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Thread: Burst Recycle and Skill Lock Reduction – How it works

  1. #1

    Burst Recycle and Skill Lock Reduction – How it works

    In an effort to figure out exactly how Burst recycle times are affected by Skill Lock reduction items, I have conducted a series of tests with various amounts of skill lock reduction items in use. Burst recycle times were both measured by a stop watch out of game and by looking at the reported in game recycle time. I used the following equipment in the test:

    Weapons:
    QL 200 Manex Catastrophe December
    QL 260 Conf Syndicate Messenger Gun
    QL 200 Mausser Chemical Streamer
    QL 256 Defender of Troy
    QL 247 Jake
    QL 200 OT Kerans
    QL 229 Inspirator

    Skill lock reduction gear:
    QL 240 Support leg symbiant (-11 skill lock value)
    QL 220 Support left hand symbiant (-6 skill lock value)
    Headband of Haste (-5 skill lock value)

    My Stats are:
    Burst skill: 1333
    Attack rating: 1890ish (not that it should matter for this test)
    Ranged init: 850ish (not that it should matter for this test)

    The official say on how Skill Lock works are found in the Shadowland Patch notes (of 4th sep 2003):

    “You might find items that buff a stat called "Skill Lock Modifier". This is not a new stat - we just haven't used it much before. This stat reduces the time your skill is locked by 1 percent per point. On e.g. a First Aid Kit - Skill Lock Modifier 15 would decrease the First Aid lock time from 20 seconds to 17 seconds. A lock can never be reduced by more than 50% of the original time.”

    In addition to Skill Lock reduction items, your burst skill value affects how fast the burst skill of a weapon recycles. The basic formula for how much burst skill affects recycle time is very easy: 25 points of burst = 1 second faster burst recycle. Having a high burst skill can however only reduce the burst recycle value of a weapon to a certain figure: having more burst skill will not reduce the burst recycle time of such weapon beyond this cap. Bust recycle cap values varies somewhat from weapon to weapon, but for most SMG’s it seems to be between 8 and 11 seconds.


    Test results:

    QL200 Manex Catastrophe December
    Base burst recycle time (no gear, zero burst skill): 100 seconds
    Burst recycle cap without Skill Lock reduction items: unknown (not reached for me)

    0 skill lock (no gear):
    Measured: 50,7 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 50 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)

    -6 skill lock (hand):
    Measured: 48,1 sec (reduction 2,6 sec, 5,1% of my burst recycle, 2,6% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 44 sec (reduction 6 sec, 11,8% of my burst recycle, 6% of base burst recycle)

    -11 skill lock (hand, headband):
    Measured: 45,7 sec (reduction 5 sec, 9,9% of my burst recycle, 5,0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 39 sec (reduction 11 sec, 21,7% of my burst recycle, 11,0% of base burst recycle)

    -11 skill lock (leg):
    Measured: 45,6 sec (reduction 5,1 sec, 10,1% of my burst recycle, 5,1% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 39 sec (reduction 11 sec, 21,7% of my burst recycle, 11,0% of base burst recycle)

    -17 skill lock (leg, hand):
    Measured: 41,6 sec (reduction 9,1 sec, 17,9% of my burst recycle, 9,1% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 34 sec (reduction 16 sec, 31,6% of my burst recycle, 16,0% of base burst recycle)

    -22 skill lock (leg, hand, headband):
    Measured: 39,6 sec (reduction 11,1 sec, 21,9% of my burst recycle, 11,1% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 30 sec (reduction 20 sec, 39,4% of my burst recycle, 20,0% of base burst recycle)


    QL260 Syndicate Messenger Gun
    Base burst recycle time (no gear, zero burst skill): 35 seconds
    Burst recycle cap without Skill Lock reduction items: 9 sec (reached for me)

    0 skill lock (no gear):
    Measured: 9,2 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 9 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)

    -6 skill lock (hand):
    Measured: 8 sec (reduction 1,2 sec, 13,0% of my burst recycle, 3,4% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 7 sec (reduction 2 sec, 21,7% of my burst recycle, 5,7% of base burst recycle)

    -11 skill lock (leg):
    Measured: 7,9 sec (reduction 1,3 sec, 14,1% of my burst recycle, 3,7% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 7 sec (reduction 2 sec, 21,7% of my burst recycle, 5,7% of base burst recycle)

    -17 skill lock (leg, hand):
    Measured: 6,9 sec (reduction 2,3 sec, 25% of my burst recycle, 6,6% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 5 sec (reduction 4 sec, 43,5% of my burst recycle, 11,4% of base burst recycle)

    -22 skill lock (leg, hand, headband):
    Measured: 6,5 sec (reduction 2,7 sec, 29,3% of my burst recycle, 7,7% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 5 sec (reduction 4 sec, 43,5% of my burst recycle, 11,4% of base burst recycle)


    QL200 Mausser Chemical Streamer
    Base burst recycle time (no gear, zero burst skill): 40 seconds
    Burst recycle cap without Skill Lock reduction items: 11 sec (reached for me)

    0 skill lock (no gear):
    Measured: 11 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 11 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)

    -6 skill lock (hand):
    Measured: 9,9 sec (reduction 1,1 sec, 10,0% of my burst recycle, 2,8% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 7 sec (reduction 2 sec, 18,2% of my burst recycle, 5,0% of base burst recycle)

    -17 skill lock (leg, hand):
    Measured: 8,6 sec (reduction 2,4 sec, 21,8% of my burst recycle, 6,0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 5 sec (reduction 4 sec, 36,4% of my burst recycle, 10,0% of base burst recycle)


    QL256 Defender of Troy
    Base burst recycle time (no gear, zero burst skill): 80 seconds
    Burst recycle cap without Skill Lock reduction items: Unknown (not reached for me)

    0 skill lock (no gear):
    Measured: 28,7 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 28 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)

    -6 skill lock (hand):
    Measured: 26,3 sec (reduction 2,4 sec, 8,4% of my burst recycle, 3,0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 24 sec (reduction 4 sec, 13,9% of my burst recycle, 5,0% of base burst recycle)

    -17 skill lock (leg, hand):
    Measured: 22,7 sec (reduction 6 sec, 20,9% of my burst recycle, 7,5% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 19 sec (reduction 9 sec, 31,4% of my burst recycle, 11,3% of base burst recycle)


    QL247 Jake
    Base burst recycle time (no gear, zero burst skill): 116 seconds
    Burst recycle cap without Skill Lock reduction items: Unknown (not reached for me)

    0 skill lock (no gear):
    Measured: 67 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 66 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)

    -6 skill lock (hand):
    Measured: 64,4 sec (reduction 2,6 sec, 3,9% of my burst recycle, 2,2% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 58 sec (reduction 8 sec, 11,9% of my burst recycle, 6,9% of base burst recycle)

    -17 skill lock (leg, hand):
    Measured: 55,3 sec (reduction 11,7 sec, 17,5% of my burst recycle, 10,1% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 44 sec (reduction 22 sec, 32,8% of my burst recycle, 19,0% of base burst recycle)


    QL200 OT Kerans
    Base burst recycle time (no gear, zero burst skill): 44 seconds
    Burst recycle cap without Skill Lock reduction items: 9 sec (reached for me)

    0 skill lock (no gear):
    Measured: 9,1 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 9 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)

    -6 skill lock (hand):
    Measured: 8 sec (reduction 1,1 sec, 12,1% of my burst recycle, 2,5% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 7 sec (reduction 2 sec, 22,0% of my burst recycle, 4,5% of base burst recycle)

    -17 skill lock (leg, hand):
    Measured: 6,9 sec (reduction 2,2 sec, 24,2% of my burst recycle, 5,0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 5 sec (reduction 4 sec, 44,0% of my burst recycle, 9,1% of base burst recycle)


    QL229 Inspirator
    Base burst recycle time (no gear, zero burst skill): 42 seconds
    Burst recycle cap without Skill Lock reduction items: 9 sec (reached for me)

    0 skill lock (no gear):
    Measured: 9,1 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 9 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)

    -6 skill lock (hand):
    Measured: 7,9 sec (reduction 1,2 sec, 13,2% of my burst recycle, 2,9% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 7 sec (reduction 2 sec, 22,0% of my burst recycle, 4,8% of base burst recycle)

    -17 skill lock (leg, hand):
    Measured: 6,7 sec (reduction 2,4 sec, 26,4% of my burst recycle, 5,7% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 5 sec (reduction 4 sec, 44,0% of my burst recycle, 9,5% of base burst recycle)

    Edit: The Blinded Blackbird and The Perennium Beamer have been tested! Test results are posted further down in the thread as this post is at maximum length :-) No real changes to the analysis and conclusions resulting from the extra tests tho - well apart from the obvious: they are pretty darn good weapons both of them!

    Legend:

    Measured burst recycle is the out of game, stop-watched time it takes from the “You hit for xxx burst damage” appears on screen until the “Burst skill available” message appears. Each gun was stop-watched 3 times, and the average value is presented in the results above. A few times during the test some results were truly oddballs, and those results were discarded (they could be caused by server side lag, or other problems that are not really weapon related).

    Reported burst recycle is the value displayed on screen by hitting burst twice real fast.

    % of my burst recycle is the amount of reduction the skill lock items provide compared to the recycle time I had prior to putting on any skill lock reduction items

    % of base burst recycle is the amount of reduction the skill lock items provide compared to the base unmodified-by-skill recycle value of a weapon


    Analysis - What can we learn from these results?

    Result 1
    Skill lock reduction items breaks the cap on burst recycle speed, and enable you to burst faster than what is possible than by merely having a high burst skill.(ok so most people already knew that, but its sometimes usefull to state the obvious!)

    Result 2
    Stacking of Skill Lock reduction items seem to work flawlessly. More Skill lock is always better than less skill lock, and all items always provide their bonus. -11 Skill Lock reduction provided by one item equals -11 Skill Lock reduction provided by several other items.

    Result 3
    Reported burst recycle times and real burst recycle times are 2 very different values when you have Skill Lock reduction items. As you get more Skill Lock items, the gap between the reported and the real value widen. The test data suggest the following rule of thumb: The real benefit of Skill Lock reduction items is approx half of what the reported benefit is.

    Why this difference exists I can only speculate, but I guess the most likely theory is that the reported recycle value and the combat engine use different formulas for calculating the recycle time. The combat engine calculation is obviously done server side, while the reported recycle time could be calculated client side (or maybe in the chat server?).

    Result 4
    The test data indicates that Skill Lock reduction is (as stated in the patch notes) a percentage reduction applied to the base, unmodified-by-skill, burst recycle value of a weapon. This can most easily be seen in the Manex and Jake test results (the slowest weapons). For these weapons the reported reduction recycle times seem to be either exactly (or very close to) to what one could expect using the formula:
    Base Recycle speed * Skill Lock reduction %

    For weapons that have faster base burst recycle value (including all weapons that have capped burst recycle speeds due to having high burst skill) the Skill Lock reduction items provide less effect. Apparently the Skill Lock reduction effect is approximately halved for all such weapons. So the reported recycle reduction times for “faster” weapons follow this formula:
    Base Recycle speed * Skill Lock reduction % * 0,5


    Conclusion – So how does it work?

    According to the test results you may calculate how much your burst recycle speed will measurably be affected by Skill Lock items thus:

    Base Recycle speed of weapon * Skill Lock reduction % * 0,5

    If you are using a weapon that has a recycle value capped due to your high burst skill (or has reasonably fast base burst recycle value to start out with), you need to use the following formula:

    Base Recycle speed of weapon * Skill Lock reduction % * 0,25


    Currently unknown issues – feedback wanted!

    Is there a firm cap for how low burst recycle speed can go? The Shadowlands patch notes state that max skill lock reduction is 50% of the initial skill value. Under the current combat engine we have seen that the effect of Skill Lock reduction items is halved from what they apparently should have accomplished.. Still: when adding these numbers one can get really low burst recycle values.

    Is there a mathematical way to figure out what the recycle cap (without skill lock reduction items) is for a certain weapon, just by looking in the Database? If there is, it would greatly help in analyzing how well new weapons perform before they can be tested in detail.

    What determines when a weapon only get “half the effect” of Skill Lock times, as pointed out in Result 4 above? Is it at a certain base burst recycle value, or is it perhaps when a certain adjusted burst recycle value is reached?

    If anyone has information that could help with these problems, please post here or feel free to send me a PM. Also please keep in mind that all the above information is based solely on my own test results and by browsing the Database. The conclusions I have drawn may turn out to be utterly wrong, in which case I will happily change the info in this post accordingly. Also knowing FC: it’s not entirely unlikely that combat rules may somehow change in the future, making all this info out of date. So use this information at your own risk!
    Last edited by Zura; May 17th, 2004 at 07:59:01.
    Zura
    Fixer of Rubi-Ka 1
    Me - Stuff

  2. #2
    Really Really Really good post.

    Point for you for fixer of the Year award.
    Jasmine Ziakara but everybody calls me Jasziak
    Unit Member of The Mockers
    Perks - Armor

    Want to be a Mocker? Ask me.
    Want to RP? Let me know.

  3. #3

    Thumbs up

    Great post, and an amazing work!

    Thumbs up for a sticky or be included on a sticky thread.

  4. #4
    Good work, really.

    But i don't see the point of using any other skill lock items for fixers who uses CSMG, since it's capped on 5 seconds (even if you have 4 seconds, it takes a second before message "you have to wait for blablabla" disappear).

    support legs + left hand is enough to reach the cap, so it's better to save fixers some money and useless camping for an item they can't really put in use..
    -------------------------------------
    Ivanius clan fixah
    Server first Lasting Ultimatum
    Current Setup

  5. #5
    Sticky !

    No BBB's ?
    Killer 66% Achiever 46% Socializer 46% Explorer 40%

  6. #6

    Re: Burst Recycle and Skill Lock Reduction – How it works

    I think its pretty clear there is a bug, a discrepancy that creates the 'This action is not available' period.

  7. #7
    Superb analysis Zura, thanks.
    This clears up a whole bunch of questions I had forming in my head about SLM. Time to go out and find a support thigh...
    Katzz 'Riders of the Lost Org' 213 Fixer
    Docckk 'Riders of the Lost Org' 207 Doctor

  8. #8
    Great info. Significant effort.

    Am I correct in interpreting your tests to indicate that you somehow reduced your burst skill to 0 for a baseline on each gun? That would seem implied by the '0 burst skill' entries. Must have required at least one IP reset, if not an IPR for each gun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorathon View Post
    Wouldn't it be better if all the attributes were combined into one skill called "goodness?"

  9. #9
    Great post! Thx for the info
    Was wondering about many of these issues myself, and now I got my answers.

  10. #10
    No, thankfully no IP reset was nessesary :-) Jayde has already calculated what the base burst recycle is for all weapons. Just look up a weapon in AODB, hit simulate weapon damage, and look at the burst recycle time listed (the default setting is zero burst skill). I have checked a few of the values with a lowbie char with next to nothing in burst, and they have all been pretty accurate, so I must admit I trust Jayde to have gotten the rest of them correct as well :-)

    And Takalon, yeah I want to check the Blackbird and a good QL Beamer as well. However none of them have wanted to drop for me the little time I've been looking for them. Guess I need to camp some :-)
    Last edited by Zura; May 7th, 2004 at 06:53:04.
    Zura
    Fixer of Rubi-Ka 1
    Me - Stuff

  11. #11
    Maybe I can trust you
    Killer 66% Achiever 46% Socializer 46% Explorer 40%

  12. #12
    Here are the results for the Blinded Blackbird and the Perennium Beamer. I only had a QL 153 Beamer available for the test, but there should be no difference up to a QL 200 one (identical stats in the database burst wise - as far as I can see at least). A big thanks to Takalon for letting me use her Blackbird for the test :-)

    QL105 Blinded Blackbird
    Base burst recycle time (no gear, zero burst skill): 35 seconds
    Burst recycle cap without Skill Lock reduction items: 9 sec (reached for me)

    0 skill lock (no gear):
    Measured: 9,2 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 9 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)

    -6 skill lock (hand):
    Measured: 7,9 sec (reduction 1,3 sec, 14,1% of my burst recycle, 3,7% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 7 sec (reduction 2 sec, 21,7% of my burst recycle, 5,7% of base burst recycle)

    -17 skill lock (leg, hand):
    Measured: 6,7 sec (reduction 2,5 sec, 27,2% of my burst recycle, 7,1% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 5 sec (reduction 4 sec, 43,5% of my burst recycle, 11,4% of base burst recycle)


    QL153 Perennium Beamer
    Base burst recycle time (no gear, zero burst skill): 45 seconds
    Burst recycle cap without Skill Lock reduction items: 9 sec (reached for me)

    0 skill lock (no gear):
    Measured: 9,3 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 9 sec (reduction 0 sec, 0% of my burst recycle, 0% of base burst recycle)

    -6 skill lock (hand):
    Measured: 7,7 sec (reduction 1,6 sec, 17,2% of my burst recycle, 3,6% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 7 sec (reduction 2 sec, 21,5% of my burst recycle, 4,4% of base burst recycle)

    -17 skill lock (leg, hand):
    Measured: 6,7 sec (reduction 2,6 sec, 28,0% of my burst recycle, 5,8% of base burst recycle)
    Reported: 5 sec (reduction 4 sec, 43,0% of my burst recycle, 8,9% of base burst recycle)
    Zura
    Fixer of Rubi-Ka 1
    Me - Stuff

  13. #13
    Great work

    Sticky!

    Or atleast link it somewhere in the top posts =)
    Morph - TAG Kingpin

  14. #14
    Thank you for this information.
    Strong Work!
    Main: - Vonshot: 217/26 Omni Trox Trader

    Alts:
    - Nycrow: 191/11 Trox Fixer
    - Tanknip: 217/14 Trox Doctor, The Cookie Monster
    - Nightswan: 164/5 Solitus Crat
    - Ghostblade: 184/19 Trox Shade
    - Megachug: 57/5 Trox Enforcer
    - Kyllx: 51/5 Opifex Agent

  15. #15
    Outstanding emperical data - good work !
    Tsunameh
    First Savior of Rimor. Former keeper professional.
    Tsunameh

    Legends sometimes come back to haunt their enemies.

    Playing WoW as a facemelter.

  16. #16

  17. #17
    Yet again... simply amazing
    One thing I can confirm is that reported burst recycle is on client side alone. I have tried this by simply unplugging my internet connection, and seeing how the reported value is affected. Its not, goes from 7-1(for example) then once it has counted down, it says "Action is not avaiable" until it gets a "ok" from server.
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  18. #18
    Great work!

    But...it confirmed oppinion I heard before: SkillLock items doen't worth using with fast recycle guns. Seen many fixers selling Headband/Roing after trying.
    So I'll better use HHAB instead of Ring of Herodotus etc.
    Matrofix - 220 (AI 17) atrox fixer [eqp] ::: Member of Legion

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