It's about time to talk about the mission/ClickSaver problem...

[thresholdrpg]

Originally posted by Spook


Can Mr from borderland dictatorship that don´t give a damn about any other peoples rights shot the **** up and think before saying that others are communists?

Can you wipe the foam from your mouth long enough to formulate a complete sentence that actually makes sense?

WTF was that babble in the above quoted text?

And yeah we do know what it means to be able to be self-supporting. It is a bit of a basis from the farming-society that our culture have evolved from, but we are willing to pay taxes to give those that fall between the cracks in society a new chance.
Are you sure you didn´t mean self-centered in the post.

Fall between the cracks = too lazy to have a job

But that is another matter.

The point is, people should be able to obtain the items they want for their character through their own effort. They shouldn't be forced to camp the shopping channel for 6 days and pay 798723121 million credits for it due to arbitrary rarity. They also shouldn't be forced to do team missions to get it, since all too often team missions means = getting stuck with some serious immature ******* who makes your play time miserable.

And before you start telling me again how much you think I am a jerk and my personality sucks, I could be one of those people you end up with in a team mission..... and therefore, you make my point for me. =)

[Nuube]

Originally posted by Trendor
I disagree. I know Im gonna get flamed.. but I dont use click saver. I buy and sell tons of nanos. (I have a big list including that Master nano you want). Its what I do and its how I make money. If everyone has their own *lazy mans shop* where you get to dump your $hit in and collect money the next day for your inta-mtv-gratification it will put me and other merchants like me out of business. Also, if everyone has their own terminal, nobody can possibly visit them all. You will miss most of your customers anyway simply because there are too many shops to choose from.

I have played other games with a "real" auction channel and even player supplied shops. It works something like this:

Auction:
The auction channel consists of perhaps 6 "Slots" each labeled with a letter, A-F for example. Anyone can toggle this channel on, off or set various modes of info displayed. A player has an item in inventory they wish to auction, so they type: /auc rifle 500000
If noone's items are currently in queue to be displayed, that item would popup on the auction channel with a min bid of 500000 credits, it would display all the revelent info such as level, stats, name, and anything else (in AO's case, a link to the item and QL would be nice). If someone sees that item listed as being in "Slot A" on the auction channel, they can place a bid. If a bid is placed, those who have that level of detail set (to show all bids etc), or anyone whos bidded on the item gets informed of the newest bid. If someone else wants to bid they can, if not a timer counts down, 20-30 seconds or whatever, and the item goes to 2x. If someone wishes to bid at this point, they must overbid by even more then they would have had to in the first place. If noone bids then the item sells. If someone does bid, then it goes back to 1x. If that person quits out of the game, crashes or types /auc bid cancel then the bid goes back to the previous bidder. When putting an item up with a bid over 1 million there is a fee of 10% reimbursed if the item is sold, if not that money is taken out of the game as auction fees, this helps to reduce people spamming up the auction with crazy min bids for items they only want to show off or spam with. I might have left out a few things, but thats the basics of the auction channel. Its Very efficient, does not allow for auctioning of more then one item from one player at a time, provides multiple "slots" for multiple people to auction items while waiting for their item to make it thru the queue to an available auction slot, isn't a channel players can 'speak' on so it doesn't get filled with mistells or spammy players who should be on some other channel and has a few other benifits I am sure.

As for player run shops, I have seen those also. They work kinda like this:

Player Run Shops:
A player can go into a player run shop and place an item up for sale. Items stay up for sale for 1 week. Everyday they are up for sale they get reduced in price by some %. Any shop will list or display all the items currently in it. All shops are not physically connected nor sell the same items. Items are sold depending on which shop they were sold at. All items ARE globally searchable by body location/type of item/keyword. Results of a search shows the item stats/info as well as the location of the town the shop is in (In AO's case, zone and cordinates would work). If the item placed in the shop (usually multiple shops in every town to hold multiple items) sells the player gets that money transed to them or their bank directly and if they are online they get a message, or if offline a mailed message to notify them of the transaction. If the item does not sell after a week it gets returned to the players mail (or in AO's case, their bank/overflow? since we have no mail system for items/notes).


Its my opnion, after seeing these systems in use in other games, that it would highly enhance the gameplay for everyone as well as solve more then a couple issues that have been brought up about a few areas of life in AO. Surely with a small amount of tweaking, these ideas could be added to AO?

Nuube - Omni-Tek Assassins

[XtroXtreme]

Originally posted by Cindrax


Can you wipe the foam from your mouth long enough to formulate a complete sentence that actually makes sense?

WTF was that babble in the above quoted text?

It was about as much insult as you gave all scandinavians with your own earlier post, that is all.
But for foam, I don´t have any, I just made an equaly insulting (maybe not since US have supported quite a few dictatorships) to match it.

Originally posted by Cindrax

Fall between the cracks = too lazy to have a job

Read instead: fall between the cracks= Had accidents and need of rehabilitation or poor and need medical care.

Sorry to ruin you black and white view of reality but it is very gray, and everyone that is not well educated, rich and have a good job is responsible for that themself.

Originally posted by Cindrax

But that is another matter.

The point is, people should be able to obtain the items they want for their character through their own effort. They shouldn't be forced to camp the shopping channel for 6 days and pay 798723121 million credits for it due to arbitrary rarity. They also shouldn't be forced to do team missions to get it, since all too often team missions means = getting stuck with some serious immature ******* who makes your play time miserable.

And before you start telling me again how much you think I am a jerk and my personality sucks, I could be one of those people you end up with in a team mission..... and therefore, you make my point for me. =)

And that has what to do with you insulting every scandinavian because Funcome is full of devs that don´t know how to find the way out of a shoebox?

[tomtemor]

Why not let us select the item we want and then the terminal makes a unique mission for it that cannot be copied/traded (so that you have to do it yourself, and naturally the real rare nanos like MK ACs etc should be missions so big it WILL take some 4-5 hours to get the item, or something like that, and make all missions like these non blitzable, so that blitzers cant exploit them..

[Sean-Roach]

Before I flame-on, I want to point out that I'm going to be attacking both sides, presumably from the middle but probably more from the gutter.






















First of all, this is an MMORPG. I personally play this game because I actually enjoy being in "virtual" company. If you truly wanted to play by yourself, there are lots of games out there that play on a single system, with one real person, you.

Second of all, although the US Government has frequently supported tyrants in a bid to improve the lot of US citizens, I don't believe the populous would have approved of the methods or goals had they come to light. We're still kicking ourselves for supporting Saddam against Iran.

Third of all, if you TRULY believe that a person should be able to attain EVERYTHING they need or want with their own two hands, I invite you to scrap your computer, go out to the mines, and oil-fields, extract the minerals, process them into a computer, PROGRAM IT with an OS and a game that's ALL YOUR OWN WORK, and be happy. Someone once said that a networks value is proportional to the square of the number on it. That goes for society as well, even virtual societies.

Fourth of all, I don't care for sitting around reading the trade channel either, and feel it's broken. I'd prefer a machine-maintained auction service, or consignment shop to the existing bazzarr and hawking approach. Or, and I'm partial here because I've promoted it, giving one profession tools to make the trade system gentler to all, but at the cost that that profession would stand to make a huge profit off the affair.

Fifth of all, I pay taxes because I enjoy driving on maintained public roads, dealing with half educated people who can figure change and read, living in a country that can't be overrun by another power, without it being a pyrric victory, because our military stands in the way. I also pay taxes for those who either "fell between the cracks", or lodged themselves there purposely, (we have those too,) because it's better to pay for that little waste and get everything else than to go where none is handled at all. You buy a car recently? Does it have an AM radio? Do you actually USE the AM radio? Did you consider not getting the car because you didn't want to waste any money on an AM radio? How about passenger side airbags? Passenger side mirror?


Edit. Sixth of all, tradeskills would probably be better of no one profession could functionally produce all of any one thing. If adventurers had clear cut bonuses to harvesting raw materials, or better yet a "prospector" subline of either adventurers, traders, or engineers, (or all three, the engineer(prospector), being roughly equivalent to the adventurer(prospector), even though both started in different professions), then a second profession, (such as the Engineer OR the Trader), or modification on an existing profession(s) , had an advantage on processing that into the second step, and so on, this might be better. But for this to work, there'd have to be a RELIABLE chain of supply. Again, either consignment shops or practical computer-run auctions. (Or a dedicated organization built around that trade.)

Okay, I've just put on my x-tra thick bulls-hide coat. Start the barbs, I can take them.

[thresholdrpg]

Originally posted by Spook


It was about as much insult as you gave all scandinavians with your own earlier post, that is all.
But for foam, I don´t have any, I just made an equaly insulting (maybe not since US have supported quite a few dictatorships) to match it.


Read instead: fall between the cracks= Had accidents and need of rehabilitation or poor and need medical care.

Sorry to ruin you black and white view of reality but it is very gray, and everyone that is not well educated, rich and have a good job is responsible for that themself.

And that has what to do with you insulting every scandinavian because Funcome is full of devs that don´t know how to find the way out of a shoebox?

My friend, please work on your english or instead only post to forums where whatever language you speak is used. Your ability to communicate is suffering badly.

[thresholdrpg]

Sean Roach: AM radios? Yeah, I listen to it all the time. Side air bags.... yup, great feature. Please bear in mind the reason AM radio is there is because there is functionally no cost difference between an AM/FM radio and an FM radio only. Furthermore, there is CHOICE there. When my money is stolen so some lazy welfare queen can buy a new DVD player, that's wrong.

Trade skills: If we had an efficient market in AO, then your "build your own computer" analogy would make sense. We do NOT have an efficient market. The only way to trade is to troll the spam.. er I mean shopping channel for hours. That is a bunch of crap.

If there were terminals where players could put their items up for sale, then yeah I'd be totally cool with having to buy things from players (want to see a very high quality example of this? http://www.neopets.com That's a game with ~30 million customers).

[XtroXtreme]

Originally posted by Cindrax


My friend, please work on your english or instead only post to forums where whatever language you speak is used. Your ability to communicate is suffering badly.

Well what can I say but that last line of defence for the stupid when they know they are losing is insults. Don´t you think it is a lot easier to just say that it was Funcom you were upset about, and the rest just just sliped in your post by mistake, instead of behaving as a child (if you are a child I guess it explains it all, and you can ignore the post)?

[thresholdrpg]

Originally posted by Spook


Well what can I say but that last line of defence for the stupid when they know they are losing is insults. Don´t you think it is a lot easier to just say that it was Funcom you were upset about, and the rest just just sliped in your post by mistake, instead of behaving as a child (if you are a child I guess it explains it all, and you can ignore the post)?

It is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. Your ability to communicate is terrible. And please note that I did address the issues as well, I did not merely note how poorly you are able to write.

[XtroXtreme]

Originally posted by Cindrax


It is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. Your ability to communicate is terrible. And please note that I did address the issues as well, I did not merely note how poorly you are able to write.

As a matter of fact it was not that bad, and it is actualy very insulting that you concider it so bad that I don´t even should be on any forum that use english language.

But at least I think before I write somthing down, even if it is not perfect in gramatic or spelling.
Try to think through before flaming, because saying that forum should only be open to people with perfect gramatic and spelling is quite stupid in a global forum. We don´t all have english as native language, and even then there is a few different spellings etc depending on if it is US english, brittish english or Australian english.

[Thyrra]

even if only the US born and raised population was allowed to post here, there'd be plenty of incoherent and undescipherable posts. the millions of individuals born and raised in the US that are illiterate are testament that merely being native to a language does not mean you can use it correctly.

merely because you have the ability to rational thought does not mean you need to use it. some of the posters here prove that.

merely because your body may be legally considered an adult does not mean that your mind has acquired the maturity and reasoning skills normally expected of an adult. posters here prove that.

merely because you say you are 'an adult' does not mean you indeed are an adult. i have been in personal contact with enough teenagers that claim to be in their late 20s to be convinced of this.

[Sean-Roach]

R U caln us L NooB BabE's?

(And that is the last time I ever intend to "speak" in that jargon, thank you.)

:>

[thresholdrpg]

Originally posted by Spook


As a matter of fact it was not that bad, and it is actualy very insulting that you concider it so bad that I don´t even should be on any forum that use english language.

You "don't even should be"????????

Seriously, what in the HELL is that supposed to translate to? SHEESH!

I'd love to discuss the issue with you, but I cannot even decipher the garbage you are belching up onto the board.

[XtroXtreme]

Originally posted by Cindrax


You "don't even should be"????????

Seriously, what in the HELL is that supposed to translate to? SHEESH!

I'd love to discuss the issue with you, but I cannot even decipher the garbage you are belching up onto the board.

I never said my english was perfect, but if you are so brainless that you are not able to decifer that in the sentence it was placed you should probably stop playing AO since most things are written a lot worse in the gamechannels.

Bye bye Cindrax.

[Peisinoe]

Originally posted by Cindrax


You "don't even should be"????????

Seriously, what in the HELL is that supposed to translate to? SHEESH!

I'd love to discuss the issue with you, but I cannot even decipher the garbage you are belching up onto the board.

I've always thought that the better one knew a language, the easier it was to understand all aspects of it, including what you wrote Spook. This becomes even more true on the internet, where if someone claims they need perfect english in order to understand, then they're lying. Pretending to not understand, then being a linguistic snob is a favorite act amongst many people of any country. If it makes Cindrax feel better about himself, fine. Allow him his glory. At the least, it provides a laugh or two.

Getting back to the point of this thread, my biggest problem with the mission teminals is using a mouse. When I'm in NLC during peak hours, it isn't very fun trying to grab on to those little little bars and slide them.

Funcom seems to have their own ideas on how a mission terminal should work. So, allowing their belief that the utter randomness of item rewards fosters player economy and interaction (hahaha), then at the very least improve the terminal so it doesn't require so much mousework.

Here's my idea on an improved interface. Click on the mission terminal. Terminal window pops up with buttons. Each button corresponds to the ql of mission you can grab. Simplify the additional bars. (Really, who actually uses them other then to max or minimize them.) A big accept button when pressed will generate six missions for you. Rewards are shown, with xp/cash shown as well. If you are one who enjoys reading the same blahblahblah I've hacked into this terminal and am here illegaly. I wish you to hunt down blahblah, then you have the option of shift+left clicking to read all that. But the biggest change would be a bigger terminal window with big buttons. Now, when my screen isn't rendering so well because of the masses of people in NLC, it would be much easier to move my jerky cursor over a big button then it is now where I have to try to drag a dumb bar.

Long live clicksaver I guess. The alternative is too pathetic to imagine.

[_____________Borrace]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


I think it's a pretty safe bet that ClickSaver was at least part of the reason Tank Armor prices got slashed. Because using ClickSaver/AOMD, you would get handed suits of Tank Armor essentially.

And what I said was remove item rewards completely and make missions reward credits only. And implement an easy to use system for people to sell the items they find in missions to people that want those items.

And to answer your question, I don't barter anything IRL period. Cash and cash only.

Funcom will not change anything. This is a fact of life. Since it will not change, the only thing that really makes missions worth doing is the fact that you can determine what it is you are missioning for.

The money from missions isn't that great....if it was better, the items wouldn't matter that much.

However, as it stands...and will stand, the only thing that makes missions worth doing is the fact that you can build a suit of armor, or find a special weapon, or get tank armor, etc. through clicksaver. Otherwise, missions would just be like everything else in this game...

POINTLESS!

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Borrace



Funcom will not change anything. This is a fact of life. Since it will not change, the only thing that really makes missions worth doing is the fact that you can determine what it is you are missioning for.

The money from missions isn't that great....if it was better, the items wouldn't matter that much.

However, as it stands...and will stand, the only thing that makes missions worth doing is the fact that you can build a suit of armor, or find a special weapon, or get tank armor, etc. through clicksaver. Otherwise, missions would just be like everything else in this game...

POINTLESS!

Sorry...fresh out of kleenex here at the office. So crying that 'Nothing ever changes' junk in a thread where people were trying to discuss possible solutions to a problem is likely to get the same response I give people in the office: a coffee mug on a ballistic trajectory

[______________Rogoff]

First of all, this is an MMORPG. I personally play this game because I actually enjoy being in "virtual" company. If you truly wanted to play by yourself, there are lots of games out there that play on a single system, with one real person, you.

Ok, stop right here. Folks need to get this straight, and I hope FC is listening.

Soloing in a MMORPG is not equivalent to playing a single-player game. Anyone who believes it is doesn't really understand the nuances of social interaction.

I play MMORPG's because I like to be around people.

I like seeing people in Trade.

I like being in a crowd at the mission term.

I like bragging to a friend when I've done my first blitz.

I like cracking jokes to my guild.

I like meeting some friends at Reet's.

None of those things is possible in a single-player game. The fact that they are possible in AO is the single, solitary reason I'm not playing Morrowind right now.

However, I don't *always* need someone next to me saying "oh, good job. You're so cool. You're just great, did I tell you that?". There are certain challenges I undertake to validate my faith in my self and my skills.

Sometimes I like to take a mission slow enough that I can use my pets, and not be a psuedo-NT with a gun.

Sometimes I like to plan how to break a room without having someone else decide that triple red aggro is a thrill.

Sometimes I like to open a chest without wondering what was in it 30 seconds ago.

Sometimes I like to get a piece of armor without having to outbid some millionaire alt.

Sure, it may be fun helping my friends kill a monster, but sometimes I want to kill the f'ing thing MYSELF.

Grouping is a form of socialization, not THE form. Trading is a form. In and of themselves they are no "better" or worse than chatting over OOC.

There's no reason to design economies and classes under the presumption that, without enforced trading and grouping, the game would be filled with l0ser hermit gimps.

We should be a community, not a hive. Some of us are social, and self-sufficient, at the same time.

[Sean-Roach]

I think you misunderstood me. Or perhaps I was less than clear.

I have done exactly ONE team mission with a team, and that one started out being another team mission done with a pet and otherwise solo.

The "virtual" company I was referring to is the crowd around the gridpoint in Tir. There's always a crowd there, I've noticed recently. First time I went over there, (through the gridpoint when coming back from Newland), in months, (I was off of the game for several months, but played for the first week back without going to that part of town. Why bother? Everything I needed was elsewhere, I thought.) I thought there must be a FC hosted event about to happen. I actually sat down and hung around, waiting for the ARK to arrive with her bodyguards to tell us what latest atrocity OT pulled.

I just got a thrill of being around the group, even if it was only in companionable silence. (Practically speaking, I mostly ignored /trade at that point.)

My point is expecting people to do things with other people is part of what an MMORPG is about. Even if it is just, as you put it, cracking jokes with your guild, or rubbing shoulders with fellow players while pulling a mission. However, a more practical part of it is expecting that you, as a character, won't be able to do everything in the game by, of for, yourself, but you should be able to find someone who can help you do it to the mutual benefit of you both, or do it to you for a price.

Expecting people to work together to do a complex thing is not out there. If a single individual can't really hope to master all the skills needed to build all of one thing, great, provided there is a convenient way, and fair/lucritive to both/all, to pass on the work to someone else who decided to master the second part of a process instead of the first.

If I, as an engineer, decided to master turning carbonrich rocks into carbonrich ore, and pure carbon crystals into program crystals, without hope of keeping the skill needed, high enough. to turn carbonrich ore into pure carbon crystals, fine, if I can find someone who did the exact opposite. We could work together to produce an admittantly complex item for our mutual profit. For this, of course, I'd want a reliable and convenient system to find someone to process my output on to the next step. /tradechat just doesn't cut it.

Being self sufficient isn't producing the bread, at every step, from wheat seeds. It's being able to grow enough wheat that when all of it is milled into flour, and that flour is baked into bread, all three of you, farmer, miller, and baker, can expect to have enough to eat.

Being self sufficient is being able to support yourself by offering your skills to others, in exchange for the use of their skills so you both get something worthwhile from the exchange.

My dad is self-sufficient. He teaches and he farms. He doesn't build cars, but he buys one occassionally with some of the salary from teaching, and some of the proceeds from farming. He doesn't maintain an active generator, but instead pays a consortium of other individuals to supply us with steady power so he can focus on other things, namely teaching and farming.

My mom is self-sufficient. She is a pharmacist. This doesn't mean that she makes all the drugs herself. Mostly she dispenses them. Her expertise is actually keeping track of what drugs are likely to kill you in combination with what other drugs so you don't accidentally find yourself taking both, and counceling patients on their use. Someone else, a room of people actually, handle the actual manufacture of drugs. Another specialist manages their delivery to my mom's location.

The person who maintains the powelines in front of our house probably has a child in the school my dad administrates. His wife, very possibly, picks up the families prescriptions at the pharmacy where my mom works, while getting groceries together. Those groceries probably contain food that either we grew, or we grew some of the ingredients that went into their making. Both are self sufficient.

This goes on and on.

Or maybe I have the wrong definition of self-sufficient.

[______________Rogoff]

Sean,

I think did misunderstand you, and for that I apologise. The paragraph I quoted sounds like an argument that I (and probably you) have heard a million times.

After reading your followup, I find us in agreement on many more points than we differ on. I object to forced grouping, not to grouping. I agree that collaboration should be made easier using in-game tools.

However, a more practical part of it is expecting that you, as a character, won't be able to do everything in the game by, of for, yourself,

This one, I think, is tricky. NO, I should not be able to get Shades of Lub by myself, or beat Tara. I should not be able to solo loot the coolest gun, or the best armor, etc.

However, I should be able to find *a* gun, by myself. I should be able to fine *some kind* of ql-appropriate armor, solo. The nanos that make my profession operate are something I should be able to get in a solo mission.

To put it another way, my character should not be broken if I log on 3am Monday morning when no one's on.

As far as self-sufficiency, I understand your analogies, they are very good ones. In response, let me tell you a little story.

I live in Pittsburgh, I'm a city-boy born and bred. Last year we had a bad windstorm that knocked out power for THREE DAYS. No lights, no microwave, no electric stove, no computer, no TV, no DVD.

It was a real wakeup call, on how much I *depend* on things outside my control.

So, I can't speak for your dad or mom, but I can say that *I* am not self sufficient. If world war III happened right now, the skills that pay me so nicely would be less than useless.

Imagine me walking up to your dad's farm saying "Sir, you got any Oracle Databases I can tune?".

I am a cog in the wheel, but that's cool, 'cause I'm a happy well-paid cog.

Back to the point....MMORGs aren't life. The whole reason we play these games is because it's *different* than life. Nobody logs onto EQ to be a loser riding out a pension. Nobody fires up their MA to get pulled over and harassed by Omni-Pol. Nobody wants their Enforcer to be grounded for 2 weeks for coming home drunk.

Social dependence exists in real life...that's no reason to include it virtually, as well. Part of the reason I play soloers in all these games (EQ, DAOC, AO) is that these characters have MORE independence than I, quite frankly, have myself.

Enabling communication and collaboration is 100% a good thing, and I support it. Requiring those things is, in my view, unnecessary and unjustified.