Time is overdue to fix healing vs non-healing PvP.

[Letah]

Originally posted by Wuushu
Letah,
heh.. not many pvp without crit / ref..
so u cant say that etc etc.. becuase I dont pvp with outside buffs..

no flaming.. but thats the way it is in AO.. when i duel anyone.. i *know* they have ref running..


Wuushu - 177 soldier

I understand that, but I meant "sure, remvoe reflect", the "I dont care" was me but I truely believe they need to go; I fight bracered people too

[______________Wuushu]

Yep Letah,

its the ref %-age that needs to be overlooked..
i think the healing is ok... IF we could actually do some almost equal damage...

i read somewhere that soldiers (yes i know i take soldier as example now, but thats what i play.. ) we have a 133 init buff.. when Docs have a (i heard 1500 init debuff?) ... not much u can do after u get hit by that.. im not saying nerf.. but its pretty much goodbye/zone by then...

I haven't posted this many posts ever, as i did today
)

[outlawgimp]

only way to fix it is to make damage 100 % again (with one shot kill cap) or reducing heals to 50% which are both identical paths down the same road with the latter allowing battles to last longer (some people will like it some wont i guess).

its only fair for classes which are damage oriented who rely on there damage to survive it wont make a difference if funcom gave 100 new buffs to increase a soldiers A/R, as long as there damage is being healed at a rate of *2 theyre screwed

as coal said when damage was capped to 50%, no one cried about making everything 50% then?????

me thinks docs are self centered and only care about there own class

[____________Therpest]

o so the Docs bump to nerf Trader healsm i forget who said it but when the how *****ing about trader heals rocking somone said so you nerf us now you dont think they will nerf you, what goes around comes around

PVP was fair tell 40% ****, FC said it was a temp Fix but they dont know how to fix anything all they do it nerf well grats we wil all be gimps ina few patchs give it time FC will do it to you

[_______________Sjoko]

What I want people to agree on that damage v.s. healing should be fixed. I don't care how it is fixed as long as it is fair, for what I care doing more damage in pvp wouldn't mind me, but then I would prolly be too uber in pvp.

As it is today in AO, everyone have to fight, or you can do tradeskills but it'll take you 2 years to get to level 200 (or longer time). I wish that it would be possible for every class to pvp and be good at it if they want to. Of course that's hard and nobody except for Wenzell (sorry wenzell just couldn't help myself ) wants to rule and be the unbeatable person. If you face someone tougher your class should have the dynamics to turn what you did wrong into right and beat the one who beated you. Which means strategy is required and also skills.

As it is today, only a few classes have those choices and can play strategically. My class and a number of others don't have that possibillity. We can use 30% deflect and use MK or not. That's the choice. As I said so goes for many other classes.

Again I don't want a fix/nerf on docs or traders, I want to be boosted to be able to have some variation. I also want every other classes that is suffering in pvp today boosted, at least give them one or two nanos that can really be pain.

For instance MPs got nanoshutdown, why don't soldier get weapon shutdown ? (just a suggestion, wild suggestion perhaps but still would have been fun to see it in action)

Well anyways what I'm hoping for is that everyone will be able to enjoy pvp in AO and do it strategically. Conceal has done it to some extent making surprise attacks possible, but that alone isn't enough.

[Julka_Pomy]

Originally posted by Dasin
also i think funcom should make it clear what classes are meant to be the best at pvp it seems to many docs have a ego problem i will still never believe that they were designed to be able to own enforcers in a one on one battle. they let us know nts were designed to be competant now tell us where docs stand?

hehe me thinks many docs will not like funcoms vision of them in pvp. kinda sucked when i found nts were not meant to be good in pvp but hey we lived with it i think its time docs found there place too

Just like in any other game not only anarchy to find out what "the best" pvp class look at what this class got.

Whats important for pvp.

Damage.
Protection from damage/restoration
Debuffs that make oponent weaker.

If character you choose has all that you will make fine pvper.

Fighter class... never was good for pvp. Not in UO, DAoC, EQ, AC they great tankers but not pvpers.

Why doc are so good becasue we meet all requements for pvp. We have one of the most powerful debuffs, we do good damge, we have ability to restore damge.

That why trader are the best and will be best pvp calss. Even after 14.4 they have ability to restore damge, debufing that also make trader stronger, and damge....

Soldier, Enforser and others all missing debuf yes they strong but they cant make opeonent weaker.

NTs also good pvp calss if you know how to play NT well solitus doing just great in pvp.

MPs well not many around but they great they have debufing ability and healing.

Engis should be good but their weapon that should make them better is broken. 1k attack rating debuff hurts a lot. I was critng for 10 damge (my regular attack rating self buffed is 870) only problem debuffs doesnt stay when i get attacked. If funcom manages to fix it engis will be great pvp class i would say uber pvp class i think they should make secondary line of pulses that doesnt break just like docs have One line of debuffs that debuffs up to 2.5k but breaks on attack.


Healing is fine outside buffing that whate makes us unbeatable i can kill enforser and soldeir without breaking a sweat (i just actualy did it killed alone Enforser, Soldier, MP) with PNH, JOBE, RRF, MoP.

Well ofcource damge done by soldiers should be bigger. But i heard you getting new buffs...

[______________Pie314]

Originally posted by Julia Pomka

Well ofcource damge done by soldiers should be bigger. But i heard you getting new buffs...

There is no set date on when we will get them if at all. And now that level requirements on nanos is here to stay i doubt more then a handful of soldiers will be able to use them.

Even if they doubled my damage output (i wish...) I still wouldn't be able to kill anyone who can heal.


PvP right now is based on two thing. If you got both then your a god.

1.) High amounts of reflect.
2.) Any healing ability. Even an enforcer's mongo HoT


strategy doesn't count (unless you can debuff them so they can't heal), your damage output doens't matter that much, attack rating is tossed out the window. If you got some healing, a soldier shield and 2 bracers you are god.

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by Letah
The Doctor is the master of keeping people alive, but can also turn his knowledge of living tissue into a deadly weapon.

It's time to analyze what the 'but can also turn his knowledge into a deadly weapon' means. It basically means that you got dots. Really, there is no other way a doc can turn his knowledge of healing into a deadly weapon. That is how I interpret that sentence.

That sentence doesn't state that docs should rule pvp.

But for soldiers it does actually state that we should obliterate our enemies in combat. That basically means soldiers should rule. I'm not saying I want to rule, cause that would be boring, but I want some more equality. I don't want a doc to be a 100% sure to win, neither do I want a trader to feel the same. Or soldiers or MAs. (When it comes to being same level that is).

"The Soldier is lacking in most other fields though, but with the use of the proper nano programs he is so effective at dishing out damage, that anything else becomes insignificant."

[Zerosignal]

Originally posted by Julia Pomka

Why doc are so good becasue we meet all requements for pvp. We have one of the most powerful debuffs, we do good damge, we have ability to restore damge.

Why do all docs say their damage sucks?

Heals wern't like this until damage was nerfed.

[___________Obergeist]

What I orginally posted in the doc forum:According to the AG site:

200 ql Novaflow
1000 attack rating
Crit:3017
Damage range:4-1267

200 ql Novaflow
660 attack rating(which most docs I've seen post claim that can be attained without giving up important clusters)
Crit:2284
Damage range:3-959

Now, for PvP purposes let's halve all of that.

1k attack rating
Crit:1508 (capped by hp)
Damage range:2-633

660 attack rating
Crit:1142
Damage range:1-479

Compare them after being halved.
1508-1142=356
Damage range(low)2-1=1
(high)633-479=154

A soldier with almost 400 attack rating over a doc will have this much advantage using the same damn gun (in PvP):

356 more damage on a crit.
1-154 more points of damage per hit.

This is easily countered by RRF+bracers of reflection.

[Julka_Pomy]

Originally posted by Zerosignal



Why do all docs say their damage sucks?

Heals wern't like this until damage was nerfed.

Woot and i hear it from person who pvped in 100% damge times?????

Omg Zero... ofcource heals are not so important when you get instakilled by alpha strike. I was playing adventurer back there and trust me i never died unless i get instakilled. I could even kill NTs and i could do that becasue of my heals.

And i agree with Fryli that doctors were very good even in 100% damge the problem was instakills.

[Julka_Pomy]

Besides if you half heals it not gonan nerf doctor we will still be number one profession. It will just gimp ma/adventurer/trader

And who said we are uber?

Trader kills me
MP kills me
NT with effort can kill me
Higher lvl doc kills me.

I see alot of Nophytes, Novice soliders around and i hardly see any doctors walking with this title.
I am UBER! And i am jumping from rookie to freshman and back for over month already.

Nerf doctor.... what you gonna nerf? Complite Heal its already not so good spell, 1.2k Nano Cost 6 seconds recharge.

Our debuff hehe i think it nerfed already our best debuff Tremors 2.5k breaking at attack.

[Letah]

Yuppers, what Julia Pomka says, she's very right.

There is 1 RK1 Novice: Auno
I know of only a very few apprentice docs; Doiceman, me and erm I know at least 1 or 2 more. Dunno what Fryli is now.
Rookie's are not hard to get.

So now lets look at soldiers, trader and enf; quite some Neophyte and a <cencored>load of Novice's.

Even now, after 14.2 soldier/enf still get a lot titles; docs dont at all, we lost our gank ability with the loss of critbuffs (im not complaining)

Like Pomka says, 50% heals means we still heal for 5k... nothing changed... adv/mp/trader/ma... ouch! I'm *not* defending docs in these silly 50% threads, im defending THEM because I do not like it when people are nerfed so bad just because an other class is gimped after a few patches (soldier).

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by Letah
Yuppers, what Julia Pomka says, she's very right.

There is 1 RK1 Novice: Auno
I know of only a very few apprentice docs; Doiceman, me and erm I know at least 1 or 2 more. Dunno what Fryli is now.
Rookie's are not hard to get.

So now lets look at soldiers, trader and enf; quite some Neophyte and a <cencored>load of Novice's.

Even now, after 14.2 soldier/enf still get a lot titles; docs dont at all, we lost our gank ability with the loss of critbuffs (im not complaining)

Letah and Pomka... with all do respect. Seriously, think, start thinking for a second.

I'll give you one reason why there are so many more soldiers with novice / neo. -> Flashpoint <-

Why do most soldiers get the kill when there are a lot of people: Fling, burst and full auto.
Who get's credited most often when people are together in a situation like that -> soldier <-
Does that mean we're uber ? No.

Soldier do much damage the first 3 shots, after that ... well you do the math, I did some of it for you earlier on.

If you don't agree with me there, then let's end this part of the discussion. I know that you are SO afraid of being nerfed / fixed. And believe me nobody wants to nerf our now (after 14.4.2) #1 healer. A trader isn't an option anymore to heal, because he will surely kill himself and the recharge is riddiculous.

What the topic asks for is balancing out pvp that's what needs to be done. Come with constructive criticism and not 'but your class has xxx numbers of neos, novices etc..'

[Zerosignal]

Originally posted by Julia Pomka


Omg Zero... ofcource heals are not so important when you get instakilled by alpha strike. I was playing adventurer back there and trust me i never died unless i get instakilled. I could even kill NTs and i could do that becasue of my heals.

And i agree with Fryli that doctors were very good even in 100% damge the problem was instakills.

Ok then, whats the problem with 50% heals then???

PLEASE EXPLAIN.....

[Letah]

Originally posted by Zerosignal



Ok then, whats the problem with 50% heals then???

PLEASE EXPLAIN.....

The problem is ma/adv/trader/mp, not docs.


Sjoko, Im all for fixing it but 50% heals is not the way because it gimps 4 classes, thats why im so super anti.

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by Letah


The problem is ma/adv/trader/mp, not docs.


Sjoko, Im all for fixing it but 50% heals is not the way because it gimps 4 classes, thats why im so super anti.

It doesn't gimp 4classes, advs have so much going for them already that they won't hardly notice this. They also have a version of CH of their own.

MAs well they should have a more difficult time but considering their damage and 24% crit without even using a scope I'm not so sure they need it. They'll be like soldiers with enormous crits and without mk.

MPs have 3 pets, can shutdown the nano and nuke. Don't think their healingpets are their major concern.

Traders well they will have a tougher time, but maybe that'll balance that class out in pvp ?

Docs won't prolly notice any difference.

This is the easy way out. Still this I believe won't fix the problems with combat classes.

But if someone has any good suggestions on how this can be fixed without touching heals I'm all ears.

[____________Infamine]

Repeating myself :
- let the heals as they are if >>
- RRF self only (lower version for pvm like crit)
- Change the % on the damn bracers (i use them too)
- Make damage 100% on all but Specials so you cant just AS or FA someone to death

or

- Unerf my TMS and get rid off maxreflecdmg crap and make it reflec 75% of the dmg

which one you honestly prefer ? i would say 2 but that would unbalance the game aswell so 1

Also : "Doc can be also be dmg blabla" in the profession description seems to me that they do it with their DoTs (likethe Felons...) not with a flashpoint and bracers/RRF; dont pretend im the only one who got it this way

Finally : XXX Soldiers with Neo title X Doc with X title, as said before it only because of the amount of damage made to the target but theres no way i can kill a doc 1on1 or easier just remove the godamn titles so one will care about it

[________________Caol]

Originally posted by Infamine
Repeating myself :
- let the heals as they are if >>
- RRF self only (lower version for pvm like crit)
- Change the % on the damn bracers (i use them too)
- Make damage 100% on all but Specials so you cant just AS or FA someone to death

or

- Unerf my TMS and get rid off maxreflecdmg crap and make it reflec 75% of the dmg

which one you honestly prefer ? i would say 2 but that would unbalance the game aswell so 1

Also : "Doc can be also be dmg blabla" in the profession description seems to me that they do it with their DoTs (likethe Felons...) not with a flashpoint and bracers/RRF; dont pretend im the only one who got it this way

Finally : XXX Soldiers with Neo title X Doc with X title, as said before it only because of the amount of damage made to the target but theres no way i can kill a doc 1on1 or easier just remove the godamn titles so one will care about it

mm yep

[________Billy Talent]

The funny thing about this all is that Gaute acknowledged this problem in his PvP article back before dmg in PvP was capped. He said that capping dmg would make doctors very powerful, and if he decided to cap heals doctors would become weak.

I guess he decided to make Doctors powerful.

I say just let all classes heal dammit. Stop this crap about relying on another person to heal you. This class distinction is crap....MAs heal, Traders heal, and most other classes can regenerate health. (ex: Enforcers, Fixers)