Review of the Council of Truth.

[joshuacrime]

Well, taking a claim from a lease is a very old and dubious tactic of governmental bodies going back as far as anyone can remember. We can go so far back to Old Earth, if you like. The American Revolution during those times produced a wonderful document that serves as quite a model for what I believe most Clans would like to see instituted on Rubi-Ka. Perhaps that is only my wishful thinking taking place here, and there were many governments that were ruled by their own people through representatives on the planet later on. But those crazy rebels, they had something going there.

They were most assuredly a loose confederation of "states" that formed a federated entity whose sole purpose was to set up ways in which they would cooperate and ways that they would subject themselves to each others rules. I don't want to get into more details here, but one of the earlier problems that they found when they were writing up that old venerable document called The Constitution was that there were two schools of thought about how to interpret the powers given within.

The side that I tended to favor (although certain aspects of this side made me cringe) was the side defended by and large by the veritable demigod named Thomas Jefferson. He stated that the only powers that you were to use were the powers that were specifically granted in that document, and all others would require amendments to that document. Meaning, that you can't just do whatever the hell you want to do, it has to spell it out there in black and white that you are allowed to do something before you have the authority to do so.

Now on the other side (the one I think that would represent your interpretation) was most vociferously represented by one of the other demigods named Alexander Hamilton. His views of the powers that the federal entity had were implied as just and right for any nation state.

During Jefferson's administration as President, he was faced with a conundrum that the Constitution did not forsee, which was Napoleon. Jefferson had wished to purchase the one thing that would shut off the interior of his nation like a light switch, which was the mouth of the Mississippi River. That spot was held by the French and was located at the port of New Orleans. Jefferson wanted this land so that he could put troops there and guarentee free and safe passage of merchants and materials through the river (I think he wanted Florida also, but I digress). Napoleon, in the most amazingly daft counteroffer in the world, wanted to divest France of the entire Louisiana Purchase. This put Jefferson in a bit of a bind.

As a strict constructionist, he knew that the act of acquiring empire was not written as one of the powers he had. So he balked at the offer for quite sometime, making Napoleon very agitated and also making him have second thoughts about the whole deal (which by all rights he should have had in the first place). Jefferson's greatest political opponent, Mr. Hamilton, waved off the perplexing issue Jefferson was wrestling with. Mr. Hamilton said that "it's implied that you may acquire empire, that's what nations do" (to paraphrase his views). Jefferson was having none of that. He wanted an amendment for this one time deal, and eventually this purchase was made and this great man doubled the "Empire for Liberty" (Jefferson's words) with the stroke of a pen.

Now, how it relates. Trgeorge hits the nail squarely on the head and drives that nail right into the wood. The rights to mine were not the rights to govern. That is not how I read the lease agreement. I read the lease agreement as to be allowed to exploit the natural resources of the planet, and not to create your totalitarian nightmare ruled by a dictator/demagogue, free to do whatever he felt like doing, just as long as the bottom line was secure. It was this governmental faux pas that eventually created the conflict we currently find ourselves embroiled in.

Now, as my little history lesson will conclude, "forcing you to conform to our vision of how a government should work" would not only have been more wise, but would have spared more lives than any of us can possibly fathom, and it also would have allowed you to exploit this planet's natural resources and you would not have had to fire a single shot to do it, as we would all still be Omni-Tek employees and would have supported Mr. Ross. As the corporate CEO, and not as "Prime Minister' or whatever he fancies himself as (I personally think he thinks he is Caeser Augustus, but again I digress).

[Dabblez]

Well, taking a claim from a lease is a very old and dubious tactic of governmental bodies going back as far as anyone can remember. We can go so far back to Old Earth, if you like. The American Revolution during those times produced a wonderful document that serves as quite a model for what I believe most Clans would like to see instituted on Rubi-Ka.

Would that be slavery or the dispossesion of the Native American?

Savoy

[Riawn]

They were most assuredly a loose confederation of "states" that formed a federated entity whose sole purpose was to set up ways in which they would cooperate and ways that they would subject themselves to each others rules.

I don't see how this applies. By your own admission this is not what the clans want.

You are completely correct. We don't want a central governing group yet. And the last Council of Truth was barely out of its infancy before Omni-Tek stormtroopers came and killed a few of them and chased the rest of them away. The new one isn't ready to be a governing body, and maybe we'll never have one in the traditional sense. Tribal governments have flourished in the past, and we are all loosely confederated by bonds of friendship and mutual hatred of Omni-Tek. What more can a growing boy ask for?

As you (and others) have pointed out in the past, this "freedom" the clans cling to requires that they are not subject to one other's rules. By your own admission clans are not governed in any fashion, representative or otherwise.

If you want to draw comparisons with that particular empire, there were at one time many states within that empire that believed they had the right to govern themselves as they saw fit without bending to the will of some unifying authority. These states declared their independence from that empire. In what seems to be an amazing parallel to the current situation, the portion of the states that opposed this were the the ones with industrial (rather than argicultural) economies, the states seeking total autonomy decided to band together as a common cause, and the geographic line separating the two factions coincidentally also separated the northern half of the empire from the southern half. On this planet the directions seem to have been reversed, however.

Where the current situation is different is that Omni-tek has actually granted the clans the independence they sought. And what has the clan response been? To stage raids on lawful omni mining operations, and to attack bystanders who were not oppressing them in any way.

Certainly you may argue not all clans are guilty of these acts of aggression. However, many of the remaining clans ignore what their brethren have done and actively try to thwart individuals and organizations seeking reparations, even though they have nothing to gain or lose either way. It is only reasonable to assume that these groups are puppets of the hostile clans, through fear, ignorance, or greed.

Returning to the ancient war, it is known that the southern states practiced slavery. Admittedly the conditions of most factory workers in the north were hardly better, but it leads me to look for modern parallels.

This brings me to the atrox question: Why are there so many Atrox among the clans? It could be, just possibly, that enough have left Omni-tek to account for the numbers. If not...well, there needs to be some accountability somewhere.

For the record, I have nothing against atrox. Some of my best friends are atrox. but that breed has one distinguishing characteristic setting it apart from the others--Atrox can't reproduce.

Think about what this means. Modern clan atrox are not descended from other clan atrox...that is medically impossible. They had to be created, not of their free will, but someone else's, which leads to the questions of who and why.

Were they created by Omni-tek or some other corporation, and then chose to join the clans? Then all is well, they deserve their freedom.

But should they turn out to be created by the clans, the second question is damning....why? Why would someone create an atrox? The obvious answer is for a labor force, but accusing the clans of hypocrisy is just the most obvious choice.

Are they being created for military service? The thought of creating sentient beings specifically so they can sacrifice their lives for you is apalling, but not inconceivable. It can even be understood that someone truly desparate might do this as a last resort. Note I said understandable, not forgivable.

This leaves one other option, namely that atrox are being created as "pets" or "toys." Both of these are equally disturbing, and I'm personally disgusted by the thought--I really don't know whether it's better or worse than the previous possibility.

I want, no, I DEMAND that the clans account for every last atrox among their population...preferably with verification by ICC or some other independent organization so we don't have accusations flying around about who manipulated the information.

[Xhairs]

So Joshua, you want to draw lines of similarity between the Clans and the old Amerika of Earth? The country that had probably them most brainwashed population of them all?

(OOC: Just an RP statement. Look at how the US is today and how people would look at its state in a few thousand years and you´ll get my point.)

[joshuacrime]

Would that be slavery or the dispossesion of the Native American?

Target hit. Very good, Savoy.

/bow

But you are nitpicking. I'm talking about the formation of the document and the rules it applies to. You are referring to greedy, disgusting, corpulent and corrupt politicians and military leaders who used their own religious beliefs as an excuse to steal everything the Native Americans owned. That is NOT this debate, so please remove that "hippy" attitude from the discussion. You are 100% correct, but that's not what we are talking about here.

As for the new book writer, welcome aboard. I can see that you and me are going to have a lot of fun. Perhaps we need our own column. He Said, Drone Said.

I don't see how this applies. By your own admission this is not what the clans want.

I think it is, and I think that is what the CoT is slowly becoming. Show me anywhere in my statements where I cancel out my own thinking. Please, I'm waiting.

If you want to draw comparisons with that particular empire, there were at one time many states within that empire that believed they had the right to govern themselves as they saw fit without bending to the will of some unifying authority. These states declared their independence from that empire. In what seems to be an amazing parallel to the current situation, the portion of the states that opposed this were the the ones with industrial (rather than argicultural) economies, the states seeking total autonomy decided to band together as a common cause, and the geographic line separating the two factions coincidentally also separated the northern half of the empire from the southern half. On this planet the directions seem to have been reversed, however.

This is thoroughly irrelevant to the topic at hand, as my comparison was being made to how powers are taken from implication, rather than from the letter of an agreement. Your historical knowledge is quite good, and I applaud that. Erudite debating opponents give me a challenge, and I find this encouraging. However, your logic is somewhat murky. Oh well, I can't expect everything.

Where the current situation is different is that Omni-tek has actually granted the clans the independence they sought. And what has the clan response been? To stage raids on lawful omni mining operations, and to attack bystanders who were not oppressing them in any way.

Your one-sided attitudes are all quite irksome, really. It's like the old saying about men and women. A woman thinks that the only time a man is right is when he admits he is wrong. But, honestly, can you all just give up this lopsided attitude of yours? Let me spell it out more plainly.

Omni-Tek did NOT give Clan its independence. The ICC did. Omni-Tek was likely planning some variation of a "Final Solution" to take care of the Clan problems when the ICC stepped in and did what it did. Omni-Tek made concessions to the ICC because it knew that if it didn't, Rubi-Ka would be open for business to everyone and we also would probably be looking at a big smoking hole in the ground as opposed to Omni-HQ. Please, spare us the "I do EVERYTHING for you, and this is the thanks I get!" speech. Omni-Tek is not my mother.

Certainly you may argue not all clans are guilty of these acts of aggression. However, many of the remaining clans ignore what their brethren have done and actively try to thwart individuals and organizations seeking reparations, even though they have nothing to gain or lose either way. It is only reasonable to assume that these groups are puppets of the hostile clans, through fear, ignorance, or greed.

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? Puppets of hostile clans? No, this line of reasoning is only wishful thinking for Omni mud daubers (that's a wasp, by the way) that need something to "dig back at Clan" for all the bad things Omni diid in it's past. This IS the main reason why the war still rages on. And that, is because Omni-Tek cannot ever admit wrongdoing for the past. The continuation of placing the blame on Clan for things that Omni-Tek has done is the sole reason we still fight today. And here you are, doing it again. And you still have the cajones to continue doing it. Now that's impressive. I'm surprised you can walk with balls that large. Do you need a wheelbarrow to haul those big balls around with?

As for the whole "Clan is creating Atrox slave workers" theme you are trying to paint...dear Lord. That is a good one. I have never seen so much blame shifting in one post in all of my life. You are taking the prize here. There is no need for debate here on such a topic. Atroxes, unlike nanomages, are free to leave the planet and do whatever it is that they like, go wherever they want and do anything they like. Clan, unlike Omni, does not take censuses of any kind, and frankly there is no reason to for the moment. We don't worry about it. And if you want to make such scurrilious accusations again, I suggest you think about what it is you are asking before opening up your piehole. It's a pretty thin attack and I see right through it. It's essentially pointing a finger and casting blame on an enemy and asking for proof to discount your accusation by asking the opposition a question that cannot be answered. It's an old debating trick, and it is beneath me. Nice try.

[Marisha]

The rights to mine were not the rights to govern. That is not how I read the lease agreement. I read the lease agreement as to be allowed to exploit the natural resources of the planet, and not to create your totalitarian nightmare ruled by a dictator/demagogue, free to do whatever he felt like doing, just as long as the bottom line was secure. It was this governmental faux pas that eventually created the conflict we currently find ourselves embroiled in.

Okay, I’ve read your history lesson about how your upright caveman demigod changed his governing documents to allow himself to do an action that the other caveman just wanted to do. I’ve read your claim that you do not agree that you believe the lease only deals with mining rights. In the end, your argument against why Omni-Tek is described as the superior governing body of Rubi-Ka as documented in the ICC lease of 28708 comes down to “I don’t agree with that, it’s a typo, your interpreting it wrong, and the ICC is bankrolled by SBC and the Dust Brigade.”

As for following this caveman’s example, we did amend the lease. Clans Rights Treaty, 29223, and things were good for five generations, until Clan-affiliated terrorists decided that one hundred and fifty years of democratic self rule wasn’t good enough.

(OOC: Just an RP statement. Look at how the US is today and how people would look at its state in a few thousand years and you´ll get my point.)

((OOC: Or how people view the political accomplishments of the Cro-Magnons in 25,000 BCE ))

[Riawn]

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? Puppets of hostile clans? No, this line of reasoning is only wishful thinking for Omni mud daubers (that's a wasp, by the way) that need something to "dig back at Clan" for all the bad things Omni diid in it's past.

Ah, so now you compare us to the solitary members of hymenoptera and not the vast majority of that order, with their hive behavior. It's good to see that some clanners can make intellectual progress occasionally, however slight it may be.

As for the whole "Clan is creating Atrox slave workers" theme you are trying to paint...dear Lord. That is a good one. I have never seen so much blame shifting in one post in all of my life. You are taking the prize here. There is no need for debate here on such a topic.

Blame-shifting? You're the one who brought up the comparison with the ancient Unistat empire. I was just pondering the analogy to show how outrageous your claims really were.

Atroxes, unlike nanomages, are free to leave the planet and do whatever it is that they like, go wherever they want and do anything they like.

Ah, but the questione wasn't "Where are they going?" The question was "Where are they coming from?" There's a huge difference, as Atrox have no choice in whether they are created.

Clan, unlike Omni, does not take censuses of any kind, and frankly there is no reason to for the moment. We don't worry about it. And if you want to make such scurrilious accusations again, I suggest you think about what it is you are asking before opening up your piehole.

Hmm...asking clans to verify that they are indeed fighting for freedom, and you say they lack both the means and the desire to do so. Interesting.

It's a pretty thin attack and I see right through it. It's essentially pointing a finger and casting blame on an enemy and asking for proof to discount your accusation by asking the opposition a question that cannot be answered. It's an old debating trick, and it is beneath me. Nice try.

So you're saying you don't know whether the clans are practicing slavery or not, you have no intentions of trying to find out, and the fact that no one has previously tried to determine the truth justifies the conclusion that no one should?

In essence, what you're claiming is that Omni-tek is fully accountable for all events on this planet since the initial colonization, while the clans can't be held accountable for their own actions, even by their own people, even just in theory?

I don't know whether to be shocked at your double standards, or to be proud that you've finally admitted Omni-tek is the only legitimate authority on Rubi-ka.

[joshuacrime]

Okay, I’ve read your history lesson about how your upright caveman demigod changed his governing documents to allow himself to do an action that the other caveman just wanted to do. I’ve read your claim that you do not agree that you believe the lease only deals with mining rights. In the end, your argument against why Omni-Tek is described as the superior governing body of Rubi-Ka as documented in the ICC lease of 28708 comes down to “I don’t agree with that, it’s a typo, your interpreting it wrong, and the ICC is bankrolled by SBC and the Dust Brigade.”

Now, I enjoy your little "cro mag" comparison here, but I doubt very seriously that you may call yourself more "evolved" than they are. You and I may have more in the way of better technology and some increased knowledge in science, but to call those people "primitive apes" is just...well...condescending in the extreme, especially when they were quite adroit at politics, diplomacy and (for their time) science and philosophy. Not to mention that the MUSIC was better back then than it is now. So I think we can throw art in there as well. No, I think they were doing just fine in the mental capacity department. Simply because they existed in a time long since past does not make them inferior to you. Simply thinking the way that you do by merely dismissing them outright and not looking at the accomplishments that they made is quite "primitive" and "unenlightened".

As for my other debater, well...maybe this won't be so much fun after all. I'm glad you can look up the genus names for certain insectoid types. It's so refreshing to know that Omni has a nice library system. Wow, that's really something.

But, since we've decided to attempt to turn the tables on me here (which you have not even remotely succeeded at), I think it only fair that I get to play too. Cool.

Ah, but the questione wasn't "Where are they going?" The question was "Where are they coming from?" There's a huge difference, as Atrox have no choice in whether they are created.

I didn't have much choice in where I was created either. It was merely a matter of where my ugly but wonderful nanomage parents decided to have sex. I didn't have a say in it at all. What in the blue blazes does THAT have to do with this argument? If you're suggesting that Clan is creating a huge force of Atrox slaves, then I want to see your proof. Quit just making **** up. I want to see what you can dig up about this. It's nice to make yet another undetractable claim, but it's another to continually harp on it and use it to assert your "superiority" in debate. It's shabby tactics at best. Do better, please. It's really embarrasssing. If you are so adamant about the claim, I would like to know where OT is coming up with their new members that shop at the Big, Tall and Nadless clothing store. Oh, but you have always made more of those, as you made the originals. And I don't think you shared the blueprints with anyone, did you? No, probably not.

As for making the simpleton accusation that I have no care about finding out whether Clan is making a slave race of any kind, well, I can say two things about that. First off, it goes against the entire Clan ethos. We treasure all who flock under the banner of Clan, regardless of their race. If they turn out to be big dip****s later, well...that's for each and every person to decide for themselves how to deal with them. Secondly, by even thinking that your statement even has the slightest bit of truth to it, and by investigating it, I merely give you what you want, which is another unprovable assertion that you can point to. I don't care if you think we are holding pens full of our lesser intelligent race or not. It's a simple matter of proof. Put up, or shut up. I'm sure with as many spies as you have out there, you could find out quite easily if you wanted to. I'm not doing your leg work for you, and in the end, what does it prove if I can find nothing? You'll just say that I didn't attempt it, and I'm hiding something. The whole assertion is not provable. So who cares what you think about it? I am not losing any sleep, because I simply know it's not true.

In essence, what you're claiming is that Omni-tek is fully accountable for all events on this planet since the initial colonization, while the clans can't be held accountable for their own actions, even by their own people, even just in theory?

No, you're saying that. I'm saying that there is a rich history of Omni misdeeds, carefully documented and attested to as fact. Your claim is just bull****, and trying to make your claim any more regal by making a comparison to them is more bull****. It's dishonest debating to the core. I'd be ashamed of myself if I were you.

I don't know whether to be shocked at your double standards, or to be proud that you've finally admitted Omni-tek is the only legitimate authority on Rubi-ka.

There is no double standard. Your claim is based on supposition and a big fat lie that you want others to help you gain more credence to. And I'll never admit that Omni-Tek is the only legitimate authority on the planet, because it's not true. Even Marisha, that old whip, can tell you that much.

I have to admit I was wrong. You're a terrible debater, and I am going to find this extremely painful in the future. I can see this already.

[joshuacrime]

Okay, I’ve read your history lesson about how your upright caveman demigod changed his governing documents to allow himself to do an action that the other caveman just wanted to do. I’ve read your claim that you do not agree that you believe the lease only deals with mining rights. In the end, your argument against why Omni-Tek is described as the superior governing body of Rubi-Ka as documented in the ICC lease of 28708 comes down to “I don’t agree with that, it’s a typo, your interpreting it wrong, and the ICC is bankrolled by SBC and the Dust Brigade.”

My history lesson was designed to point out two differing points of view on how to claim power for things. I do not agree with your claims that you had any more rights than mining because you were given a lease to exploit the natural resources of this planet. Not to create the government that you did. We read this two different ways, and my history lesson was there to show that it's not exactly a new thing. You apparently missed that little missive. I'm sorry, I can point to the example but I cannot make you think about it or interpret it correctly.

And in the end, you did make concessions to Clan, but as I mentioned in another post, it was because of forced attrition, and not because you thought it was the proper and right thing to do. And if I think that a law is unjust, unfair and one-sided, by my own (and also by Clan's) philosophy, I shall not follow it. Your original claim to this planet as governers MIGHT have some basis in fact by your interpretations of what a "lease" is, but I think that once you became the host from Hell, any such interpretations are null and void in my eyes, and in the eyes of all Clan. Just because the space lawyer says it's still binding and de facto law means squat to me. You lost your moral (and in my eyes, legal) authority to rule this planet when OT became a monster. It's a matter of disobedience at that point, civil or not.

Make an unjust law, and I guarentee you it will be disobeyed. It's as simple as that. In fact, Old Earth jurisprudence (the case law type, since you love legal things and all) had a nice little stipulation built into it's jury systems, which gave juries the right to nullify cases based upon laws it found to be unreasonable or simply wrong in their eyes. I see nothing different about doing this now as they would have done then. And we'll continue to do so until such time as the law is not an ass.

[Dabblez]

As for making the simpleton accusation that I have no care about finding out whether Clan is making a slave race of any kind, well, I can say two things about that. First off, it goes against the entire Clan ethos. .

That is a bold statement. I do wonder where you get all your information on the Clan ethos? My impression of the Clans, especially when I look that the aims of the legacy Clans, is that their views are varied and often at odds with other Clans. Unless you can support this generalisations about Clan ethos and ideals with facts and numbers, your are not really going to make much of an impression on your readers.

Savoy

[Riawn]

If you are so adamant about the claim, I would like to know where OT is coming up with their new members that shop at the Big, Tall and Nadless clothing store. Oh, but you have always made more of those, as you made the originals. And I don't think you shared the blueprints with anyone, did you? No, probably not.

((There's a bit more to be included later, but if Funcom announced they were shutting down portions of the web site during the upgrade in addition to the game server, I missed it, and I would have waited until I could cut and paste a reference. Suffice it to say, I have seen in either the timeline or here in the forums that OT licensed a method of producing atrox to other companies, in which case you are quite incorrect.))

As for making the simpleton accusation that I have no care about finding out whether Clan is making a slave race of any kind, well, I can say two things about that. First off, it goes against the entire Clan ethos.

What goes against the clan ethos? Slavery or caring?

So who cares what you think about it? I am not losing any sleep, because I simply know it's not true.

Or you're simply covering it up. (I love using clanner-brand logic against clanners!)

No, you're saying that. I'm saying that there is a rich history of Omni misdeeds, carefully documented and attested to as fact.

I've never argued otherwise. You, on the other hand, proudly proclaim that the clans can do no wrong simply because they do not keep records of their misdeeds.

Isn't it refreshing to see ancient practices resurface in modern times? Your statement reminds me of how some ancient Egyptian pharoahs would have the names of disliked predecessors removed from all monuments, on the apparent supposition that this erased their existence from the past. I thought humanity had grown beyond such thinking 30000 years ago, but apparently it's still being carried on in the northern parts of Rubi-ka.

[Naefen]

And we'll continue to do so until such time as the law is not an ass.

You presume that Rubi Ka will ever see a law system witch can make everybody happy but that is nothing but a dream. A dream of a place called Paradise. A place you should have read about with all your knowledge of different mythologys and ancient earth history.
And so you prove yourself, once again, to not care diddly-squat about trying to create a law system that is functional. You arent so deluded you really believe in a society free of any criminal activity are you?

However ,if you can produce a flawless proposal where the law lets each citizen do as he wants (the clan way) and at the same time provide a safe environment for the population Id be the first one to read and congratulate.

From what I read from your statement ,today, I see nothing but another blind clanner screaming for hes right to be a criminal.

[Marisha]

Now, I enjoy your little "cro mag" comparison here, but I doubt very seriously that you may call yourself more "evolved" than they are.

Actually, I do. Homo Sapiens went extinct, Homo Solitus evolved from them, Homo Opifex and Nano engineered from Solitus stock. I think both you and I have a leg up over these

As for their achievements, they did develop fire, primitive corporations, and Catholicism. Homo Solitus has developed technology that would most likely be seen as magic to the Sapiens and spread through the universe and colonized hundreds of worlds. I believe the advantage goes to the Solitus on this one.

Not to mention that the MUSIC was better back then than it is now. So I think we can throw art in there as well.

I’d like to see how you quantify that opinion.

I'm sorry, I can point to the example but I cannot make you think about it or interpret it correctly.

Just like how I can’t make you interpret the lease correctly.

And in the end, you did make concessions to Clan, but as I mentioned in another post, it was because of forced attrition, and not because you thought it was the proper and right thing to do.

So, at the close of the first civil war, when the request was made by the ICC to address our policies with the clans, and we drafted the Clans Rights Treaty, were we in error in doing so, because at that point, we were acting like a government?

In fact, Old Earth jurisprudence (the case law type, since you love legal things and all) had a nice little stipulation built into it's jury systems, which gave juries the right to nullify cases based upon laws it found to be unreasonable or simply wrong in their eyes. I see nothing different about doing this now as they would have done then. And we'll continue to do so until such time as the law is not an ass.

Well, if the monkeys did it, and if the law can be quantified as “ass,” then nullifying the law must be good, correct? It’s statements like these that make me wonder if the clans are ready for self-government, or if allowing you home rule will just lead to continued violence and chaos.

[joshuacrime]

...since your arguments are merely dismissive, and carry no sense of weight. Your obdurate insistence on claiming that:

1. Homo Sapiens are any less evolved that Homo Solitus is sheer nonsense at it's finest. Evolution is a natural occurance, not an engineered one. Technological change to a species does not make them more evolved. But, the "monkeys" had quite a lot going for them, and they understand far more about proper political, philosophical and ethical theory than you seem to be able to, not to mention Omni-Tek as a whole. The only monkeys I see around here are the simians that wear black armor and are led by the nose by the big alpha ape. Banana, anyone?

2. The interpretation of your lease is anything more than a naked power grab due to your overextending the rights as were written is just 100% rationalization. You know as well as I that "leasing rights" do not equate "totalitarian government". I am finding it difficult to understand what is so hard about differentiating these two very different levels of power strata. Apparently, Omni-Tek just did whatever the hell it wanted to, and only because it had the power of the gun. Nothing more, nothing less. Your predecesors took what they wanted to take by force. Simple and plain. I'm sorry that your narrow minded corporate shill thought processes cannot take you beyond that logic, but there is no sense in arguing with a pig. It only forces you to their level, and annoys the pig, because the pig just doesn't get it. (And this is not a personal swipe, either, but an allegory to stubborn creatures that can't comprehend the simplest of concepts).

3. The concept of forced attrition is not difficult to interpret either. It's quite simple. OT did very bad, evil deeds. OT were subsequently chastised for it by the ICC. To make amends for this, you took part in the creation of the Clan Rights treaty, giving Clan the right to govern themselves in the areas given to Clan. Not to be harrassed and bullied by Omni-Tek whenever the corporation thought it could get away with it. But you did not do so because your corporation felt remorse, it did so because you stood to lose more than it was worth to continue your course of action. The big bone-crushing machine that is Omni-Tek covered it's ass, hedged it's bets and did what it needed to do to keep that profit flowing off the planet. Not because you thought you did anything wrong. It was your fear of overwhelming sanctions by the ICC. This concept is so old that it warrants no further explanation. Read St. Thomas Aquinus or St. Augustine if you need help with the idea.

As for acting like a government, only in your own deranged and power hungry minds could you even dream of calling it that. You did what you did completely out of self-interest for the corporation, and nothing more. The ICC would have pulled the plug on your little game here had you continued what it was you were doing before they forced your hand and made you give concessions to the people that you screwed over time and time again. The concept of government in the eyes of Omni-Tek is to do anything necessary to keep the corporation's profits flowing. Which is not the concept of Clan's version of government. And never the twain shall meet. I suppose you could call what Omni-Tek is a "government", as much as any cybernetic (and that's the control theory, not the improper usage of the term to describe implant technology) hive-mind autocracy can be called one.

I believe that this one-tracked corporate zombie thinking is another example of technological "evolution" gone berserk. To top that all off, the level of fanaticism exuded by OT personnel leads me to believe it's more of a religious entity than a corporation. With money as your God.

Perhaps we need to name a new genus and species to categorize this bizarre subset of creatures apart from the rest of us that act like human beings instead of a big ant colony with guns. From now on, when I am forced to actually waste precious oxygen molecules to force air through my larynx, you shall be yclept Opicus Omnicus. Nice, concise and suitable for framing.

Hmmm, wonder if I'll get a prize for my new classification from the Jobe Scientists.

[joshuacrime]

What goes against the clan ethos? Slavery or caring?

Do I even have to answer this statement? No, I do not. It's a childish notion.

Or you're simply covering it up. (I love using clanner-brand logic against clanners!)

No, there is fact based upon evidence, and then there is bull****. Circular logic doesn't impress me in the slightest. In fact, it's one of the first things you learn as a novice debater. When you are able to produce evidence of Clan creating a slave race of Atrox, I'll allow credence to your argument. Making an accusation based upon supposition and then making the condition of countering the argument based upon giving you proof of some imaginary event is just...well...scatterbrained.

I've never argued otherwise. You, on the other hand, proudly proclaim that the clans can do no wrong simply because they do not keep records of their misdeeds.

Isn't it refreshing to see ancient practices resurface in modern times? Your statement reminds me of how some ancient Egyptian pharoahs would have the names of disliked predecessors removed from all monuments, on the apparent supposition that this erased their existence from the past. I thought humanity had grown beyond such thinking 30000 years ago, but apparently it's still being carried on in the northern parts of Rubi-ka.

I have never once posted that Clan has never done anything that could be construed as being wrong. The difference between us here is the relationship between the aggressor and the retaliator. When you shoot first, you are the aggressor, and any response in kind is just that, retaliation. In more base terms, it's a survival instinct. The injured animal strikes out at his tormentor to either provide him with an escape or a way of neutralizing the threat. The entity that begins the fight is the lesser in every moral, ethical and logical sense of the word. Once you become an aggressor, you lose your position as anyone that can come back to the same argument time and time again as a "victim". You are no such thing. For every event that Clan did something that Omni describes as "terroristic" is a response. Or what I would call a reactionary response. Any statements to the effect in any other way, shape or form is simply incorrect.

As far as ancient practices, yes, I am very familiar with a good many ancient civilizations. I think you'll find that the distilled corrolation to your statment is "the victor writes the history". There are examples of this in every form of civilization going all the way back to the Sumerians. Certainly the Earth nation of Great Britain did it more times than even they remember. No nation back there can even begin to say they weren't guilty of it. My statements do not come within a parsec of this. II'm not at all certain where you are even going with this one, but in a nutshell, the history of most things is suspect because what is written was usually written by the entity that was victorious. The true historian must read many different points of view about a particular era or people or subject and seperate the wheat ffrom the chaff. It's always useful to be able to write something down from a book you pick up, it's quite another to be able to absorb the lesson and use it in your immediate thinking and apply it correctly to a subject being discussed. There is no time in a real debate to be looking it all up. You must KNOW it.

[joshuacrime]

That is a bold statement. I do wonder where you get all your information on the Clan ethos? My impression of the Clans, especially when I look that the aims of the legacy Clans, is that their views are varied and often at odds with other Clans. Unless you can support this generalisations about Clan ethos and ideals with facts and numbers, your are not really going to make much of an impression on your readers.

My information about the Clan ethos comes from Clan itself. Supporting my generalizations about it is quite simple, because every Clanner says it. The Clan ethos is freedom from oppression and from things that wish to oppress free Rubi-Ka citizens everywhere. Every Clanner here will tell you that freedom is the reason they became a Clanner when they first walked through those Monty Hall doors at the entrance port to Rubi-Ka.

But, in the logical sense, no one wrote it all down for us to mold ourselves into. Therefore, your insistence of expressing political ideals into numbers and "facts" isn't going to be given to you, because there are no such formula sets available to be able to determine it. Clanners may have differing views on how to attain the freedom we want and continue to strive for, but the underlying root cause is plain for anyone that can listen and comprehend to see. Freedom is our watchword, and liberty is the goal we all try to attain.

So, by your logic, if I wish to attain more readers (which I don't really care about), I need to make it all nice and simple for everyone that doesn't have the freedom that we do. We are free from the bonds of corporate slavery. We are free from the nagging questions about self-determination and individual responsibility, for we live it on a day to day basis. It is not something we need to describe or interpret. It is who we are. I feel sorry for most Omni-Tek personnel, I really do. How you can go through life this way is beyond my wildest imagination. Really, unless you are the lead sled dog, you are always looking at someone else's butt. Which is not how I intend on living my life. I do it on my own terms, how I want, when I want and where I want to do it at. Only I am responsible for my own actions. And only I will answer for them.

To complete the thesis, the logic devestates the notion that Clan could ever foster slavery within it's own ranks, for that is the very thing we fight against every day of our existence. For anyone to say any different is either a lying propaganda machine or a deluded fanatic who will believe anything they are told by the lead sled dog.

[Dabblez]

I have never once posted that Clan has never done anything that could be construed as being wrong. The difference between us here is the relationship between the aggressor and the retaliator. When you shoot first, you are the aggressor, and any response in kind is just that, retaliation. In more base terms, it's a survival instinct. The injured animal strikes out at his tormentor to either provide him with an escape or a way of neutralizing the threat.

Or in legal terms, you are appealing to the "Mommy, but he started it!" clause.

At what exact point do you determine who struck the first blow?

But perhaps what is more relevant is this; at one point does retaliation no longer serve the cause of self-defence but actually just fuels the fire and forces the otherside into further retaliation of its own?

And this really goes for either side. Omni view their atacks on Clanners are a response to Clan attacks on Omni peronnel and property, Clanners view their attacks on Omni as justified by Omni raids on them. How is that for circular logic?

If the only reason we are fighting each other is because 'the other guy is fighting us' then we truely do deserve to be wiped out by alien invaders.

Savoy

[Xhairs]

Rotate the drilling metal fastening device about this. We have more important things to deal with. Take it up after we kick those aliens of our planet.

[Marisha]

Indeed. Time will tell if the reborn CoT is up to the challenge nature has thrown to them. While I don’t believe that this alien planetary assault will bring the conflict between Omni-Tek and the clans to a halt, it should slow it down a bit. However, I have no objections to assaulting clans who attack Omni-Tek during this crisis.

Also, Mr. Crimes, when one species is unable to adapt to a sudden change in their environment, and a new and genetically distinct species arises from them that is suited to fill their gap in the ecosystem, I think that is a pretty clear indication of evolution at work.

[joshuacrime]

Also, Mr. Crimes, when one species is unable to adapt to a sudden change in their environment, and a new and genetically distinct species arises from them that is suited to fill their gap in the ecosystem, I think that is a pretty clear indication of evolution at work.

Bull. One species that is unable to adapt to a sudden change in their environment is merely the lesser of the two species in that particular instance. All it takes is one thing to remove them from the picture. Two species of fish, let's say, occupy the same lake. They don't get along in the ecosystem for whatever reason. Some curious onlooker decides that he likes one species of fish better than the other, so he straps "friggin laser beams to their heads". That species wins the battle and occupies the space. Is that "evolution"? Nope, it's technological advancement. Evolution is an extremely lengthy event that takes place naturally, and not by engineering and scientific advancements in your toolset. Oh, I suppose you can argue that man's ascendency on old Earth is due to his opposable thumb and his ability to use tools, and the tools made becoming dominant far easier and is largely credited with their most important facet when dealing with their rise to the top of the food chain. But it's not because of the tools. Is dealing with a horrible catastrophic change in environment better than another simply due to evolution? No. It's being suited to the environment more than the other as a consequence of their physiology, not due to evolutionary forces. I'm afraid your claim of superiority to "Cro Magnon" is a bit far-fetched.

Anyway, I agree with you all, there is far too much work to be done here, and I always welcome any signs of cooperation when dealing with this Alien menace. See you out there, covered in green goo.