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Thread: It's about time to talk about the mission/ClickSaver problem...

  1. #1

    Lightbulb It's about time to talk about the mission/ClickSaver problem...

    I'd really like to hear something from FC about that issue.
    Not about whether CS is an exploit or not, or whether they tolerate it or not, but if they are conscious that clicksaver's success is an obvious sign that something is wrong with the mission reward system...

    We have to extremes currently:
    - don't use clicksaver, and you can almost not find some items, or it takes ages.
    - use clicksaver, and choose exactly the reward you want.

    Both of those are wrong. If we have to use a wrong system, of course we prefer the later one, at least most of us.

    It's the usual camping problem: an item has to be hard to obtain because it's powerful, so you just make it spawn rarely, or with a long period. Problem is, it's the easy way of doing it for the game designer, and it ends up with camping. The skill required to obtain the item is accepting to wait for ages to get the item.

    Well, when I play a game, usually what I want is just that, playing. And having fun. Waiting for hours in front of my monitor isn't my idea of fun.

    If an item has to be long, or hard, to obtain, at least it should be long/hard gameplay, not long wait.

    Something is starting to annoy me a lot lately, it's the fact that FC acts like they don't care about clicksaver. However, since CS significantly changes a part of the gameplay that they designed, how could they not care ? And it even have an influence on their game evolution, since they have put the interesting items as boss loot (although one could also argue that it's only to promote team missions, as they were a bit neglected by players until now).

    It makes me think that they are conscious that there's a problem, and regard CS as a temporary solution that let them take their time to come up with something.
    And I really think that the 2s delay between mission is there to reduce the strength of CS, for it to be less a cheat and more a temporary, and accepted distortion of their flawed gameplay.

    Because of that, (maybe I'm just paranoid), but I feel a little used, especially when I have to spend hours to do a new version of clicksaver each time a new patch is out, instead of playing...

    I think it's about time that they do something.
    You'd think that they would have revamped the mission system and forbidden/banned/permanently broken clicksaver already, because they would hate that people would depend on a 3rd party gameplay modification...
    But no, the situation hasn't evolved and it's rotting now...

    I'd like to hear at least that they plan to do something in the near future...


    Now the suggestions part.
    Well, if you look at the current system, from a role play perspective, it looks very retarded.

    So, this guy who wants you to go hundred miles away breaking the hell out in some terrorist hideout to assassinate their leader isn't able to come up with a suitable reward and expects the job to be done ?

    It would be logical that you would negociate with that guy, and settle with a reward that motivates you enough so that you do the job.
    Of course, the guy wouldn't want to give you a very good, or rare stuff for a simple job.

    Also, it would be logical that a long, or very long mission, has more chance in giving you a better reward.

    So, you could add a mission size setting. Larger mission = better reward (I'll explain what better means later, it's not just the QL)
    Harder mission = better reward.
    Of course, you'd need to make it so harder also means "harder to blitz", otherwise it would be way too easy to get interesting items. Make rooters root you more often if you're running, for instance.
    Maybe more far away mission = better reward too, but that might be a bad idea, because "far away" doesn't means much in a world whith extensive teleportation services, and personnal aircrafts.

    And now: how to rank the items ?
    Well, why not doing statistics ? Items that most people gets as mission reward, or that most people buys from shops, could go automatically up in value (and rareness).
    This way, interesting items for the players would always be the hardest to get...

  2. #2

    Angry

    I'd like to add a couple of points to what morb said

    1. Why can't we select the QL of the mission?
    I'm not talking about the level of mobs varying in a mission
    I'm talking about the annoying slider and having to keep wiggling it to try to get the QL you want

    2. Why can't we select any level. I'm level 80 and I want a Presence of the Master nano (ql 43, level 50 req'd)
    Well guess what, I can't get it. Why? Because I can't get a mission that low.
    I guess I could get Presence of the overlord (ql 113) but it's level 100 req'd!
    So the only way to get PotM is to buy it off of someone

    Which bring me to my last point
    3. I read in a post the devs don't want you to get an item YOU can use. They wanted you to trade items to people who can use it.
    How? By shouting. "WTB Presence of the master pay 500k" for hours on end. It's the what 32nd century?
    For the love of god this is not the middle-ages! If you expect a player to ....

    *sigh*

    Oh nevermind. FC is either unable or unwilling to build a viable trade system.

    da'Foot
    (p.s. I know the "presence of the ..." are boss loot nanos)

  3. #3

    I Agree.

    Noone is trying to buying anything on the shoppingchannels anymore except the odd "40m for nullity mkI" etc. They have to do something about the singlemissions before the economic system is totally borked (Unless to late).

    Dr. Varsel

  4. #4

  5. #5
    Blackfoot: if player shops existed, things could be much better.
    Stercoral.

    Circle G Inc. - Your safety is our business.
    http://nattguiden.no/circle-g/

  6. #6
    I think Morb should get hit AO subscription for free at least. Also, Morb should get advanced code that he needs for CS. That is the least FC should do.
    The best they can do is just to licence/ buy Morb's soft from him and make it part of AO.

  7. #7

    Thumbs up

    "Blackfoot: if player shops existed, things could be much better."


    Yes, great idea!

    Or.--

    Have player-vendor machines.

    Say 1 machine for each profs nanos with five diferent types, Basic, advanced, superior, loot only and boss loot only

    Then you can put up 10 item in along with your sell price.

    Take some of the unused buildings and put the pvm's in there.

    Then add, oh i don't know, a real interface. With, wow, a search feature.

    If you don't sell in XX days it is returned to your bank.
    Also, add a 'listing fee' that goes up with the type. Say 250k for boss loot. voila instant money sink!

    Have machine for armor, weapons etc. Even trade skill items like 200ql treatment kits


    da'Foot

  8. #8
    well,i like how you dont have to change setting each time to requst missions anymore
    Make Notum saturated metaplast armor comon like the rest of the uber boss loot you guys at FC screwed up. Resta - Ace OT Spy

    Disclaimer: Need anything talk in Vicinity...I ignore /tells.

  9. #9
    I disagree. I know Im gonna get flamed.. but I dont use click saver. I buy and sell tons of nanos. (I have a big list including that Master nano you want). Its what I do and its how I make money. If everyone has their own *lazy mans shop* where you get to dump your $hit in and collect money the next day for your inta-mtv-gratification it will put me and other merchants like me out of business. Also, if everyone has their own terminal, nobody can possibly visit them all. You will miss most of your customers anyway simply because there are too many shops to choose from.

    As far as CS goes, I dont even look at the rewards for individual missions. 90% of the time I get better loot out of the chests rather than from the mission reward itself. If I need something, I post on these boards or I auction for it in-game.

    Someone said that YOU arnt supposed to get the nanos you need. Thats 100% accurate. Im a nano merchant. I collect them all (as does my wife). In all our hundreds of missions I have never looted an MP (thats me) nano. Never. My wife has a few times. My class (mp) loots tons of Docs and ENF nanos. My wife (enforcer) loots lots of Fixer, common and ADV nanos. This has been going on for way too long to just be pot luck. There is some kind of pattern here. Find the profession that loots your nanos and send them a tell.

  10. #10
    ClickSaver has different features for different needs. I dont use anything but the original AOMD feature - mainly because I want to choose WHERE my mission is going to be. I always use the same settings and like someone else said, the reward is usually not as good as the loot if you complete missions (and I do complete them).

    That said, I love ClickSaver and think it much improves the drudgery of scrolling and reading the same text over and over. There is something fundamentally un-fun about the current mission terminal system. CS helps this. I gotta agree with MORB.
    "Life is too short to drink bad ale."

  11. #11

    Arrow Amen Trendor

    I agree with Trendor. The shopping channel is there for a reason and oddly enough it works rather well. If I am low on money, that is where I go to sell that nano I just found.

    If you are looking for a specific nano, let your guild members know and sure enough someone will come up with it sooner or later.

    If you are completely a solo character and you like to do everything yourself, then of course you're going to want to get the most you can out of CS. The fact that you turned to an outside source for this, tells you something. Maybe you aren't supposed to be a completely solo character in this game. Make friends, use the shopping channel, join a guild.. it's all there for a reason.

    Heck send Trendor a tell and make an offer for that nano!

    As a side note, I really like the idea of specifying a QL for a mission. The easy/hard slider is a wee bit hard to configure for a team sometimes and it takes quite a few goes at getting the right QL.
    --------------------
    Kikikins - Trader
    Aviiendha - Doctor
    AussieGirl - Bureaucrat
    Sikozuu - Adventurer
    Luminarah - Fixer
    Hermionie - Nano-Technician
    Tygerlilee - Agent

  12. #12
    The way mission boots are right now is disgusting, you cant get a mission for your specific profession no matter how much credits youwaste and you never get the reward you can use! in the location you want and the QL you can handle.

    Its ridiculous.

    Clicksaver helps this major problem .

    It's not the end all, be all, but it is the lesser of the two evils.

  13. #13
    /me agrees totally

    I think FC could/should give a status to clicksaver (like UO did for UOAssist for example) that could grant him of an "approved 3rd party program" kind of title..and send Morb the needed files after the patches

    OR

    Make the missions terminals totally different so that people dont HAVE to spend hours in a terrible lag to right click every single missions for 15 requests in a row to find a suitable location or reward

    I was looking for a claw for my MA yesterday, and searched for more then 45 mins on the term in Tir. I didnt install the CS fix for 14.4 yet but got so bored of searching that i logged and installed it. Guess what, 3 mins & few hundreds of credits later i was running for a miss in Tir county for a nice MA Claw...

  14. #14
    You are missing the whole point. The CS soft saves time. That is all.
    Yes, chances are you cant get NF for your prof. as a reward.
    Yes, chances are you will get better loot from the chest then mission reward.
    But the best feature of CS is the mission location.
    I dont like scrolling and reading where the mission is like I used to before.
    With CS i just chose a zone and let it roll.
    If missions are close to outpost/close togher I take it.

  15. #15
    I guess I’ll throw my idea for updating the mission interface in here.

    Add 2 drop downs:

    1. Zone (Omni HQ, Tir, etc)
    2. Item type (Armor, Nanos, Weapons, Utilities, etc)

    By default they are set to "ALL"

    If you select either one the cost of mission selection GOES UP. If you want to make it even easier you can add a "Profession" drop down and add a 3rd cost increaser.

    The trade off? Player gets a reduced mission reward set that might give them what they need faster but they have to pay 3-5-10 times the price to roll the missions.

    This sound better?

    PS- MORB has been doing a great job allowing many of us to use CS to 1) get missions in the zone we want them 2) get items we NEED for ourselfs or guildmates third (and this is KEY)... all that without having to spend HOURS or DAYS! standing infront of a mission terminal trying to find it. Thank you MORB!

  16. #16

    Lightbulb Radical ideas?

    Interesting idea Melignant... would need a bit of work and thinking through, but it has posibilities.

    MORB is right, CS is an answer to a problem, but is in and of itself also a problem. (Go look at the community forum, think it was the answers #2 thread, Cz pretty much states that the reason for so much new stuff being boss loot is CS...)

    To be honest, if FC were to simply remove item rewards (and make items from 'describe' missions fade on mission completion), then adjust normal loot to include previously 'reward' only items, make shops generate more items, implement better player trading etc, I'd be just as happy as now.

    Player trading would be essential if this was to work. I'd suggest a few options.

    A mechanism where you give an item to a special trade terminal and enter your asking price. Other players can then browse (guess filters would be needed) the inventory and buy anything that took their fancy for the requested price. This would be of course first-come first-served so just because you saw an item in the inventory doesn't actually mean its available (may have been sold since you queried). Once someone buys the item, the sellers bank account is credited with the money. Items unsold within a fixed time period revert to thier original owner (see the special 'bank' below).

    A similar facility, but where you specify your reserve price, and players bid. You also set a time limit, and highest bid over the reserve at the close gets the item and you get the cash. This would need a special 'bank' where items you've sucesfully bid for go - this would be a place you could remove items from only. Also, any items you've put up for sale that weren't sold would also go into this 'bank'.

    Traders should have some advantage in this area, but exactly what I'm not sure.

    And more boss-camps and maybe even outdoor-mob-only loot would all help. Imagine if the new adventurer stuff was only dropped from outdoor mobs?

  17. #17
    Dont you guys get it? hehe

    This is a social game. You arnt supposed to get everything your heart desires from a mission! You are supposed to contact others and make purchases/trades. You are using an outside program to get around the intention of the game design. Why not just post what you need on the boards, your guild forum or send some shopping tells?

    Last night I made a great nano deal with an Omni (Im clan). I had the boss mob drop nano he really needed and he had 6 nanos he was trying to unload. We met, I took his nanos and passed him the rare drop with some cash. It was a great deal for both and we had a good time haggling. Its all part of the game. Dont try to take it away.

    My extensive nano list
    http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=33892

  18. #18
    Originally posted by Trendor
    Dont you guys get it? hehe

    This is a social game. You arnt supposed to get everything your heart desires from a mission! You are supposed to contact others and make purchases/trades. You are using an outside program to get around the intention of the game design. Why not just post what you need on the boards, your guild forum or send some shopping tells?

    Last night I made a great nano deal with an Omni (Im clan). I had the boss mob drop nano he really needed and he had 6 nanos he was trying to unload. We met, I took his nanos and passed him the rare drop with some cash. It was a great deal for both and we had a good time haggling. Its all part of the game. Dont try to take it away.

    My extensive nano list
    http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=33892
    Funny. AC2 has figured out that due to the "challenges" of team dependent games MOST average players (casual as well) prefer to have solo only avenues for the many times when they don't want to team/socialize or those they are friends with are not logged in to the game.

    So AC2 has stated that they plan on having a "solo-expertise in a MMORPG world". Sounds like just what the doctor ordered for MMORPG design. No forced teaming due to game design.

    Don’t get me wrong. Teaming is fine and I do it all the time. However, I’M FORCED TO TEAM. I couldn’t possible level once a night without a good team and 4-5 team missions. That is a fact. Solo, it would take me at least a week. That sounds like a perfect example of forced teaming to me. It makes no sense to solo for exp unless you want it to take 7 times longer.

    I’m sorry this clashes with your on-line store idea but FC didn’t implement a good trade skill system or an in game player economy. I also would like to be able to get something I need in a few hours (none quests items) not a few weeks when I have already out grown it.

  19. #19
    Trendor:"We met, I took his nanos and passed him the rare drop with some cash. It was a great deal for both and we had a good time haggling. Its all part of the game. Dont try to take it away. "

    No one is trying to take away trading. If that's the kind of thing you like to do, great, go for it. Me, I prefer to spend my time hunting/running missions/killing stuff. I do NOT like to waste hours sitting in a zone spamming with crap I have to sell hoping that someone will have the crap I want to buy. I don't like shopping in real life and I don't like it all that much in games either. I want more viable alternatives than what currently exists. But no matter what changes they make, folks like you can always trade and haggle their little hearts out.

  20. #20
    Well, Morb, as much as I like ClickSaver (I very much appreciate the public code releases as I have made a version for VB .Net that does what ClickSaver does plus some other as a learning exercise in porting things to VB.Net), I have to say you don't *have* to code another version every change.

    The desire for what CS/AOMD does is very strong. What I did in mine was already limit myself to 2 seconds as that was about what I can speed read the first find type missions. So, I don't feel too bad about using a utility for something I can do myself or taking from other player server time flash searching missions. I really don't like the hook as it is changing game code so have been working on decompressing the stream so to be once again "legal".

    All that is only for learning though. In a recent leveling binge I've just been taking the first find mission not caring what item I get. More fun for me anyway. But, yes there are times I would like to hunt for a specific thing and, of course to get it I still have to do the mission.

    Player Shops would be tremendous. I would suggest relatively easy to set up. In-game auto bidding at an npc auction site or flat rates in vendor machines/vendors all minus a % would really encourage player trade and eat more credits from the economy. To top it ouff it might get rid of or at least focus the spam to certain areas specifically for it. ICC HQ is a good spot being the center hub now for all three sides so maybe there *shrug*.

    It's in our nature to go for the best we can, games promote this. It is damned hard not to use a tool that aides in this. FC could put this in-game with some db coding and some new world data in a patch. Players already have the ability to shop for a specific item allowed in missions - they had this pre-CS CS (and others) just help in finding the right mission time-wise. I don't think it would hurt the game if FC implemented an in-game CS (maybe charging more in-game cash for the service *shrug*)

    At the end of the day, coming home from work, I just want to let off some stress and have the fun and the feel-good I'm supposed to have from this game I pay for. I feel much better with a CS-like util as I don't have time to sit through missions hunts. I have a couple of hours a day for fun time. Without a CS type for the times I want specific rewards (not given to me as I still do the mission) on my time limit I doubt I could justify spending the money for something not providing my fun therapy ;p

    Cheers

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