[MP Wishlist] Bow perks/buffs

[Chanell]

The bow perk line and/or buff line could add Physic init as a secondary or tertiary stat, couldn't it?
A lot of people (including me) have issues with bows just not being viable at full def, which could probably be solved by that.

I am not sure if that might be overpowered and/or out of context tho, feedback appreciated.

[Wizz]

Mind fetching the MA professional for input, dear Trilic?
Feeling lazy for the moment

Also: would adventurers and agents want/need access? I have seen very odd weapon choices on some people, so I don't care much if fixers and keepers carry bows with them Should stand to reason though.

There's some logic that agents and advies would have access to this kind of line, and IMO a bit more than docs using bows. Then again I'm not a doc, so what do I know

The choice of professions that get access or not to a perk line tilts the balance in favor of a line of nanos too IMO.

Hmm I'm not in favor of buffing phys init through that. there's Physical Dominance and other buffs that do it quite well.

To force-feed a bit of roleplaying the MP would be the one that tries to focus enough to become the bow, feels the target with his eyes closed, touches the arrow with his mind and shoots when he has reached the perfect state of concentration.

On the other side of things the MA would shoot first, then ask questions.

Phys Init makes then sense only for the MAs, and even if it always can be improved, I don't think they're too bad at that already.
IMO the slowness of bows works as intended. Maybe an item to get a temporary boost like a Flurry of Blows?

The focalisation of the MP, his utter concentration on the one (or two hehe) shot he'll make talks in favor of AS too. This is not crucial though, and AS certainly is an IP sink.
Now consider the only improvement you can put on Sacrosanct/Inamorata bows are with grey glyphs of shere to add AS precisely.
Even if they're not as good, same goes with the Bow of Belith and Bow of Premonition.

[Lorahxi]

Revised
Bow Mastery Perk Line:
Bow Mastery 1:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Or (Self Profession == Meta-Physicist)
Or (Self Profession == Agent)
Or (Self Profession == Adventurer)
Or (Self Profession == Doctor)
Self Level >= 10
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 10
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 2

Bow Mastery 2:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Or (Self Profession == Meta-Physicist)
Or (Self Profession == Agent)
Or (Self Profession == Adventurer)
Or (Self Profession == Doctor)
Self Level >= 30
Self Perk Bow Mastery (L1) trained
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 10
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 2
Perk Special-see info section at the end

Bow Mastery 3:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Or (Self Profession == Meta-Physicist)
Or (Self Profession == Agent)
Or (Self Profession == Adventurer)
Or (Self Profession == Doctor)
Self Level >= 60
Self Perk Bow Mastery (L2) trained
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 12
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 2

Bow Matery 4:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Or (Self Profession == Meta-Physicist)
Or (Self Profession == Agent)
Or (Self Profession == Adventurer)
Or (Self Profession == Doctor)
Self Level >= 90
Self Perk Bow Mastery (L3) trained
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 13
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 3

Bow Mastery 5:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Or (Self Profession == Meta-Physicist)
Or (Self Profession == Agent)
Or (Self Profession == Adventurer)
Or (Self Profession == Doctor)
Self Level >= 120
Self Perk Bow Mastery (L4) trained
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 14
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 3
Perk Special-see info section at the end

Bow Mastery 6:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Or (Self Profession == Meta-Physicist)
Or (Self Profession == Agent)
Or (Self Profession == Adventurer)
Or (Self Profession == Doctor)
Self Level >= 150
Self Perk Bow Mastery (L5) trained
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 16
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 3

Bow Mastery 7:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Or (Self Profession == Meta-Physicist)
Self Level >= 180
Self Perk Bow Mastery (L6) trained
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 18
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 4

Bow Mastery 8:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Or (Self Profession == Meta-Physicist)
Self Level >= 201
Self Perk Bow Mastery (L7) trained
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 22
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 4

Bow Mastery 9:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Self Level >= 203
Self Perk Bow Mastery (L8) trained
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 30
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 4
Perk special-see info section at the end

Bow Mastery 10:
Requirements:
ToWear: Self Profession == Martial Artist
Self Level >= 205
Self Perk Bow Mastery (L9) trained
Effects:
OnWear: Modify Wearer Bow 55
Modify Wearer BowSpecialAtt 5

Perk specials, must have a bow equipped to do these specials:
(L2) Phys Init, add all off, add all def buff that scales up with the perk line; dur: 30 sec, lock: 120 sec
(L5) small direct damage nuke
(L9) huge direct damage nuke, available only to MAs

As you can see, MPs can train this perk to 8 (partial perk line), and MAs can train to 10. This would give an added 115 bow/23 bow special for MPs and 200 bow/32 bow special for MAs. I put bow special in there because if the special arrows get a rework some day, we will have it in the perk line already. I used the pistol mastery perk layout for the level and the amount added to bow, but left out the add damage effect. The first perk special in the line adds a temporary phys init, add all off, and add all def buff that scales with the perk line that I think would be beneficial, but it may be considered overpowering. The other perk specials mirror the pistol perk line, double shot at L5 and Deadeye at L9.

Edit: I revised my original template adding agent, adv, and doc to level 6. I also took out aimed shot and added a little more to bow special.

[Upupa]

Excellent work Lorahxi.

As it had been mentioned in this thread before; aimed shot may be in or out this perk-line. Why not a aim shot special insted like:

(L5) "Aimed arrow" Work exactly like aimed shot but the skill that count damage is the bow skill. recharge 30 sec.

[Sallust]

I would say Aimed shot is probably too much. There are good buffs for aimed shot, and neither MPs nor MAs (who already have good special attacks) should be so incredible at aimed shot.

What is the total bonus of skills? Most all perks don't exceed 200 skill for all cumulative levels of the perk.

I also think a lot more bonus should be given to bow spc atk. It would take a lot more to make that skill very useful anyways.

I migth also actually take a couple points of the maximum for MPs. MPs aren't exactly supposed to be weapon masters.

Agents should definately be added in to at least the level of MPs. Adventurers are also debatable to max.

The specials and design on your perk looks excellent. I'm eager to see the final proposal.

P.S. - Thanks Trillic for putting my earlier posts in the correct threads.

[Lorahxi]

I read the whole thread again and I think I need to make a few changes to my original template.
First of all, I am taking Aimed Shot out. A perk line for primarily MAs and MPs shouldn't get a perk line with AS in it because that is not something we are supposed to be strong in. I do however think I will increase the Bow Special Attack per perk level, but not by much. I think this is pretty much a majority idea here.
Second, I am going to add Agent, Doctor, and Adventurer to the perk line. Agent because they sometimes use crossbows, and the extra bow skill would help with that. Docs and Adv because they have bow in Support Symbiants. I am not sure how far into the perk line they should be able to go, who has an idea on this? I am not experienced with these professions, so I can't really say for sure. It would seem to me that Agents, Docs, and Advs would be completely secondary to MP and MA in this perk line.
I want to leave the amount we get for bow from the perk line the same for now. My main focus for this perk line isn't necessarily for more AR, but to use the perk line to equip turnspirit bows in the end.
Thanks everyone for the feedback, I am still open to ideas to change this into something we want as a profession.

[Lorahxi]

Originally posted by Upupa
As it had been mentioned in this thread before; aimed shot may be in or out this perk-line. Why not a aim shot special insted like:

(L5) "Aimed arrow" Work exactly like aimed shot but the skill that count damage is the bow skill. recharge 30 sec.

This perk special sounds a lot like a direct damage perk special. If that is the case, that is what I already have at L5. The Double Shot perk special in the Pistol Mastery perk line does 475-881 projectile AC nuke damage. If I were to mirror that, I would put the same nuke in the bow perk line, just call it by a different name. Is this what you meant, or did I miss your point completely?

[Chanell]

Speaking as a Doc player here.
Bow skill is, in fact, one of our "better" weapon skills even tho it's still dark blue (like almost all of 'em).
I wouldn't let a doc go far in the bow line simply because, even tho they're obviously intended to use pistols, even pistol mastery caps at 5 for them.
(Power Up goes to 8 for some reason, but none of us know what to do with it...)
Maybe 5 or 6.

[Trilic]

Bumping this, working on what the wishlist entry will look like.

[_____________wassabi]

I think your bow perk seems pretty reasonable but.. I would suggest 2 things..

1) a slightly bigger boost in AS. The fact is given our skill caps I doubt AS will ever matter for us since I doubt we will bother investing pounts into conceal. however, MA's very well may want it.

2) I would LOVE to see a perk special that is in essense BURST. The complete lack of specials ( other then AS) really hurts bow uses and in pvp makes for a LARGE annoyance. ( you will only hit in pvp against some toons using specials that can not miss.)

[Lorahxi]

Originally posted by wassabi
I think your bow perk seems pretty reasonable but.. I would suggest 2 things..

1) a slightly bigger boost in AS. The fact is given our skill caps I doubt AS will ever matter for us since I doubt we will bother investing pounts into conceal. however, MA's very well may want it.

2) I would LOVE to see a perk special that is in essense BURST. The complete lack of specials ( other then AS) really hurts bow uses and in pvp makes for a LARGE annoyance. ( you will only hit in pvp against some toons using specials that can not miss.)

1. I took AS out of the perk line template, I explained above why I did so. It was a majority idea, also.
2. Frankly, if you want burst, then you will have to equip a weapon with burst. The closest I can see to being reasonable in a perk line for primarily MA and MP is the direct damage nukes with a recharge of 50 seconds (pistol mastery perk special copy). If you make the nukes too big, it will be too overpowering. If you shorten the recharge of the perk special, it will be too overpowering. I just don't see anything bigger than that happening with a perk line for us.

[Lorahxi]

I revised my perk template with all the additions. Anyone have anything else that they think needs to be added or removed?

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot to post about the buff line.
It makes sense to me that we would probably get either a perk line or a buff line, and not both. This is just speculation, but if we were to get a buff, we would probably get one that adds 60 to bow and probably something like 20 to bow special. Also, any bow buffs that come out would probably go to MAs. To me, it seems like we should be pushing more for a perk line than a buff line, but of course either will work as long as we get something.

[Wizz]

Originally posted by Lorahxi
I revised my perk template with all the additions. Anyone have anything else that they think needs to be added or removed?

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot to post about the buff line.
It makes sense to me that we would probably get either a perk line or a buff line, and not both. This is just speculation, but if we were to get a buff, we would probably get one that adds 60 to bow and probably something like 20 to bow special. Also, any bow buffs that come out would probably go to MAs. To me, it seems like we should be pushing more for a perk line than a buff line, but of course either will work as long as we get something.

Correct. I think the perk line is pretty much OK as it stands.
I'm more in favor of a buff line cast by MAs than a line of perks. Perks are a permanent buff, and we're basically not a weapon using class.
We already get to use 1HB and pistol perk lines, and it's a lot already.

Those that should have permanenet access to good buffs for the bow are the weapon class that can use them: MAs.

The good thing is at least we all agree to have them as our bow buffing machines without even asking their advice
I'll gladly CI any MA that casts Marksmanship Mastery (+90 bow, +30 Bow spec ) on me though.

My two cred cents.

[Hamini]

If MAs were granted the option of using 10 perk points to get +200 i seriously doubt many would take it. The reason for this is that, unlike MPs, the only reason the majority of MAs pull out a bow is for aimed shot in pvp. Unfortunately, all of the bows introduced with shadowlands have fairly high attack/recharge cycles(2.5+/2.5+ in most cases) and low crits. Not only would this be against the nature of MAs(good crits, full def fast weapon) but it also means that the aimed shot(if the bow even has it) is extremely slow, and less powerful than a pre-sl bow. Since the pre-sl bows require less than 1000 bow skill, the need for +200 to self equip a bow is pretty low. In addition to this, a 220 MA already has to make some very tough decisions about his perks, adding a 10 point line would only complicate things further.

Personally i would much rather see a bow buff castable on others for one of the bow professions.

Good luck with this idea though MPs, i've done the calcs on the high ql bows and i know you are in a tight spot when it comes to getting them on.

Perhaps funcom could do something theyve never done before: add a nano that's castable by more than one profession(not including FP)

ps: sorry to troll the MP forums, but wizz did asked me too!

[Chronita]

Well guess i'll comment a bit here

Perk line looks good so far, and +200 at the end total is probably about right. IMO the bow spec atk could be increased as well, since you are going to need a good amount of that skill for any of the decent special arrows available today, not to say anything of what may come in the future with AI or whatnot.

As for the buff line, I concur with having most the line "other" and the top buff self only for MAs.

I guess the max skill mark that all these additions should be created towards is 1701 for MPs and 2251 for MAs to equip the "best" bows. Right now on testlive with a 220 char wearing the Mystical hood, ql300 chosen gloves, and triple symbiants i have around 1767 bow skill (i have a ton of other stuff adding ability mods in my "normal" setup on test as well, so this is pretty much pushing the skill to the max). So for me the skill needed yet would look like:

1767 Base
+30 Beast Chest
+25 Grasping Ring (has anyone seen this on live?)
+147 Best Umbral Wrangle
+200 Bow Perk line max
-------------
2169 total

So that leaves at least 82 skill to be gained from the nano line, which should probably top out at 120-130 anyway. So far so good. (Can an MP post how much skill they are lacking for the 1701 bow atm?)

If you just look at it from the equipping standpoint then things are about right. Now, the real question is if any MA is willing to spend 10 points in this perk line just to equip the top bow which is fair in quality at best, not to mention that they will be doing a ton more dmg staying with their fists and equipping lesser bows during roots or for an AS alpha. IMO the answer would more than likely be "no," and the only way MAs would imbrace this perk line would be to add much better bows in the future, or perhaps add some insane +dmg mods to the last few perk steps that are MA-only. Until then, i would guess that such a perk line would be used almost exclusively by MPs and the few bow docs.

[Madene]

I think it would be better if they just gave someone a bow buff. Imho this perk line is useless for us MAs.

1: We are a closecombat profession.
2: We dont have any spare perk points.
3: We only use it because of the AS.

and so on :s

[Cboath]

The Grasping Ring drops in Crypt of Home and it seems bugged at this time. The Ring has the flag "ItemSocialArmour" and i can not see that as intended.

[Trilic]

Originally posted by Cboath
The Grasping Ring drops in Crypt of Home and it seems bugged at this time. The Ring has the flag "ItemSocialArmour" and i can not see that as intended.

Yes this is known about and has been reported.

[Trilic]

Added to the Wishlist, if anything needs to be changed or updated please post here and let me know.

[DMacLaurin]

ok, read the whole post late at night, but felt like adding my 2 cents:

a dedicated bow ma (read: only using bow) would have no need for the Spiritual Master perkline, thus freeing 10 perk points to train the bow perk line.

Problem is how to achieve getting MA to choose between bow and the now superior fists???
Think the "simplest" solution would be to add MA-only bows that can compete with fists, even keeping AS on them, since it is buffable/ boostable w/ items.
Maybe make a copy of the factionbow for MAs?

And, of course, rework the special arrows, which I deem interesting , to compete with the current MA-Special Attacks.

Having read the whole thread, if your proposal would make it live, I would definatly consider rolling a bow-MA, though I love my 1HB/fist ma very, very much.

To sum it up: the perkline looks great and a bow-buff line similar to the MA-buff line would be "all" needed to make bows a viable option.
Provided the better bows are introduced