Upcomming nerf?

[Inari]

Originally posted by Gaijin


so are you saying..... it's time for us to stop doing 10 second bursts and FA's on the spastics?

In short YES.

the long answer is that I dont like being too good with no real weaknesses and here is some reasoning.

While it might be a slight nerf I will still consider soldiers among the better damagedealers if we loose the skill lock modifier.
I have been going along with aoparser in various skteams for a couple of million sk the last 2 days and while I like being the primary tank with ability to control and hold 4 mobs , outdamaging anything except MAs and shades by 25% or more and at the same time being a tank with decent addcontrol it is not balance by a long shot.
The tendency to also be last man standing is just another part of this.

Our role lategame from my point of view is threefold , one is providing the best reflect in the game for teams , the second is tanking the tough stuff , alternativly holding a tough unmezzable mob occupied while the squishy stuff goes down.
The third part is being an effective damagedealer and with that I mean being able to match the other "average" ones like agents , NTs , MPs, Engies , Advies , Fixers.

PvM we are talking a 20% damagedecrease which would put a soldier with a 250+ spastic/coop just below engies and MPs instead of above them which is where we are atm.

There are other ways of adressing this ofcourse but generally only soldiers and players that has gone JAME/MBC will be hurt by it. A soldier with MBC as one example will have a higher damageoutput compared to a MBC doc than he used to have if they change this.

[orbakay]

I aint to suprised, soldiers will still have fast enough recykling specials to not get hurt to much.. i just feel more sorry for those who play weaker professions that still try to optimize their chars to an great extent.. where -skill lock modifiers help them alot, not just pvm but in pvp.

Funcom has a funny way of changing working things to less working things.

[Krebul]

Hey, remember when skill lock with damage specials were broken? The timers would be all screwed up if you had skill lock items in. A few patches later, it was improved but still broken. Later it was fixed completely. So...all this work FC put into fixing skill lock, but they didn't notice that it was affecting damage recharges? It is just now that it occured to them that its bugged?

I bet you 100 million credits that the real reason skill lock is suddenly "not supposed to affect damage" is because of MBC docs getting those insane fling and burst recharges. All damage seems to be realistic except that. Now soldiers stand to take a nerf for that.

But its not doctor's fault. Its FC's fault. They put things in the game, and people spend months trying to optimize their character based on the rules of the game, and once a player reaches his optimal setup, FC goes and changes the rules because we are too uber.

When a new patch is released, we read the patch notes, and we notice any change that could possibly improve our character. We also go into the DB and research items that help us. We do all these things to get a full view of the game and how it works. We do this to achieve the optimal setup for our characters. Once we have established a plan, we spend months trying to reach that goal. Should we not try to go for the best possible setup, for fear of being nerfed and having to change setups? This sucks big time. Personally, I dont care if docs have too much damage. It is too late to make this blanket nerf.

[binaural]

zero is right though, we are the least squishy class in game, or second to enfs depending how you look at it.

we have taunts something which most proffs don't have. we aren't supposed to be #1 DD, tho we definatly aren't.. only those select few crazy uber ppl are OD'ing high lvl ma's and shades.

this wont hit us that hard. spastic will still have hella fast FA recharge. it will be prolly a little nerf to the Perrenium. which now with the right setup is stronger then spastic.

oh and look to see headband of haste prices poof.

[Predicament]

Originally posted by Inarion
I have been going along with aoparser in various skteams for a couple of million sk the last 2 days and while I like being the primary tank with ability to control and hold 4 mobs , outdamaging anything except MAs and shades by 25% or more and at the same time being a tank with decent addcontrol it is not balance by a long shot.
The tendency to also be last man standing is just another part of this.

I think you are exaggerating quite a bit Inarion.. and I think more and more people on this board are.. People whine, panic and exaggerate without any limits these days..

Yes you can, IF adds come one by one, stumbling cross your teams path, lining up nicely infront of you, pick them off with taunts, and keep them fairly controlled. But no way you can clear up if your team gets trained by a bunch of very angry hardhitting mobs that whipes the doc in 1 hit.

You come out sounding so emencly cocky, if you where such a great tank, you would be the first person in your team to ever die, not be the last man standing.. The support personel of a team should never die if there was a decent tank ahead, at least one that can easily handle 4 tough mobs.

[akgishf]

Originally posted by Nothinman
this wont hit us that hard. spastic will still have hella fast FA recharge. it will be prolly a little nerf to the Perrenium. which now with the right setup is stronger then spastic.

I really feel like it and I did alot of work to get that setup well lets wait to see...

[Krebul]

Originally posted by Predicament


You come out sounding so emencly cocky, if you where such a great tank, you would be the first person in your team to ever die, not be the last man standing.. The support personel of a team should never die if there was a decent tank ahead, at least one that can easily handle 4 tough mobs.

Well, a lot of new soldiers will swear on their lives that soldiers are nothing more than damage dealers. Take a look further up this thread...I'm sure you'll find some. It almost makes my head pop off every time I see a soldier who doesn't know the ins and outs of the profession. A little exaggeration might be called for just to get the point across that we are more than mere damage dealers.

Taunts can sometimes be just as important as any of our other nanos. So many are unaware of that. Next time you are teamed with a 205 soldier, ask him why he doesn't have any taunt nanos. When he tells you they dont work, try not to exagerate their effectiveness.

[Nargo]

I bet you 100 million credits that the real reason skill lock is suddenly "not supposed to affect damage" is because of MBC docs getting those insane fling and burst recharges. All damage seems to be realistic except that. Now soldiers stand to take a nerf for that.

Ya and 10sec FA have nothing todo about it

[Predicament]

Our taunts are awsome. Our tanking abillities are very good, to an extent. I just think that every time Im the last man standing.. I failed as a tank.

I failed to keep the aggro from the adds. Doesnt matter if I live or not. I should be the first to die. At least that is my opinion If you do not agree, you are entitled to that

[ZoD]

Originally posted by Nargo


Ya and 10sec FA have nothing todo about it

what about a DOC with a 6s burst?

[Predicament]

Originally posted by Nargo


Ya and 10sec FA have nothing todo about it

I think we would have 10 sec FA's and the Agents will have 10 sec AS's, no matter skillock mods (with spastic's), if not its not far from it at least.

[Inari]

Originally posted by Predicament
You come out sounding so emencly cocky, if you where such a great tank, you would be the first person in your team to ever die, not be the last man standing.. The support personel of a team should never die if there was a decent tank ahead, at least one that can easily handle 4 tough mobs.

When did I say easy?

I said we could overcome heal aggro from up to 4 mobs, 1 we tank with damage and up to 3 adds when we have access to Distinct Victim or better. If we are in an ideal situation and can do unmistakable a single taunt is more than enough to hold a heckler away from the doc for a minute unless people starts hurting it.

Ideally we wont have to do that(Crowdcontroller in team) since its rather painfull and unless the mobs are relativly weak we will still have at least 3 on us when AMS drops.. if we take a pande glyphfarming team as an example the soldier will drop fast with the healers following fast. I've seen 2 soldiers handeling the unmezzable adds here by effective use of taunts/detaunts and damage which is something only we can do.

I might sound cocky but then I have become spoiled since the days I couldnt get aggro for the life of me, my soloability were severly limited and my 3 jobs in teams was RRFE , OS and Q+Bursts from my Div9.

[Cz]

Interesting theories about Funcom you have. Now please take them elsewhere, as Funcom is not a topic on this bulletin board, and some of the accusations here border on trolling.

On the actual topic...

I'll be the first to admin we screwed up on the modifier and special attacks. Any bug is a screw-up. This screw-up is that the modifier didn't exclude the special attacks skills, and thus it made the entire weapon damage balance tilt. That the modifier would have (too) great effect on specials was clear to us the moment we discovered the error in the system.

The effect of the skill lock modifier on specials and how that skews the damage balance has been discussed for a long time in Funcom. It's not something we suddenly discovered recently. However, we only recently agreed that something had to be done ASAP (not "later"), and how it should be done. And yes, this agreement was pushed through much due to the insane recharge time non-weapon professions got.

Fast recharging of specials should come from skills, not from a general modifier. Those using burst, full auto, fast attack, etc at best speed should be those skilled in the attacks, not those who happen to have the best general "do stuff fast" modifier. As an example, Soldiers should do fast Full Auto attacks, while Doctors should not. At least that's my take on it.

My apologies for not going out with info about this earlier, but plans and schedules change, and I won't kick up a fuss on the forums about something that might happen in some way at some undefined time in the future. Now it's a reality, and I'll be happy to answer your questions about the change.

[Krebul]

Originally posted by Nargo


Ya and 10sec FA have nothing todo about it

When we are able to chain cast heals for 5 - 8K without ever running out of nano, or CH when the going gets rough, or even CH the whole team if it tickles our fancy, I think our fast specials might come into question.

[Nargo]

Originally posted by ZoD


what about a DOC with a 6s burst?

Never said that

Yes agree on the nerf of skilllock and for MBC being 6sec I have still to time it at 6sec using /played

*note to Cz* Its the burst when it get to docs

lets not get to off topic Krebul, can allways start a new thread on that topic

[Dystopic]

This is my reply on that thread:

Originally posted by Cz

That's probably a very accurate impression, sorry to say. The SkillLockModifier wasn't supposed to affect damage values, but healing (First Aid and Treatment) and the use of gadgets (Grafts, etc). The way it currently works skews the damage balance completely, with specials recycling faster than intended.

And don't trust the "Action not possible. Action available in x seconds" message from special attacks when you have a SkillLockModifier. Seems those numbers are way off. Strangely enough, the timer message works correctly for e.g. First Aid Kits.

Cz, your first statement cannot be an accurate view of the developers. Skill Lock has been in game for many many months and people have been loading up on skill lock clusters to reduce weapon specials way before SL. I am certain the developers DID intend for skill lock to affect weapon specials. Hundreds of threads have discussed this. The fact that Artillery Chest/Thigh are con****uously missing Skill Lock mods shows developers were aware of this.

What I think we need to know Cz is what is prompting this? Is it weapon damage in general or is it certain weapons? I suspect it is the later and points the finger at MBCs and Perennium weapons. Because I think the mechanic is fine, but some weapons are not and we should fix the weapons, not the mechanic.

No one today is crying about an Ithaca with 2s Fling and 6s Aimed Shot. A 6s Aimed Shot off a Caterwaul/Perennium Rifle might cause some concern but you wanted Agents to be the top damage dealers anyway (for Agents to be at 6s AS, they become way way easier to kill which balances it). But it's the 2s Fling and 4s Burst on MBC users wielded by non-Soldier that is causing a riot.

Leave skill lock alone, many many players have invested so much in making their characters unique. High skill lock is not without a balancing cost for Agents/Soldiers using gimpy AC Control Unit Crepuscule Armor.

Changing the weapons should be the better solution. Tweak the MBC and Perennium Beamer recharge at 3.0 sec and the Perennium Sniper and Blaster at 2.0 recharge or something along those lines. I think this way is much easier to implement and fairer for those who have made significant investments in Skill Lock.

[Cz]

Moving my reply here then, Hellfire.

Originally posted by Hellfire
What I think we need to know Cz is what is prompting this? Is it weapon damage in general or is it certain weapons? I suspect it is the later and points the finger at MBCs and Perennium weapons. Because I think the mechanic is fine, but some weapons are not and we should fix the weapons, not the mechanic.

It's not specific weapons, but the whole system. It's a fact that weapons were never designed with the SkillLockModifier in mind. The modifier was just not considered part of the damage balance picture.

Originally posted by Nargo
*note to Cz* Its the burst when it get to docs

It was just an example. I wasn't thinking of specific weapons, but the system in general.

{Edit: system, not sstem }

[Cz]

Originally posted by Hellfire
Cz, your first statement cannot be an accurate view of the developers. Skill Lock has been in game for many many months and people have been loading up on skill lock clusters to reduce weapon specials way before SL. I am certain the developers DID intend for skill lock to affect weapon specials.

Actually, I can't and won't say you're not correct, as the error happened somewhere and I'm sure it's an equal chance of this being a designer not fully seeing the impact this had on specials as a programmer making a mistake, or a matter of miscommunication. I won't start a witch hunt to point out the guilty party, as that's neither my job nor the important part of this matter.

The important part is that this was not - among those involved in weapon design and damage balance - meant to be such a factor on damage output.

[Dystopic]

Originally posted by Cz
It's not specific weapons, but the whole system. It's a fact that weapons were never designed with the SkillLockModifier in mind. The modifier was just not considered part of the damage balance picture.

Cz, thanks for the replies. I'm glad you're keeping close track on this change.

You know players like me enjoy the ability to customize themselves within a game system. Skill Lock was one of THE MOST challenging aspects to figure out. It allowed characters who make the appropriate sacrifices to stand out and be damage dealers. (Skill Lock junkies like me are much more squishy). All these discussion threads certainly made Skill Lock one heckuva fun game mechanic to consider.

I understand your motivation but I would ask you and the developers to reconsider changing it again as I'd hate to see AO lose a pretty unique game mechanic. A good portion of the playerbase loves Skill Lock.

Wouldn't nerfing some weapons bring the balance back just as well if not better? I'd be happy to accept that, probably many others too. How do you other players feel about it?

Basically my point is a Skill Lock discussion cannot be made without the context of certain weapons. So you can adjust Skill Lock or adjust weaponry and achieve the same result as your original design intentions.

[Regression]

While this change doesn't make me the happiest camper
in the group, I am glad that we have been told about it
before the patch is released that changes things.

I've noticed a slight shift in the way info is released lately
(NT improvement mentioned on NT forums), and I think
it's a very good an important thing.

And thanks for answering the questions


To Hellfire: I agree that it's a good thing that some had the option
to choose the damage route and somewhat gimp themselves, but
going along with what Inarion mentioned. Soldiers do too much
damage considering their other strengths. I think FC is starting
to look more at the balance between professions now. A good
examples is NTs. NTs are one of the squishiest classes, but they
currently IMO do not have the damage or other strengths to
make up for this weakness.