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Thread: It's about time to talk about the mission/ClickSaver problem...

  1. #121
    Originally posted by Kuroshio


    Sorry...fresh out of kleenex here at the office. So crying that 'Nothing ever changes' junk in a thread where people were trying to discuss possible solutions to a problem is likely to get the same response I give people in the office: a coffee mug on a ballistic trajectory

    well then...wasting your time discussing "possible solutions" for a problem that will never be fixed sounds more like mental masturbation than anything else...

    it feels like you're doing something...but all you're really doing is jerking off and wasting time.

    enjoy your discussion...just realize that it is pretty useless.

    ---------EDIT------------

    by the way...please read more than the first sentence of a post before responding to it. it will make you sound like LESS of an idiot next time.
    Last edited by Borrace; Jul 26th, 2002 at 16:11:58.

  2. #122
    well then...wasting your time discussing "possible solutions" for a problem that will never be fixed sounds more like mental masturbation than anything else...
    The long and short of it is that Clicksaver is an important issue. It's already effected the distribution of new content. Why so much boss-only loot?

    Of course it must be discussed. No doubt the devs are trying to make up their minds where they fall on this issue. Threads like this, that present both sides of the issue, must be invaluable to them.

    I have no doubt that FC people have read at least part of this thread, if not all of it. Of course they can't respond - they are very careful to avoid taking a position on CS. But they know about it.

    I may not agree with all of Kuroshio's conclusions, but his arguments are well-formed, and he brings good points to the table.

    Including his point that you just ain't adding much to the discussion, except to let us know you play a game you think is pointless, and isn't going to change. Whoo, that was depressing, thanks for sharing.
    Rogoff AKA Mr. Brumble - 59 Omni Bureaucrat (RK2)
    Goodz 55 Fixer, (RK2)
    Goodzz 25 MP - Afrolicious, freaky and habit-forming

    Mercinax: "/me casts afro containment field on Goodzz"

  3. #123
    i agree with most of what you wrote but ...
    Originally posted by Metafistics
    The long and short of it is that Clicksaver is an important issue. It's already effected the distribution of new content. Why so much boss-only loot?
    this is an easy argument to make against having CS around. it doesn't hold up though. i am under the impression that there is already a system for deciding what loot is will show up as mission rewards. it is simple enough to make the items FC doesn't want people to get from the direct use of CS into items that don't show up as mission rewards.

    this system is still broken and needs serious help.

  4. #124
    Check this out, Thyrra...it's from the Community Forumes, a direct quote from Cz:

    Putting things in shops make them too available. Putting them in Fixer and Trader shops give a few professions the chance to make some big bucks, and still keep them very available. Adding the items in solo missions is the same as shops, due to certain third party programs I'm sure you know about. Adding them in static dungeons and static missions adds to the camping. So that leaves us with boss MOBs, I believe, as the better solution.
    (bold was added by me)

    I'm certainly not saying CS determines where they put stuff, but I think it has an effect.

    However, I'm not Anti-CS, I'm pro. The fact that FC wants to play hide-and-go-seek with the Fixer HOT's (for example) isn't a CS issue. The problem isn't that CS can find the nano's, the problem is that FC believes they should be hidden.

    Hopefully, as the game matures, the FC designers will get better at differentiating between optional uber loot (which SHOULD be boss only), and simple class-balancing items.
    Rogoff AKA Mr. Brumble - 59 Omni Bureaucrat (RK2)
    Goodz 55 Fixer, (RK2)
    Goodzz 25 MP - Afrolicious, freaky and habit-forming

    Mercinax: "/me casts afro containment field on Goodzz"

  5. #125
    Nah. I have a magician on EQ, and getting the necessary elements to make all the focus items isn't a picnic. It's rather rare to get the one focus item component from the drops, that you need.

    The focus items, namely the broom of trilon, stein of ulyssia, torch or alna, and shovel of ponz, are pretty much necessary items for a mage in my opinion, and EQ's been around longer.

  6. #126
    Unless FC makes it so you get 1 mission & 1 mission only, and you don't get to pick, I will continue to use ClickSaver. If I have my choice of missions to pick from, I am going to pick a mission that either gives me an item I need for my character, or a good selling item, and I will keep requesting missions until I get something good.

    I hate having to read thru the missions, click on the reward item picture to actually see what it is, etc... Especially when it's one of the missions with HUGE ammounts of text making me scroll down, etc...

    ClickSaver tells me where I have to go, what items I am looking for, and what the reward will be. It saves me time, which is good when you work full time & have other RL responsibilties.

    I don't care about the little "storys" behnd each mission since after a few levels, you've seen them all. Just a few different mission "stories" with variable names, locations & items.

  7. #127
    Originally posted by Metafistics


    The long and short of it is that Clicksaver is an important issue. It's already effected the distribution of new content. Why so much boss-only loot?

    Of course it must be discussed. No doubt the devs are trying to make up their minds where they fall on this issue. Threads like this, that present both sides of the issue, must be invaluable to them.

    I have no doubt that FC people have read at least part of this thread, if not all of it. Of course they can't respond - they are very careful to avoid taking a position on CS. But they know about it.

    I may not agree with all of Kuroshio's conclusions, but his arguments are well-formed, and he brings good points to the table.

    Including his point that you just ain't adding much to the discussion, except to let us know you play a game you think is pointless, and isn't going to change. Whoo, that was depressing, thanks for sharing.
    yes...keep thinking that your input makes any difference to what the developers plan on doing with this game. if that's what you need to play it, fine. for me, it's the people in the game that make this game for me. hopes that funcom will actually make this game into half of what it was marketed as have long passed me.

    enjoy your delusions about the funcom development team and their interest in these forums though.

  8. #128
    Excuse me Borrace,

    Are you actually posting to tell us to not waste our time? I personally find that su****ious. If it were me doing this, I'd be either, (a.) trying to get a certain person to hurry up and log on so I could interact with them, (b.) hoping what I said was true, but be playing it safe by trying to chase everyone else away from the soapbox just in case they do listen, (c.) figuring that it wasn't true, and trying to keep people who dissagree with me from having unchallenged access to the decision makers while I myself wasn't aware it was happening.

    If you're truly being generous and thoughtful, my apologies. I, for one, am going to continue to follow this thread to defend my side until there hasn't been a fresh post for several days or a dev locks it.

  9. #129
    Originally posted by Stercoral
    Blackfoot: if player shops existed, things could be much better.
    Stercoral, it's not impossible Verant/EQ just implemented this with the Bazaar zone.

    Typing /bazaaar on

    Allows you to search from dozens if not hundreds of players in the zone and see a description of the item and the going price. My god AO would rock if they had this added in!
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  10. #130
    A bit dangerous to do so so simply as it'd increase camping.

    I'd like a matchmaker utility that'd tell me when someone expressed interest in a piece of hardware I was carrying around, and had posted for sale, so that I could talk to that person, set a price, and arrange a meeting to exchange. It'd force the players to stay active in the game to buy and sell, where EQ's system does not.

    I popped in yesterday and managed to purchase a spell I'd been looking for. You wouldn't believe the number of truly AFK characters there were in one zone. True AFK too, not just reading a magazine or visiting the toilet while waiting on some condition to develop or mature.

    Think, started EQ, went outside. If trade were THIS easy you'd soon develop persons that specialized in selling one type of regular-drop loot, and I'm not sure I'd want that.

  11. #131
    enjoy your delusions about the funcom development team and their interest in these forums though
    Will do, mate.

    Nah. I have a magician on EQ, and getting the necessary elements to make all the focus items isn't a picnic. It's rather rare to get the one focus item component from the drops, that you need.

    The focus items, namely the broom of trilon, stein of ulyssia, torch or alna, and shovel of ponz, are pretty much necessary items for a mage in my opinion, and EQ's been around longer.
    I agree with you Sean, but I think the fact that necessary items are rare is a BAD thing, even in EQ. Not to mention, mages are one of the more difficult classes to play. My Druid doesn't *need* any drops, nor does my Bard (tho MM drums are nice ).
    Rogoff AKA Mr. Brumble - 59 Omni Bureaucrat (RK2)
    Goodz 55 Fixer, (RK2)
    Goodzz 25 MP - Afrolicious, freaky and habit-forming

    Mercinax: "/me casts afro containment field on Goodzz"

  12. #132
    Originally posted by Metafistics

    I agree with you Sean, but I think the fact that necessary items are rare is a BAD thing, even in EQ. Not to mention, mages are one of the more difficult classes to play. My Druid doesn't *need* any drops, nor does my Bard (tho MM drums are nice ).
    I think the developers and the players will never agree with each other on whether an item/nanoformula is necessary or optional. And the developers have a pretty strong arguement almost built in when it comes to that discussion: 'evidently people found it possible to exist without these items before we implemented them, so they're not necessary'.

    I'm not agreeing with that assessment if they make it. But it is a pretty powerful arguement and does carry some weight.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  13. #133
    I think the developers and the players will never agree with each other on whether an item/nanoformula is necessary or optional. And the developers have a pretty strong arguement almost built in when it comes to that discussion: 'evidently people found it possible to exist without these items before we implemented them, so they're not necessary'
    That's certainly a valid point. The new fixer HOTs, for example - very very nice, but fixers got by (with difficulty) without them.

    Conversely, a viable character requires certain minimums in armor and nanos. A level 70 Fixer with only the first HOT, a QL1 Kerans, and QL1 armor would be impossible to play. There is some level of gear that is "necessary" for a viable character.

    What that level is is certainly open to debate. But it exists.
    Rogoff AKA Mr. Brumble - 59 Omni Bureaucrat (RK2)
    Goodz 55 Fixer, (RK2)
    Goodzz 25 MP - Afrolicious, freaky and habit-forming

    Mercinax: "/me casts afro containment field on Goodzz"

  14. #134
    Originally posted by Sean Roach
    Excuse me Borrace,

    Are you actually posting to tell us to not waste our time? I personally find that su****ious. If it were me doing this, I'd be either, (a.) trying to get a certain person to hurry up and log on so I could interact with them, (b.) hoping what I said was true, but be playing it safe by trying to chase everyone else away from the soapbox just in case they do listen, (c.) figuring that it wasn't true, and trying to keep people who dissagree with me from having unchallenged access to the decision makers while I myself wasn't aware it was happening.

    If you're truly being generous and thoughtful, my apologies. I, for one, am going to continue to follow this thread to defend my side until there hasn't been a fresh post for several days or a dev locks it.
    a) no,
    b) no,
    c) no.

    after following these boards for a year, i've come to realize that the funcom "dev team" doesn't give 2 sh!ts about what the players want in the game. the mission system is what it is, and unless a major overhaul is done it will remain the same. my primary point is that this is a lovely discussion that will be absolutely fruitless...

    you can argue points back and forth about what missions should be or could be. it's all a big waste of time.

    i mean, come on now....there are simple bugs that have been in this game since release and even before. funcom has always chosen the easy route to "fix" the problem...just disable it.

    can't fix fall damage inside missions...disable it.
    can't fix the exp problem when a mob is standing in liquid...disable it.
    can't fix the dragon morph flying problems...disable it.

    and so on and so on....

    if funcom can't take the time to fix the tiny problems (like the mini-me yalm bug), do you honestly think they are going to overhaul the entire mission system?

    the mission system is completely f'd up...it is only a shadow of what it was supposed to be. the time and resources necessary to fix the problems with the mission system is overwhelming.

    but all of this is moot, because funcom won't respond to this...or you'll get the generic "oh...good idea, i'll pass your ideas along" and wait around for 6 months just to find out that the funcom rep was just blowing smoke up your ass.

    but go ahead and keep discussing if it makes you all feel like you are accomplishing something. i'll bet you 100 credits NOTHING changes in these missions until shadowlands* is released...if then. and you'll have to buy the new software to get the mission updates even then.

    have fun partaking in the lovely debate though.

    -----------EDIT-------------

    *corrected the word "shadowbane" with "shadowlands." Shadowbane, by the way, look like it is going to be everything that I want in a MMORPG.
    Last edited by Borrace; Jul 30th, 2002 at 13:55:14.

  15. #135
    Well, maybe my opinion is darkened by the fact I'm de facto quitting AO (I found the motivation to log in my char only twice during my previous two weeks of vacations, and neocron public beta is starting next week), but I think borrace is right.

    My opinion is that AO code was thought up to be flexible in the start, but as it's alas too often the case, ended up bloated, complicated, messy and hard to maintain, partly due to the everchanging game design, and partly because of time/money constraints.

    Given how much it has been bugged, the progress they made in debugging it and the amount of time it took them to achieve the current relative stability of the game, the programmers are probably not too eager to put large parts of the code base into question by redoing it or even just modifying it.
    I know too well how working on a large and messy program that, for the most part, neither you or anyone working currently in your company has been in the initial developement can be hard to maintain and full of unexpected side effects when you change almost anything.

  16. #136
    Ack, MORB leaving...suffice to say when you're no longer releasing CS, I'll be playing the next game (SWG, CoH, etc.).

    As far as FC reading the boards, I believe they do. Looking at the various threads, you can see several threads where Cosmik, CZ or Dai have posted a response.

    If they weren't reading, they wouldn't be responding.

    Of course, when it comes to a sensitive issue like a CS thread, they're not going to make a peep. They seem to have adopted a "We shall ignore the Software That Shall Not Be Named" attitude. But I am hard-pressed to believe they haven't looked at this very thread - if only to keep abreast of changes to their symbiote-nemesis.

    As far as responding to player input, they'll do it or suffer - whether they like it or not. Even the mighty EQ made drastic changes to the game's infrastructure in the wake of DAOC's competition.

    EQ is easier now than it ever was, and many of the changes are direct rips from DAOC (additional mob cons, chat groups, pet window, etc.).

    The competition is only going to get stiffer. SWG, Shadowbade, City of Heroes - there are a lot of cool, innovative titles coming out. The time is long past where game designers can support a "Vision" that conflicts with the desires of the playerbase.

    At some point the Accounting department steps in and says "just fix it".

    Anyway, this thread has been interesting debate, and has had some good ideas for FC to take advantage of. Time will tell if they're savvy enough businessmen to take advantage of free intellectual property like this.

    If they're not, buh-bye AO, hello SWG. Or CoH. Or Neocron. Or Xbox . With all these new games to play, AO better give people a reason to stay.

    If they don't, I'll regret leaving AO exactly this much: .

    GL in whatever game grabs your interest, Morb. Your software has made my game experience 1000% better, props to you.
    Rogoff AKA Mr. Brumble - 59 Omni Bureaucrat (RK2)
    Goodz 55 Fixer, (RK2)
    Goodzz 25 MP - Afrolicious, freaky and habit-forming

    Mercinax: "/me casts afro containment field on Goodzz"

  17. #137
    You know, before ClickSaver there was AOMD. And even when muzzleflash left, people have updated AOMD. After all, CS is nothing more than an updated version of AOMD.

    As long as the program is needed by people, there will be people taking on upgrading it. Or rewriting a new one.

    And btw I'm sure they'll finally give an answer about this issue. I don't have anything against AO btw, it's only that not everyone is able to still have fun after having playing a game for 8 months.

    I have no idea how neocron will compare to AO, but at least I'll have the fun of discover at the begin of the game. That was also the period in AO where I had the most fun.

  18. #138
    I mostly use CS only to view all 5 mission data on one screen.

    I hate having to open up each mission description to know where the mission is!

    As far as the economy, I never in the last year bought anything from players other then buffs and a gamma beamer.

    Main reasons are:
    1- You got a spend hours on chat channels I don t even keep open to see if someone is selling.
    2- Players charge insane amount of money for items that are readily available 2 weeks later(in most cases)

    I personnally don t remember selling something to a player in the past 8 months, my loots goes to shop or is given away. Yes, if I find a 6 slot belt or any other item, I will offer it to guild then give it to a random player if no takers.

    No I never give to beggars, but I have given millions to random players. Why??? Cause there is nothing short of Unique mob loot I can t get. And to me, since I don t buy items from players, creds are next to worthless unless I start a alt. As long as I keep my 10 million cashflow, I don t need anymore.

    Now I am not asking for more long camping hours to get items, just a better, more interesting way to get loot. I would rather kill my way through a 18 hour mission then wait 4 hours for a spawn to show up!

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