g., Gelid Blades, Sword of Dusk, etc.

I also assumed that no 175 Doc would go with a critscope that would lower inits to around 200 (if not lower). So only Low Crits table is presented.

With that said, here's the data: Common Doctor weapons are highlighted.



Level 175 Doctor, Solitus
Low Crits Chart: 4% Crits, 600 Inits, 30K AC’s, AR as below, Burst/Sneak/Brawl/Etc.: 600, Fling/Fast Attack: 650
Skill -------------- AR --- EQUIP -- Weapon -------------- Damage --------- Norm --- Spec -- Total -- Dualwield

1HB ---------------- 848 -- 1117 --- 165 Hammer 112 ------ 169-247 (169) -- 32880 -- 5743 -- 38623 -- 49582
1HE (Axe) ---------- 849 -- 1031 --- 160 Axe 240 --------- 151-180 (151) -- 29400 -- 6749 -- 36149 -- 45948
1HE (Gelid) -- Not Doable
Piercing (Rapier) -- 807 -- 1031 --- 160 Rapier 992 ------ 154-188 (188) -- 29280 -- 7320 -- 36600 -- 46359
2HB ---------------- 756 -- .980 --- 150 Sledge 74 ------- 192-292 (192) -- 34620 -- 4821 -- 39441 -- n/a
2HE (Kyr) ---------- 756 -- .980 --- 150 Sword 112 ------- 192-252 (192) -- 34620 -- 5975 -- 40595 -- n/a
2HE (FBR) -- Not Doable
Melee Energy (SOD) -- Not Doable
Melee Energy (Kyr) - 694 -- .981 --- 145 E-Hammer 112 ---- 164-200 (164) -- 28020 -- 8364 -- 36384 -- 45723
Grenade ------------ 736 -- 1101 --- 165 Grenade --------- 139-318 (139) -- 23838 -- 2055 -- 25893 -- n/a
Heavy Weapons (MBC) -- Not Doable
Bow ---------------- 740 -- .931 --- 190 Double Nimbus --- 260-264 (67) --- 26964 -- ...0 -- 26964 -- n/a
Pistol (Kyr) ------- 639 -- 1191 --- 170 Pistol Type 4 --- 130-192 (130) -- 21060 -- 5070 -- 26130 -- 38414*
Pistol (Flux) ------ 639 -- 1191 --- 260 Flux ------------ 251-252 (339) -- 20610 -- 2061 -- 22671 -- 29540*
Pistol (CDR) ------- 639 -- 1191 --- Custom Desert Reet -- .65-143 (162) -- 10974 -- 4902 -- 15876 -- 19534
MG/SMG ------------- 694 -- .981 --- 150 Kyr SMG type 5 -- 124-204 (124) -- 20827 -- 8968 -- 29795 -- n/a
Shotgun (Kyr) ------ 744 -- 1031 --- 155 Kyr Shotgun ----- 108-272 (272) -- 20400 -- 2720 -- 23120 -- n/a
Shotgun (Maw) ------ 744 -- 1031 --- Maw of Abyss -------- 184-503 (2) ---- 22618 -- 2104 -- 24722 -- n/a
A. Rifle (JAME) ---- 644 -- .971 --- 140 JAME ------------ 175-450 (15) --- 27081 -- 8238 -- 35319 -- n/a
A. Rifle (Kyr) ----- 644 -- .971 --- 145 Kyr Carbine 13 -- 121-240 (121) -- 19411 -- 3870 -- 23281 -- n/a (Plus FullAuto)


Note:

* -- Due to the pistol buffs available, these were able to be equipped. But it is also very likely that they will be OE'ed for a 175 Doc. Please take note.

Conclusions:

One very surprising result is how poor Maw of the Abyss performs at 175. I had assumed that it would score very very well at these low levels, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

All the melee weapon options outdamage the good ole Maw of the Abyss, especially when dual-wielded. A 170is Type 4 Kyr pistol by itself can outdamage the Maw, which is surprising.

The JAME performs well, as was expected, but was not tops in the damage ladder -- which was surprising. Again, most of the melee weapon choices managed to perform better than the JAME, except in the Specials department which may be important to take into account.

However, even in the Specials arena, the Kyr SMG Type 5 comes in first, followed by the JAME Blaster, and then surprisingly, by the Energy Hammer Type 112. Certainly surprising, and worthy of further investigation for the TL5 Doctors looking for options.

Level 190 Doc coming next.

/bio

[Biochemyst]

2. Regarding about Kyrozch SMG type 12 in this thread on the fixer forums is interesting. It concludes the full auto recharge is too slow and the FA requirement too high to be worth it for fixers over type 5 with fling and burst. But docs dont have burst buffs, and the skill caps of smg/FA balance out more nicely than for fixers. I would also be happy with fewer more powerfull specials requiring less buttonpushing.

3. Kyr'Ozch Carbine - Type 13 has fling, burst and full auto and also alot faster full auto recharge than the type 12 SMG. Since it use the assualt rifle skill, we will get lower AR. If you could get high enough AR on this weapon to hit most of the time this weapon could be good.

The issue tho at the 210+ range isn't simply the AR but also the QL of the weapon that could be equipped. Assault Rifle is among our lowest capping weapon skills -- on par with Heavy Weapons and Ranged Energy. MG/SMG, on the other hand, is a tier-two weapon skill, although somewhat difficult to implant.

Unless a 210+ Doc can get a significant Fullauto, I'm not sure that the Type 13 Carbine would be a good endgame weapon. But I know someone is going to test Doc Fullauto abilities -- both # of bullets, FA damage, and recycle time -- and report back.

/bio

[Heptagram]

Very interesting chart for level 175 Bio, and thanks for your comments to my post.

I found the following in this thread on the soldier forums:

Determining Full Auto potential and damage:

Full Auto fires a number of bullets up to an amount equal to 6 +1 for every 100 Full Auto skill you have. No cap is known, and it seems to ignore weapon clip size.

Damage is equal to one normal shot per bullet with normal crit chance, less AC per shot as well. Hence weapons with high minimum damage are usually the best bets. Weapons with low minimum damage and damage range will tend to suck.

Each bullet has its own to hit roll much like a normal shot. Once one bullet misses, all successive bullets will automatically miss.

I am not sure wether the regular AR is used to determine wether the full auto bullets hits or if the FA skill contributes as well. The maw has MBS at 1100 and I still tend to miss on maybe 20-30% of the shots when sk-ing in inferno. That would not make very impressive full autos.

[Biochemyst]

Okay, so I got my hands on a 212 Type 5 SMG. Am ready and willing to test it.

Thing is, I'm a few dozen points short of equipping the dang thing. I know Alien armor would be helpful, but I happen not to own any.... If you happen to have some supple/sharpshooter/commando armor handy that I could borrow for a few minutes (I'll have to show up with a Trader in tow) to get the weapon on, I'd appreciate it.

I can then report whether it is close to the MBC as the numbers suggest, or whether it's way way off.

Thanks,

/bio

PS: Welcoming any other tips to raise SMG skill up. Currently short 270 points from the 1415 SMG Req of the QL 212 Type 5, before wrangle. I can get 32 points pretty easily; and I'm thinking a 145 (since 153 is hard to find) wrangle. So figure 172pts taken care of there -- still need 98 points more somehow.

[Milaim]

The JAME performs well, as was expected, but was not tops in the damage ladder -- which was surprising. Again, most of the melee weapon choices managed to perform better than the JAME, except in the Specials department which may be important to take into account.

At 205 I still do not have enough burst skill to land more than 1-2 bullets most of the time with my JAME, and the burst/fling is also rather slow. I actually found myself ODed by a guildie doc with gelids 30 levels or so below me when i was 200ish.

[Heptagram]

[QUOTE=Milaim]At 205 I still do not have enough burst skill to land more than 1-2 bullets most of the time with my JAMEQUOTE]

Hm interesting. I think the assault rifle skill also plays a role in determining the AR of the burst attack tho.

According to Nillans skill emulator a solitus doctor at 215 without any equipment will have the following caps in the ranged weapon skills:

Pistol, shotgun and fling shot: 1015

MG/SMG, aimed shot, burst: 880

All the rest: 746

Pistol/shotgun has a 136 point advantage over SMG, which has a 134 point advantage over the rest. Most the skills are equally hard to implant except rifle, which is abit easier to implant.

I am starting to think you cant get the AR of assault rifles high enough for it to be effective. A type 1 and type 4 pistol dualwielded will give you both burst, fling and high AR. I am guessing SMG might compete with the pistol option if the AR gets high enough to hit most of the time. Dual wielded alien machine pistol SMGs would then probably perform better than a single alien submachinegun.

[Eylen]

The attack rating for Regular/Burst/Fling/Full Auto/Fast Attack/Brawl is currently determined as folllows:

Regular Damage: AR = WS+AAO
Specials Damage: SAR = ((WS+AAO)+SS)/2

AR = Attack Rating
SAR = Specials Attack Rating
WS = Weapon Skill (total weapon skill including implans/symbiants/buffs etc.)
AAO = Add All Off (total Add All Off including implans/symbiants/buffs etc..)
SS = Special Skill (total special skill including implans/symbiants/buffs etc.)


Example:

Total Assault Rifle Skill: 1100
Total Burst Skill: 900
Total Fling Skill: 950
Total Add All Off Mod: 100

AR = 1100+100 = 1200
Burst SAR = ((1100+100)+900)/2 = 1050
Fling SAR = ((1100+100)+950)/2 = 1075


As you can see unless you MATCH the specials skill with your weapon skill + all off mod your attack rating to hit with these specials will be lower than regular attack. This is something to keep in mind when choosing a weapon.

Currenlty the specials that are affected by this formula (and that I know with great deal of certainty) are: Full Auto, Burst, Fling Shot, Fast Attack, Brawl.

Aimed Shot is NOT affected by this formula and it works same as it did before "skill lock/specials nerf" and I believe also Dimach survived untouched.

EDIT: On a side note: Gelids ARE definitevly doable to dual wield at 175 on a soli/trox/opi doctor at least. I have done it at 175 on my neutral doctor (no towers/advantages/pre AI, so sided people with mid/high QL tower fields and advantages will have an easier time). It's just a matter of getting some of the needed items most of which is not expensive or hard to get. Also it is a must to train Ambidextrous perk for multi melee if you want to dual them (at least it was in my case, I needed to train it to L4). And also remeber that Atrox can use Silken Legchopper Gloves for an extra 40 points to 1HE and 2HE. Some of the items I used that I can recall now were: Set of Bootleger's Armor (Elysium/Penumbra Dryad Bosses (QL60-90 for Elysium, QL150-200 for Penumbra, I farmed my in Penumbra), Cama's/Vanya's Pearls of the Right Brain(Penumbra), Enel Gil's Earring of Attention/Nar Shere's Earring of Tapping (Elysium - NODROP), Bloodshed Armband (Inner Sanctum - NODROP), Custom 1HE/FA/MM/Agility/Sense Implants (nice thing is that 1HE, Fast Attack and Multi Melee do not conflict with each other) and manuals of skill that drop in SL from sided mobs (Redeemed/Unredeemed) oh and the "Star Backpack" from containers terminal in any advanced/superior marketplace.

[Milaim]

My setup for the JAME could be a bit better, but I've been a bit lazy. Shiny burst collides with AR in right arm, and I do not have bright burst since i liked my right wrist symbiant better. Also I have MC instead of faded AR in the eye. Fling shot is not in my implants at all. Selfbuffed I now have 907 AR, 788 burst , 732 fling and only 25 add all off. Maybe it would have been better if my Kaehler sleeves had burst instead of full auto.

Now at 205 i'm going to switch from JAME to gelids as i can self equip them with 230ish implants. With about 1050 1he and 1050 FA i am confident the damage will be superior to my JAME, and I will even get back bright MC in the right hand so the 203 B dot is in reach for more damage.

Now I'm just pondering on what second sleeve to get as I thought I'd equip my +23 Sable Sleeves of Fantasies, maybe it is time to go back to mercs and get an Azure sleeve.

[Heptagram]

Eylen, thanks for your post about special attack AR. I have been thinking alot about weapons the last few days. I want to have a ranged weapon, and pvp is not very important for me. Here are some of my thoughts:

- Assault rifle (type 13 for example) would be nice if the AR could get high enough, which it probably cant, since its hard to implant and the skill cap is low.

- For high AR, alien shotgun is probably best, since it has a high skill cap and the shining cluster doesnt conflict with anything important. This weapon is crit reliant and has low special damage.

- For some time I thought dual type 1 and type 4 KyrOzch pistols would be wicked - high AR, burst and fling. _But_ the multi wield requirement is obnoxious, and all pistol clusters conflicts with MC or nanodelta.

This leads back to where Biochemyst stands - KyrOzch type 5 submachinegun. Shining SMG doesnt conflict with anything important, and burst can be implanted in bright/faded locations without serious losses. If I later get hold of an MBC, I need to use 1 skill reset point to switch. And - the single handed KyrOzch machine pistols has a multiwield requirement that is well within reach, which means I can "upgrade" to dualwielding 2x machine pistols if I get the ip later on.

I am 90% sure I will switch to SMG Im going to try to buy parts that will make a 180-190is weapon.

[Heptagram]

- MBC can be triple implanted, and you can also fit in a shining burst cluster that conflicts with most other ranged weapon skills. I really like the living ocular symbiant though, and you do lose something valuable by putting in a bright HW cluster.

- Pistol conflicts with nanodelta or MC in all three spots. Implanting SMG or shotgun shining clusters works, but the bright and faded ones conflict with MC.

This makes MBC easier to implant than SMG, pistol and shotgun, which partly makes up for the lower skill cap.

Melee weapon skills are generally easy to implant compared to the ranged weapon skills.


If you have pvm weapon solution that isnt very good for pvp, you could go for high AS, and rifle/bow skill just high enough to get the AS weapon out of OE. No need for the initiative skill for the AS weapon since it doesnt affect AS recharge. Bow would be easiest, since support symbiants buffs bow and it doesnt conflict with AS. Then you could swap out implants for eye, right arm, right wrist and right hand between doing pvp and pvm.

[dahmian]

Does AS work in PvM without using conceal? And if so, how?