Sound and Fury, Signifying Nothing

[joshuacrime]

...I will only say this. Non serviam. I agree to follow laws that uphold fairness, justice, truth and honor. I see little of that coming from the laws of Omni-Tek. I don't honestly see enough from most Clanners, but at least the Clan ethos is one of individual freedom and not the beehive worker state that is Omni-Tek.

Omni-Tek ain't MY friend, I can tell you that much. Neither are the Sentinels, the Dust Brigade, the bloody Pilgrims or any other faction. I don't even belong to an organization. I am my own man, and to quote Alistair Crowley, "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". The unwritten addendum to his very sage advice is "thou wilt alone be responsible for what thou hast done".

I desire peace, but on MY terms. That includes peace from propaganda, from corporate brainwashing that masquerades as "education", and from monolithic profit buzzsaws that rob us, enslave us and drain everything it touches. Peace from the guns of the soldiers that don't agree with my politics or my personal philosophy. Just peace.

Once I hear THAT coming from Mr. Ross, I will believe that Omni-Tek desires peace. Until then, expect more vitriol. I'm rather good at it, I think.

[Naefen]

Id like to congratulate you on two of your very first posts that has not angered me.

As I understand it no clanner at all are bound by the CoT`s decisions. The are a council and as such they ,in my mind, can council and then advice. Wether clanners individually follow theyre advice is totally up to themselfes. This is the way I understand it.

Now, as for Omni Tek employees marching in lines. Our beloved chairman Mr.Ross will tell us what our next course of action ,as a corporation will be. However, who signs up to follow that course is infact voluntarily. Those who do not follow the planned course may,within the corporations laws and regulations, go ahead on theyre own planned course.
Omni Tek has a main line witch theyre employees are encouraged to follow. This is why we are a strong corporation throughout the universe. This is why we have the ability to create a satisfying environment for all.

Lets say,worst case scenario, the clans run Omni Tek and everyone else off this planet. "Free" men would walk all over it claiming what they mean is right for them and as such should be allowed.
Can I say...... mayhem?

[Astera]

Originally posted by Savoy
Cogs,

We must isolate the hardliners, not given them our unconditional, implicit support just becasue an accident of history has put us on the same side. People have to start thing thinking for themselves rather than allow their actions to be dictated by fear or habit.

How can this be done in pactice?

1. Isolate the hardliners. Do not support the hardliners of your side just becasue they are on your side.

And please, never forget, anyone pushing for war is doing the dirty work of the Dust Brigade!

Savoy

Spoken like a true champion for peace. Lets Isolate those that do not think like the rest of us! Their opinion is not valid in the least, they do the work of the Dust Brigade!

Start thinking for yourself by isolating your own people today.

Its them, not us.

*laughs out loud*

[Vixentrox]

Originally posted by Savoy


And please, never forget, anyone pushing for war is doing the dirty work of the Dust Brigade!

Savoy

It's nice that you have access to the Dusters long range goals and plans. You must be allied with them to have such knowledge. Or is this just speculation?

[joshuacrime]

I didn't offend anyone? Mein Gott im Himmel! I'm doing something very wrong here. I'm not saying anything different, but I am pointing out that I'm not as crotchety as I'm made out to be. I just like to point at what I consider to be ridiculous ideas, propaganda and nefarious lies with a big finger, draw a big exclamation point over the top of it and scream at the top of my lungs in a loud voice, "B*******".

Now, getting onto what I consider to be offers of peace and the lack thereof. Certainly I see a lot of Omni-Tek employees getting a bit fed up with the direction the corporation takes, the fingers that get pointed at IT as the doer of evil and the damage it takes and deals out as this big homonculus. Good for you. Perhaps when Omni-Tek does something nefarious, evil or destructive under the guise of "corporate harmony" or "for the good of the body corporate" or whatever you wish to call it, you will stand up to those big black armored bozos there in Omni-HQ, and start protesting. Man, I can't wait for that. I'll be waiting for you at the Reclaims when you try that.

I know, a lot of OT employees are under the self-delusion that tells them that what they say, think or do matters to Phillip Ross or the body of the corporation. Well, it does not, insofar as you do nothing against the corporation itself. What OT's leader does is his own affair, and I'm sure he's got his minders and watchers from Omni-Prime as well. But here on Rubi-Ka, he is the MAN as far as OT people are concerned.

If Phillip Ross tells you to go into Old Athen and start attacking it's citizens as a "preemptive attack on certain terrorist threats within the city", do you follow his orders? If you are the more outgoing and thoughtful OT person, perhaps you do not. And then you fly in the face of OT's corporate policies, and you would likely be branded a traitor, a criminal, or worse, and sent to be reeducated. Certainly OT still maintains reeducation centers. I'm quite certain that they do.

Despite what YOU do, the OTAF, the Omni-Pol troopers and every yahoo with a corporate contract and an weapon will be out doing what Phillip Ross tells them to do. And they WILL do it. Despite your willingness to look at the corporation in a slightly different manner than the rank-and-file soldiers, they do not hinge their actions on YOUR word.

Don't expect sympathy from me in regards to your choice. You choose a very amoral side of this conflict, where the individual choice is muted and smothered by the gargantuan black beast, and where one man holds sway over trillions of people and more credits than they probably even have a number for. Your voice is NOT heard. It is merely collected with the rest and expected to fall in line with everyone else. Of course, some of you do decide to go off of the reservation, but I don't think you last very long in the Corporation when you do. You decided to dance with the Devil and now you must reap the thunder.

[Xhairs]

Joshua, you do realise that the same can be said about the Clans, with Ross being substituted with Silverstone, OTAF with Sentinels and so on.

So what would you have us do then? All the (by some arbitrary standard) good people leave OT and just leave the "Big black mass" and the hardliners left to run the show. What do you think would happen? I can tell you what would happen, and it would be genocide. Not like those thing hinted at here earlier, but full scale NBC warefare and other things that would make the war so far look like a walk in the backyard.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Vixentrox


It's nice that you have access to the Dusters long range goals and plans. You must be allied with them to have such knowledge. Or is this just speculation?

Consider this; the Dust Brigades raised to prominence during the Amnesty. They attacked targets on both Omni and Clan side, mostly faction leaders ( I myself escaped a Dust Brigade assasination attempt ) and culminating in the bombing of a residential appartment block in Omni Ent.

Once the peace process had been successfully derailed by this sudden surge of violence, the Dust Brigade pretty much ceased their campaign of terror.

You seem an intelligent person, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Savoy

[Kithraks]

Argh, why won't you people just sit down try talking? I'm tired of hearing the Clans complain how mean Omni-Tek have been to the grandparents' grandparent's grandparent's to the N-th power. I'm tired of hearing those within Omni-Tek that believe in wiping them out. Neither side is going anywhere and not a single person from either the Clans or Omni-Tek have been able to convince me that violence will do absoloutely anything in the next 50 or so years until the lease runs out.

Anyone care to explain just what does killing anyone have anything to do with a lease given by the ICC to Omni-Tek, Clans and in effect the Neutrals for the next 50 years? Or is everyone that is adamant about destroying the other side which based on replies by the way are nearly all Clanners too afraid of sitting down and not shooting the person sitting accross from them?

Administrator Houston out.

P.S. - By denying support to the possibility of peace, the Council of Truth, through their inaction are indirectly supporting an outcome of war.

[joshuacrime]

Really, Kithrak. It's one thing to curtail debate amongst ourselves. It's quite another to remove historical impacts of past events and how they have brought us to where we currently are as completely insignificant. I will agree that the things that brought about the war and the conditions of those times no longer exist, and probably too much is brought to bear on these events. Today, we are in a different boat. Today, we have a great number of interested (or disinterested) parties (when you consider the "nonaction" of the Neutral faction members). But surely, Omni-Tek DOES hinge upon the lease in it's bid to be the sole power on this planet as the raison d'etre for what it does. And surely does not Simon Silverstone fall into the category of the old Clan warleaders when he does the things he does? Certainly on both accounts.

Killing each other solves nothing but feeding the arms dealers, profiteers and black marketers. We don't get far doing these things. Yet, are basic questions and concerns of either side being answered? Not to everyone's satisfaction, or we wouldn't be killing each other, would we? It's safe to assume that certain people do it because they are bloodthirsty psychopaths, and we have plenty on either side of this conflict. It's also safe to assume that the war merchants love it, because they profit from the massive arms shipments that seem to keep coming here. It's a further certainty that certain interested sides (OTAF, Dust Brigade, Sentinels, private organizations on all sides, etc) don't ever want to see a peace. If peace were to break out, they would lose the power, influence and money that is made as a result of their doing what it is that they do, and this is something they cannot abide by.

I have no interest in sitting across from any of you that I debate with here in the terms of a peace negotiation. I certainly have no voice within the Council, and you DEFINITELY have no voice where Omni-Tek is concerned. How we act towards each other is different, but tantamount to small potatoes where this current conflict is concerned. I'm certain I'd be glad to share a beer with you somewhere, preferably a place where neither of us would get our butts filled full of buckshot and armor piercing munitions. But, that has nothing at all to do with the peace process. Level heads on either side must do that. The breaking of the Tir Accord by Omni-Tek was not a level headed decision. Nor is Simon Silverstone's statements about what he would do to any Neutral he meets or Omni he meets. No, neither of these events are very helpful. Neither is it going to be helpful for any of us here to actually say something about it, because you just make enemies of very powerful people and in the end it still serves no purpose. They will do what they want, how they want it, and as long as what they do serves their personal power, influence and money needs, they will continue to do so.

And lastly, "Administrator", a peace on our terms would leave Omni-Tek a simple corporation that does not have the political and military authority to rule this planet. It would be a goods and services merchant, a research mecca and a manufacturing giant. Surely you can do that and dispense with the armadas, can't you? No, I don't believe that Phillip Ross would agree to that. He would not agree in principle or in part to any reduction of his personal power in order to allow the people of Rubi-Ka to rule themselves democratically, develop their own military to defend the planet from domestic and off-planet threats, and choose the manner in which corporations may operate on it's territory.

No, your corporation is never going to be able to operate under that paradigm, and until it does, it does not meet the value criteria of Clan and is therefore a peace that would merely bring back the status quo of the past. The people are the sovereign, not the company, and until Omni-Tek is capable of acting in this manner, you may assume that Omni-Tek, by it's own inability to react positively and justly with the people that live here, that it is tacitly taking responsibility for a future war. It was once said that if the people won't do what you want, just elect a new people. That's Omni-Tek's way of thinking.

[joshuacrime]

...since I consider you to be a real soldier in the old soldier mold. No real soldier wants war. As a former trooper myself, I can assure you that I have no desire for it. It's corrupting influence on the souls of the fighters, it's profligate waste and it's utter ruination of everything it touches does nothing to assuage my anger about the current political situation we seem to be in.

Having said that, if the corporation is that stupid, that vengeful and that retarded to actually desire to use such horrific weapons upon the population of Rubi-Ka, than it is nothing more than an amorphous death machine that must be rooted out, fibre by fibre until all that is left of it is a smoking hulk. We as your victims are already dead men by this line of thinking, and therefore would have nothing to lose anyway. If you think you could do such a genocidal thing and walk away scot free, you'd be sadly mistaken. All sides have access to more weapons of this type than I think is even prudent, and you know the aphorism about the man who gazes into the Abyss. As a soldier, you should know very well that weapons of these sorts are not controllable, have gross impacts that leave nothing untouched, and are so voracious and persistent that they rarely ever go away.

Care to rule a blackened, smoking hulk of a planet where all life is extinguished, all manner of resources are destroyed and where nothing will ever again flourish above, on or below it? I think not. Threats (or warnings in your case) are as useless as a screen door in a submarine. Going back to the days of the old Earth histories, we find that many nations had such weapons at their disposal, and yet none could ever find a place to actually use them offensively, for in doing so, their own nation would have been obliterated from the face of the planet in retaliation. I believe you will find that the Mutually Assured Destruction paradigm of their day works quite well in this situation, and serves as a warning. If people on your corporate soil think that this is such a grand idea, perhaps you and your more level headed compatriots should be dealing with these elements. After all, they will destroy you too, not just us in Clan.

[Kithraks]

Originally posted by Joshua Crime
I have no interest in sitting across from any of you that I debate with here in the terms of a peace negotiation. I certainly have no voice within the Council, and you DEFINITELY have no voice where Omni-Tek is concerned.

With enough support I can make it so that they will have to listen. Of course, no one from the Clans publically supports peace. There haven't been any for the past year and a half at the least.

[Naefen]

You point out a very important problem here Joshuacrime. You say that Simon Silverstone is not even high-ranked enough to make a deal with Omni Tek or issue orders that really count. But then who amongst the clans actually count? If not a clan leader then who?
Ill help you out by answering it for you. No one. There arent any single clanner on the face off Rubi Ka who can make a decision that will be followed. Therefore the clans will never be trusted. How can they be? Theyre not even on the same side amongst themselfes.

[joshuacrime]

When I see one person beside Phillip Ross actually making a decision for Omni-Tek, then I'll start looking for reets and leets with snouts. When pigs fly. The arrogance of that statement leads me to the conclusion that we believe we have more power than we actually do. That's fine, I expect that sort of behavior from Omni-Tek employees. The corporate mindset that has it's eye on the prize!

And the important problem you seem to think is that important isn't that important to me. We don't have "rank" in Clan as you do in Omni-Tek. Oh, should we go about organizing ourselves in the mold of OT to suit your dim-witted diplomats? Can't think your way through a problem or something that wasn't in the manuals? Must be difficult to deal with, I'm sure. Meanwhile, I'll be in the bar, sipping my cocktails in the "I Don't Give A Damn" section.

I don't have to be on the same side as my fellow Clanners. We aren't the big murky inkblot upon the universe like OT is. We don't operate that way. We have a set of guidelines that carries us through the day. It's not on ink and paper, it's an ideal. And I don't care if OT can't understand this difference in how things work in the Universe. Oh, I forget, OT can't deal with any kind of rules it didn't impose first. Oh, drat! The impotence of it all!

[Keldros]

Originally posted by Joshua Crime

Care to rule a blackened, smoking hulk of a planet where all life is extinguished, all manner of resources are destroyed and where nothing will ever again flourish above, on or below it? I think not. Threats (or warnings in your case) are as useless as a screen door in a submarine. Going back to the days of the old Earth histories, we find that many nations had such weapons at their disposal, and yet none could ever find a place to actually use them offensively, for in doing so, their own nation would have been obliterated from the face of the planet in retaliation.

I believe what you are missing is that (if the clans most insistent about waging war against Omni-Tek are right) whether the surface of the planet is a charred, radiatioactive, and poisonous wasteland is largely irrelevant. Sure, it would be more expensive to use special protective gear or to automate their entire mining operation, but it might be less expensive than continuous all-out warfare. If bullets, blades, and disease are no longer serious concerns, it's fairly simple to provide protection from large amounts of radiation--we just don't see that type of protection in current armor because there are currently many other threats to health, and there is always a trade-off when optimizing protective gear for multiple threats.

If the militant clans make such total destruction more profitable than continued occupation accompanied by perpetual warfare, they are actually promoting the destruction of the clans by failing to limit their activities. As a nanobreed I have nowhere else I can live, so it is in support of my own survival (and the survival of my entire race) that I support peace between the clans and Omni-Tek.

[Marisha]

Originally posted by Joshua Crime
No real soldier wants war. As a former trooper myself, I can assure you that I have no desire for it. It's corrupting influence on the souls of the fighters, it's profligate waste and it's utter ruination of everything it touches does nothing to assuage my anger about the current political situation we seem to be in.

So, you don’t want a war. This is a good thing…

Originally posted by Joshua Crime
Oh, should we go about organizing ourselves in the mold of OT to suit your dim-witted diplomats? Can't think your way through a problem or something that wasn't in the manuals? Must be difficult to deal with, I'm sure. Meanwhile, I'll be in the bar, sipping my cocktails in the "I Don't Give A Damn" section.

But you don’t give a damn, and won’t take any action to see that a war doesn’t happen. Or am I misreading this?

Were not asking the clans to organize themselves into our image. Were asking for you to create a government. I'm talking about a real government, like the old Council of Truth, not the modern debating society with the same name. Why do we want this? Because it is difficult for us to deal with, correct. It’s a great deal easier to negotiate a reasonable settlement with one body than each and every clan on Rubi-Ka. It’s a simple economy of scale issue.

However, so long as the “I don’t give a damn” opinion prevails, the process will be drug out, the conflict will continue, and we’ll die of old age before there is any change to the current situation.

Yes, Omni-Tek is being selfish and dim-witted. Please.

[joshuacrime]

Of course I don't want a war. Who does? Even the most callous hearted monsters realize that war is wasteful. Well, maybe.

And of course it's difficult for OT to deal with the current state of the council in it's present form, and the sad truth is that it is just is not trying. Unless things are the way they used to be, the OT diplomats cannot be bothered to even give a go at any sort of protracted negotiations. Indeed, I don't see much effort at all coming from anywhere.

The newly formed CoT has a lot on it's plate, and I'm sure that they do not speak for all of Clan on certain issues. And it's OT personnel that keep threatening a war. Why are you insisting on the tired old hackneyed concept of "your inaction is tantamount to a declaration of war" when it will not be Clan that fires the first shot, will it? No, OT will launch any wars that occur, and I'm sorry, but your excuse is thin, flimsy and pitiful. No one will believe you except those that actually believe Omtron.

In the "coming war" (since when were we not having a war and since when is the cease fire active again), OT will fire the starting shot. That makes you the aggressor, and at that point, all bets are off as to who desires peace. We'll know who definitely does NOT.

And you are incorrect in that I don't give a damn about peace. That's ridiculous. However, your argument about "economy of scale" and "ease of negotiation" is not something that concerns me. On many occasions, there are multiple factions whose level of power dictates that they must be dealt with but at the same time they do not always lock step with the other factions that they loosely confederate with. I'm sorry.

And because of this, you can justify going to war? As I mentioned previously, starting a war as a way to solve a political problem is indicative of harebrained laziness, and also indicitave of the level of commitment that OT is willing to put a peace offer out there. Clan will not conform to the needs of the OT Diplomatic Corps in order to satisfy your inflexible negotiators. If you truly desire peace, then prove it. Because of this bullheaded attitude, I do not care one whit about the problems of the peace solution. We are willing to go to a peace negotiation as is. You won't do it because we won't fall in line with Omni's vision of a "government". So sad. Oh well.

[joshuacrime]

...I was not aware that it is not possible to see that what I'm mentioning is a last act of defiance against a corporation that already wants me dead. It is not what I would propose as a natural active strategy. It is a threat to answer the threat that was already being proposed.

This is such simple logic, I don't know how to begin to explain it. I'm stumped.

[Keldros]

Originally posted by Joshua Crime
We are willing to go to a peace negotiation as is.

Does this include the 1/3 of the council that has sided with the Sentinels?

What you have to see is that if some rogue group of clanners considers themselves "free" to attack Omni-Tek, neutrals, or even other clans, they surely must expect to face the consequences of their actions for good or ill. Somehow clan-on-clan violence is considered an unforgivable crime, so we rarely see it happening.

On the other hand, if the defending party is not affiliated with the clans, and the defending party chooses to retaliate against their attackers, suddenly the rogue clan falls back into the fold, declaring that retaliation against them (or even an attempt to recover stolen property) is an attack on all clans.

[joshuacrime]

I think we need to be able to diferentiate between an "agent or member" or "supporter by vote". One is an active participant in the activities of the Sentinels, the other a vocal supporter who shows a certain solidarity with the views of the Sentinels. What percentage of these "supporters" do you think would side with Silverstone when he starts the wholesale slaughter of every Neutral factioned person he meets? Probably not very many. Certainly some Neutrals are thoroughly sided with OT, as I'm privy to some "neutral organization" actually being staffed by OT personnel as an off-the-books provacateur. Pretty amusing to think they can get away with it, really. But they do try. So, maybe if Simon went after those Neutrals in disguise, then I won't mind hopping into the fray against them, as Simon makes a convenient lightning rod. But if he went further than that, all bets are off.

No, you will find that the supporters of the Sentinels, as undermanned as they are with respect to the rest of Clan, would move away from being "aligned" with the Sentinels if they attempted anything that resembled wholesale murder. Hell, I'd probably go against the Sentinels if that every happened. Maybe.

It would depend on the responses from everyone else that was against Clan or the Sentinels at the time. If OT ran in there and started to retaliate against Clan in an inappropriate manner, I'd probably turn against OT first, and then turn my attention to the Sentinels second. Neither of them are particularly useful to me.

[Daimoness]

How interesting. From an article originally detailing the strength - or weakness - of the clans it has spun out into yet another fruitless battle of words about the future of Rubi-Ka.

Honestly, I do not expect any OT employee to understand the clans. Even though I would wish for it, I do not see it likely to happen. It begins with a misconception about the power and the function of the Council of Truth. As in the past, you are at the same time attacking it and trying to put it into a leading position within the clans. Obviously, these goals are mutually exclusive. I did not get the point in the past and I miss it even now. But frankly, I stopped caring either.

You void the Tir Accord yet blame us to be fueling the conflict. Another strange misconception. By pulling away the only legal agreement that has been struck between OT and the clans you more or less declared war. You might not see it this way but that is irrelevant. We see it this way. Besides, we do not hope for contracts and agreements to fix anything. We have not won our freedom through words, but through fighting.

The CoT can be a step towards more stability and organizations within the clans. I highly doubt though that the majority of Directors and Advisors of OTRK will welcome such a step. As of now, the CoT does not represent all clans, but already the majority of them. The most powerful organizations are in it, even the Sentinels. If the CoT really manages to unite the clans then Omni-Tek would face a strong opposition both on the battlefield and in the conference rooms.

Unfortunately, Omni-Tek is in a similar state as the clans though. Some people or even departments would welcome a peace, while others are busy pouring fuel into the flames. There are those who gain from the war on all sides.

Indeed, I am supporting Silverstone right now cause for the time being, he is the one with the best chances to defend us against the Omni Incursions - and Omni-Tek is on the advance for several months now if you check the maps. But unlike Simon I do see the option for a peace treaty with Omni-Tek and the option of a co-existence between Omni-Tek and a democratic government on this planet. And for those neutrals who aren't just criminals or war-profiteers there will be a solution as well.

I do not want a war. I have been working for a peace even after the Notum Wars had begun, but to no avail. Greed - on all sides of the conflict - has made this attempt fail. I do not say that we, the clans, have all the ethics on our side. I do not say that we are right in everything we do. But we are fighting with our backs against the wall. We inherited this conflict and have all been raised in a world where being weak and undefended carries the risk of being crushed.

Building a peaceful civilization on the smoking ruins of this planet's history is a task that will take maybe the work of generations. For now, the mutual hatred, the greed and the bloodlust on all sides will crush any effort at peace. Such wounds take a lot of time to heal.

-D