Level requirements on new nano programs

[_______________Intra]

Cosmik...
I am not wanting a more detailed explanaition... it is too late for that to be honest, this has been left until the last minute to be discussed.

the only way to keep any sense that the community can make a difference is to find another solution, or offer a compromise. if you go through with your exact plan now after such an out cry, then it destroys any faith that the community had in being able to make a difference.. or play the game that they want to play.

if you show now that you definately do not listen to the players, then what is the point is us players being here?
we want to enjoy the game, that is why we play. we are telling you that we wont enjoy the game with the current changes. making us and many others less likely to play.
the only way forward is to listen to the players.. or at least appear to listen to the players

[____________Customer]

<- just signed up for SWG beta
I had no interest in SWG until now.

up until researching SWG, I thought Star Wars was kindof lame,
but the game underneath the environment is everything players
on this board have ever asked for. I can ignore the theme if the
game is good enough.

Star Wars = totally skill based. over 700 skills!
no levels. no classes. total character customization.
(right down to the width of your lips)
player built cities. custom-built weapons and clothing design.
and you can advance your character without ever killing anything.
A real PvP system, with reprocussions (and anti-griefing system)..
territory capture.. you can build your own bases.. bounty hunting.
You can tame animals and keep them as pets, or ride them.
You can build droids, vehicals, anything..
everything in the game must be made by players.
That's right, a real economy!
You can even be a hairdresser if you want to.

best of all, no classes =
no whining from X class trying to get Y class nerfed
Dev's have already stated they don't care about that kind
of 'balancing' that just ends up pissing off blocks of players.
Jedis are going to be uber and kill anyone else with ease. period.
(tho it will be nearly impossible to become a jedi and a lot
of luck is involved as well as questing and secret factors)

Play what you want. How you want. Anything is possible and ok.
Become a politican. (players can elect you mayor)
Be a miner. Be a factory owner. Be a weapon designer.
Cratsman in this game actually get to leave their name on products they design.
(and, yes, I said design. experiment. different parts = different results)
Become a bounter hunter and track down those with debts.
Go hunt Rancor and sell their hide to craftsmen. Whatever.


So, yeah, I'm definately looking elsewhere and starting to get excited.
If AO continues to de-evolve into a stagnant level-based game,
I'm outta here. And I'm taking 80% of the playerbase with me.

[Darkbane]

Hmm, I could think of 2 (ok, maybe 3) reasons for level requirements on nanos.

1) To restrict nanos from being used on twinks. For this to be the case, the level requirement should be no higher than the level this nano could otherwise be cast at self buffed.

2) To allow a particular nano to have lower skill reqs (maybe it uses non-standard nano skills for the profession) but still limit who can cast it and when. his would allow nanos to be introduced with skills relevant to wat they do whilst not requiring a player to spend rediculous IP to cast.

3) Quest reward nanos.

Now Cosmik has brought us the designers answer... And it seems related to reason #1 (some ar #3 though). However, the level requirements in general seem a bit high. I've not done a detailed analysis of every one of the new nanos, but 've looked at a few, and the level requirements seem to be at least 5 levels too high. I don't know what calculations FC use, but they don't seem right.

[EDIT - as an example, the Fixer nano 'Major Supressor' is entirely self-castable at level 70 by a more combat oriented fixer, possibly even before. It however has a level requirement of 75.]

If FC really don't want players using nanos until a certain level (or thereabouts), then why not just set the skills accordingly? Every player should be able to choose to get certain nanos before others by favouring certain skills. If FC had just set higher skill requirements and QL, no-one would have ever noticed...

And as for boss mob drops... I've no problem with some items being boss-mob only, but profession-fixing nanos should be available in shops for at least the first few, and available in any mission thereafter. I've no problem with such 'fix' nanos being self-only, but they need to be more readily available to the player base.

Whilst I don't think you shuld stop 14.4 going live if it is otherwise ready, I think these issues need to be thought about more, and the level limits adjusted or even removed.

[_____________Chaingu]

Somebody, please tell me this is a joke!

I dumped my level 54 Wizard on EQ and came here to get away from having level restrictions. I thought I signed up for Anarcy Online, a skill based game, not EverQuest 25,000.

Must have hit the wrong web site.

This could be the only thing they have done that drives me to a new game.

[BoomDoom]

Originally posted by Sytrae
This in no way takes anything away from the game other than improving the lag for me , instead of letting the uber buffers etc and uber implanters always have the edge this will mean that following FC design people will get these nano's when the game can sustain it, when you were suposed to get that powerful, it will help rebalance the game.

This doesn't rebalance the game. There are two kinds of balance and this doesn't address the one that's a problem.

The first kind is class balance. That's the balance from one profession to another. If the professions are balanced properly then each profession would have comparable strengths and weaknesses that make them unique and fun to play. This does nothing to bring this type of balance into the game.

The second is player balance. This is the balance between different people's play styles. This is how two different people can both play the same class, at the same level, and not have comparable characters. Funcom introduced items, weapons, nanos, armor and implants into the game from the beginning to make this possible. Now, the people that don't go through any effort to use the things at their disposal do so at their own risk. Of course they don't have to try to max their character, but if they don't and they group with peope that did they'll find themselves lagging behind. The patch addresses this kind of balance. What it does is it punishes all the people that invest the most amount of time in their game. This doesn't affect any of the fly by night people that pop in every once in a while, play for an hour, install whatever implants they find on the ground, and then move on. This affects the people that make up their most loyal customer base.

The good of the few over the subscriptions of the many.

[BoomDoom]

Originally posted by Cosmik
A more detailed explanation of this change should be ready soon, which will go further into the how and why. I will post it on this board once it's in my hands.

Cosmik. Let me say I applaud your grace under fire. For us, this is a game that is beginning to annoy us enough we're willing to form a mass exodus from this game to another. To the players all that means is we learn a new game and all meet back here. For you, that means your company disintegrates and you start looking for work. I think it might be time to explain to your developers that you like having a Funcom to work at, and if they do too it might be time to salvage what's left of the customer base.

[BoomDoom]

Ok, so i grabbed this from the main page under the title "What is AO?"


Further customise your character and improve your skills and abilities through nano technology and surgical implants.

And then, you say on this post that one of the things that's making the nano level req needed is that people are maxing out their skills with implants. But you TOLD us to. Now you've changed your minds?

[________________Schu]

Somebody, please tell me this is a joke!

It would appear they are deadly serious. One hours notice for a major patch and no discussion.

And on my day off too!

/me is sad today

[____________Kyrrilea]

Level requirements on nanos will absolutely ruin this game.

Don't believe for one second that this will not be applied retroactively to all current nanos as soon as they can get around to it.

I hesitate to make this next statement, because it seems to be so absurd, but it's impossible not to feel this way based on the actions of Funcom: The developer's top priority seems to be nerfing anything and everything that allows any intelligent, experienced determined player to outperform the casual, inexperienced "average" player, by any significant degree.

The development team, rather than appreciating the effort of players to push the limits of the system, celebrating the fact that some gamers have taken the effort and interest to maximize the return on the investment of their time and money, resents players who outperform the "norm".

Fixing exploits is one thing. However, Funcom seems to have developed the mind set that any success in outperforming the average expectations for a particular profession at a particular level, with in the rules of the game, is exploitative, rather than innovative.

To me, the above statements have been shown by the actions of Funcom to be, for the most part, true. Then the question becomes Why? What is the motive?

I giggle when ever someone suggests it is money. Not because that isn't a likely candidate for motive, but because if it is the motive, their actions seem much more likely to have an effect opposite of what is intended.

Let's look at this for a minute. AO has become a niche product. It is not the most popular MMORPG by a long shot. EQ, DaoC, AC are much larger and seem more likely to be supporting a much larger percentage of "casual gamers" by the very nature of their mass popularity and appeal. I'm sure each game has it's power players, but a lot of the money these games make comes from keeping the "lowest common denominator" of players happy.

AO's chances at that market are long gone. The game was highly anticipated, but the disasterous roll out alienated many. With the "casual gamer" likely to be less patient with blatant bugs and problems, as well as less likely to appreciate the diamond in the rough that the core of this game represented, AO's chances at the "mass market" were dashed. The budget and staff cuts at Funcom mean that there is no "second chance" at this market, so it's time to refocus it efforts.

I stated that AO is a niche product, what is that niche? It's a game with an ideal learning curve to bring in new players and keep them long enough for the potential of the game to be realized over time. You can play this game as a noob, talk infrequently to other players and still have fun as you learn the ins and out of the game.

The key to AOs long term playability isn't the quest to take your first character and play it through to level 200. On the contrary, it's the fact that every player you start let's you learn more about the ins and outs of the game, the best strategies for achievment and a greater and greater understanding of how to take the fullest advantage of the upper limits of what the system offers.

With play, interaction and experience, players learn to tweak their characters. They may understand at level 50 that they missed a lot of opportunities with the current character, and then start again to do better with the next one. This isn't as unbearable a thought as it might be in other games, because with experience and knowledge, the tweaks to the next character will allow the player to reachieve their previous high water mark quicker and easier.

AO HAD the perfect balance, fun for newbies, a slow but rewarding learning curve and a system that rewarded players for taking what they have learned and applying it to a new character start. The playability and replayability lies in this balance.

However, Funcom obviously is too dense to understand what they have. They don't see the niche that makes the game great and allows them to survive. This is a power tweakers dream of a game which is still fun for newbies and allows any one with a little patience and effort to to become power tweakers as well if they give it time. There will always be some people who will resent experienced players for their tweakage, but they are the most likely players to get bored and quit a game after weeks or months, no matter how fun and pefect a game might be.

The key to long term playability in this game obviously isn't story line and high level content, because there isn't any. The key to long term playability of AO is the fact that effort, exploration and experience in playing the game brings about a slow, suprisingly unfrustrating and long journey along a learning curve that allows for increased levels of personal achievment. The fact that it is even thinkable to want to abandon a character you have enjoyed playing for months to try again at doing even better the next time is testament to the unique balance and appeal of this game.

Unfortunately, Funcom sees none of this. Their efforts at "balance" will ruin the uniqueness and appeal of this game. Balance to Funcom is not fixing classes that are broken in order to open up more variety of viable choices for players as their understanding of the game increases. Balance to Funcom is not finding a way to introduce Team content with out putting those who prefer solo play at a serious disadvantage. Balance to Funcom is not opening up more opportunities to more players and more professions.

Balance to Funcom is "leveling the playing field". What does this seem to mean? First, it seems to mean the elimination of much of the ability to tweak characters. Second, rather than providing missing opportunities to certain professions or play preferences to make them more competative with others, it seems to mean "nerfing" those with advantages down to the level of the most disadvantaged.

The fun part about playing AO isn't following a cookie cutter template of advancing a character from level 1 to 200, with the safe knowledge that along the way, your effort will be paid off with a character that isn't much more powerful, unique or capable than any other character the same level.

The fun part is that the game is as much about improving, with learning and experience, AS A PLAYER, rather than just the improvement in game of your character.

By destroying the game mechanics that allow an experienced player to better tweak each new character to be better at a given level than the last, Funcom is in the process of ruining the entire reason this game is even still alive.

Which bring us back to motive. Assuming it's money and not a nihilistic effort to kill the game so they can go on to work on something else, one has to wonder why Funcom seems determined to head down a path more supportive of the latter motive than the former.

AO fills a niche: It's power tweakers game which is still fun to play as a newbie. It has a long, though suprisingly unfrustrating and rewarding learning curve, where improving as a player is as rewarding as improving a character. It doesn't make the thought of starting a new character from scratch, to apply what has been learned as a player, unbearable.

The fact that it does all that with out any real story line or high level content is a testament to the unique appeal that this games systems and mechanics affords.

Ironically, because Funcom doesn't understand any of this, in an effort to make the game more financially viable, they seem to be headed down a path which will eventually result in fatal failure.

[____________cristine]

Cosmik this means WAR between funcom and its customers
if 80 % or more of the persons paying your paycheck dont want the change dont do it

if you work in an icecream parlor and nowbadie ever wants the green pistache flavord icecream are you gone order 40 galons of the stuff next month and stop ordering vanilla and choclath flavord icecream in the hope that thy will grow to like the green stuff ?

[Peisinoe]

I hesitate to make this next statement, because it seems to be so absurd, but it's impossible not to feel this way based on the actions of Funcom: The developer's top priority seems to be nerfing anything and everything that allows any intelligent, experienced determined player to outperform the casual, inexperienced "average" player, by any significant degree.

That is so right on target. That "average" player may whine alot, but it's generally the intelligent ones who last more then 3 weeks and continue to pay out the money.

Nice to know that level restrictions are absolutely going in. Lets the 80% of the playerbase who thinks this change is absolutely retarded cancel before their next billing cycle.

I'm still completely lost as to why you chose level requirements over skill requirements. The only answer I can come up with is sheer laziness on your part to figure out what type of stats people can get at any said level.

Maybe your press release about staff cutbacks not affecting AO was just a big lie. Maybe you don't care anymore about this game.

I suppose in your shoes, I'd feel much the same way. Knowing you'd lose what little playerbase you have left once SWG (or even Eden) comes out. Expected...yet dissapointing.

It is my sincere belief that your whole development team has never made it out of the backyards with any character.

It is also my sincere belief that this is some twisted, sick, Norwegian joke of some kind.

I happen to have more faith in the first then the second.

Hope you 'I can't solo 50% missions, she can, she must be super twinked, why can't I be super twinked, Funcom your game sucks cause I am too stupid to figure out how to play it, cry cry cry, oh lookee funcom listened to me' players enjoy your new game.

[BGumble]

This is such a bad idea it's untrue. Kick a game when it's already down.

There is no explanation that can put a decent spin on this. AO is already not skill based enough -

I can chose which of 6 nano skills I raise (but everyone in the profession raises the same ones).

I can implant whatever I like (but everyone in the profession implants just about the same thing).

I can chose any weapon I like (but most are rubbish and just about everyone choses the same ones).

I can chose any breed I like (but really only one is worth chosing).

Level restrictions just reinforce the mindless, skillless nature of this game.

At this rate I'm starting to wonder if there will be anyone left to buy Shadowlands.

[_____________Mr Bean]

For all those remiaing I think this is the perfect time for some mass give-aways ALA GOS

I got 50mil to toss away

Waiting for Comsik Explination

~Mr Bean

[BoomDoom]

Originally posted by BGumble
At this rate I'm starting to wonder if there will be anyone left to buy Shadowlands.

Yeah. I'm starting to think that as well. The last big shadowlands discussion I came down fullbore for the expansion and was basically singing its (and funcom's) priases and explaining why it should be good for the game and is worth buying.

Starting to change my mind. Its gonna be real tough in 6 months to justify staying here with all the new games out unless Funcom starts paying attention to its customers.

[Nargil]

I loved this game before OE rule, i liked it after, i ll be indifferent with 14.4, next patch = i will hate ?

Plz, don t do this thing funcom ! AO is my life cuz my life suck... plz don t let my second life sucking too (woot my english)

If u don t do this game better (cuz i do it lower actually) u ll have a lot of people leaving for star wars or warcraft III or any other (not DAOC cuz it suck)

[Nargil]

i got an idea, someone can make a server of AO running the old 14.0 version or something like that (before OE patch)

I think it s the best thing to do if it s possible (with this boycot maybe funcom will see the new ideas are BAD)

[Ensignm]

It's not impossible, but it's illegal, just look in the EULA

[Inocybe]

Originally posted by Kyrrilea

The key to AOs long term playability isn't the quest to take your first character and play it through to level 200. On the contrary, it's the fact that every player you start let's you learn more about the ins and outs of the game, the best strategies for achievment and a greater and greater understanding of how to take the fullest advantage of the upper limits of what the system offers.

With play, interaction and experience, players learn to tweak their characters. They may understand at level 50 that they missed a lot of opportunities with the current character, and then start again to do better with the next one. This isn't as unbearable a thought as it might be in other games, because with experience and knowledge, the tweaks to the next character will allow the player to reachieve their previous high water mark quicker and easier.

AO HAD the perfect balance, fun for newbies, a slow but rewarding learning curve and a system that rewarded players for taking what they have learned and applying it to a new character start. The playability and replayability lies in this balance.

However, Funcom obviously is too dense to understand what they have. They don't see the niche that makes the game great and allows them to survive. This is a power tweakers dream of a game which is still fun for newbies and allows any one with a little patience and effort to to become power tweakers as well if they give it time. There will always be some people who will resent experienced players for their tweakage, but they are the most likely players to get bored and quit a game after weeks or months, no matter how fun and pefect a game might be.

..................................

The fun part about playing AO isn't following a cookie cutter template of advancing a character from level 1 to 200, with the safe knowledge that along the way, your effort will be paid off with a character that isn't much more powerful, unique or capable than any other character the same level.

The fun part is that the game is as much about improving, with learning and experience, AS A PLAYER, rather than just the improvement in game of your character.

By destroying the game mechanics that allow an experienced player to better tweak each new character to be better at a given level than the last, Funcom is in the process of ruining the entire reason this game is even still alive.

........................

Agreed. I am of the same mind as this assessment. Very well put, Kyrrilea.

The very thing that makes AO stand out from the rest is what they are about to ruin.

The very thing that gives us leeway and satisfaction in progessing though the game is what they are about to ruin.

No retail or service company in their right minds would dare think of ruining customer confidence in their product. Yet we see here, Funcom doing exactly that.

Go ahead and kiddify the game into Anarchy-for-dummies Online, FC. You will learn the hard way that by driving out intelligent players - the ones who make a loyal playerbase as long they gain satisfaction and achievement in progessing through the game - you will forever stamp a dunce label upon yourselves.

[Ditka]

Cosmik,

Nothing you or anyone else can say or do will save my account.
FC's willingness to go thru with this in the face of so much outrage = July 31st my last day as a paying FC customer.

Thanks for nothing FunCom.

[Turin]

Originally posted by Cosmik
Level requirements on new nano programs are being introduced as an extension of the over-equipping changes that were made in 14.2. 14.2 gave us some really good fixes in regards to over-equipping, and these new nano programs will build on that, giving us greater control so we can continue to improve balance and even the playing field. To make things clear, the way nano programs are created have not been altered at all. When these new nano programs were created, a level was picked to determine when the nano program should be used. Skills are then chosen, based on that level, and not assuming you have maxed implants, maximum items and maximum external buffs. A percentage of this was chosen, and the skill requirements are the result. An arbitrary level was not picked - the level requirement is no higher than the intended level on new nano programs, which has always been included from the start. In fact, the level requirement is up to 25 levels lower than the intended use level.

This change to nano programs is also being made in preparation for the Shadowlands expansion pack, and new nano programs from 14.4 onwards will also have level requirements. Anarchy Online is a skill based MMOPRG and will remain a skill based MMORPG by focusing on the skills of each player and their profession. This addition will build upon the existing game mechanics and greatly aid in the balance and improvement of gameplay.

This is the biggest load of BUNK I have ever read on these boards.FC, You suck. Lvl reqs on nanos suck. I cant believe you did this. You guys do NOT know how to figure things out? You DIDNT take into accopunt implants??!?!1 WTF?!?! Arent implants like, oh.. i dunno. one of the BIGGEST perks in this game? Find me someone lvl 150 who doenst have ql200 imps in. I doubt thy exsist. But hey!!! lets make those imps USELESS!!!! Because we wont let them cast anything they should be able to anyways with them on.
ALSO! Lets screw over the nano mage's who picked that breed BECAUSE they would be able to cast nanos earlier than other professions? Fvck you.

( yes im mega pissed, you just totally gimmped my breeed even more than they are. )