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Thread: How to kill a game - Remove Twinking/OEing

  1. #81
    I would have to be neutral on this issue, becuz i have always used armor and items that i could use with self buffs, and alittle implant or 2, i really didnt care about being twinked, i wore what i found and self buffed to wear it, no biggie, it does bug me, being the less capable one in the group with the low acs, getting hit for 500s while my team mates are sitting their, twinked, taking aggro like it was nothing, and i have also tried pvp, Death for my highest char being nt, i never really enjoyed standing around and being buffed figuring out all the math, i was never good at math to begin with -shrugs-, but i guess i do have some respect for people who are good at math, and have the ability to wait, and have the money to OE. i also know alot of other people who dont OE, who pvp all the time,with the same low acs as me, and do fine, if not better, but i know it will be harder, for gunner types, but i think we should see alot better fights in pvp, longer, and it will take some real strategies to win. My thoughts in a nut shell, neutral...
    Let's Stop Praying for someone to save us....
    And Save Ourselves....
    ~Trillius~ Clansmen Agent

  2. #82
    Originally posted by Shadelore
    Ppl who complain about other ppl who are overequipped, ingenious, inventive, are the ones who either dont bother, or cant do it, and want everybody else to be helpless....Well, fine by me, but that is communism, and that equals a shot in the neck in the gutter if you ask me,

    Long live free enterprise! =)
    Down with those who want to drag our twinks into mediocreness!
    And very much **** equality & that piss =)
    So arguing against massive OEing is now communism and an execution in the gutter? I read a lot of asinine things on this board, but lately that takes the cake. My suggestion to you is: take a college political science course and learn what communism actually is and then consider that you are now talking about a small rule change in a computer game. Not about withering away the state and introducing communal ownership of the means of production via an intermediate phase of the dictatorship of the proletariat, et cetera, et cetera.

    Anyway, what a lot of people seem to miss while they're patting themselves on their backs over their skill with a calculator, is that a lot of the problems with OE regard the way people were deriving permanent benefits from temporary skill buffs, which by nature are only supposed to provide a temporary advantage to the buffee. You get a wrangle that lasts only a few minutes but lets you use a weapon or piece of armor that you couldn't normally use indefinitely, which is not what Funcom intended. If you look at the OE changes, this is exactly what is being addressed.
    Numi7, Omni-Tech Employee
    Solitus Engineer
    Division 3 [Omni Reclamation]
    RK2

  3. #83
    Just to play the devil's advocate, one could argue that Funcom did, in fact, intend for players to be able to derive permanent benefit from a temporary stat/skill increase, since they programmed in no safeguard against such a permanent benefit.

    A year (give or take) later is no time to be installing such a safeguard. I think it's another illustration of a lack of foresight. Surely somebody must have realized that permanent benefits could be gained from the temporary stat increases, or that you could implant to allow for the installation of better implants, which allow for the installation of better implants. I wonder if there were any conversations about this before release, and what the attitudes were then.

    One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is how incredibly rich some few professions can become because these temporary buffs can bring permanent benefit. Traders, doctors and enforcers (especially traders) all have buffs that allow this. Soldiers, to a lesser extent, can make a bit of money from lower level soldiers looking to get into a better Nova Flow.

    As a developer, you should be asking yourself, "will people play all of the professions/classes we created with a somewhat even distribution, or will they tend to choose the ones that will allow them to make lots of money or equip items they shouldn't be able to because of their buffs?"

    We all know what the answer to that is. I don't pay $13 a month for rock-paper-scissors. Each profession should have equal desirability and utility, or it shouldn't be included in the game.

    I have seen the whining about DAOC's approach to nullifying the over-equipping issue, and I have seen some people posting here using the "don't be mad because I'm higher level..." defense. Bull****. You say you should be better equipped because you have played longer? That's what the DAOC system is. Want better gear? Go level up. You truly have the benefit over the newbie in terms of gear in DAOC. And, don't get me wrong. I hate that game.

    Also, in DAOC, you can use items that con red to you with no loss of benefit, other than that they decay faster. Isn't that technically over-equipping, because items that con higher than yellow to you were intended to be used by higher level characters? I think it is.

    If the only pleasure you derive from this game is using higher level gear than you should be, that's sad, and you should quit and do something that's truly enjoyable.

  4. #84
    Originally posted by Eidolus

    Also, in DAOC, you can use items that con red to you with no loss of benefit, other than that they decay faster. Isn't that technically over-equipping, because items that con higher than yellow to you were intended to be used by higher level characters? I think it is.

    If the only pleasure you derive from this game is using higher level gear than you should be, that's sad, and you should quit and do something that's truly enjoyable.
    Few points.

    DAoC is a crappy game all around, not necessarily because of it's item system.

    The real twinking problem stems from an insane item reliance in MMORPG's to define what you can and can't do. You don't see this problem AS bad in table top RPG's. The 'gear' curve is insanely steep in MMORPGS'. Gear can make you 10 to 20 times better then you are.

    Just to give you an example (using Ad&d 2nd ed.) A standard longsword on a fighter offered no extra bonus to attack and dealt 1-8 dmg, + his strength bonus, + his specialization (+2 more dmg if applicable. So, asuming he was fairly strong (+2), he'd deal 5-12 damage per attack. Average of about 9 damage.

    A +5 longsword (the highest number bonus you can get on a weapon aside from nice extras) would give him a +5 to his attack roll, which depending on his level and what he fought, would increase his chance to hit by around +50%, give or take 25%. He would do 10-17 dmg per attack. Average of about 14 damage.

    Either way, the difference between the best longsword damage and the worst longsword damage in a table top RPG is around +50% more.

    Compare EQ's weapons, compare DAoC's weapons, compare AO's weapons... the difference is 10, 20, THIRTY TIMES more powerful. +3000% more in MMORPGS!!! Compare primal to a normal longsword in EQ. Compare 'insert lame metal type' to bronze in DaoC, compare a q10 to a q200 in AO. The difference is INSANE. Absurdly insane!

    And my friends, absurdy unnecessary.

    What I think was going to happen in AO was that skill really determined how well your weapon performed. But for some reason, constant skill calculations were a significant processor load on the server. So instead of actually determining them real time, they made 200 versions of the same weapon, and then when they calculate your damage, they find the database value of your weapon, and go from there. You just put on the best one you can by yourself, and that would rougly be the same amount of damage that you should do if they skill calculated.

    But you see, Funcom doesn't always realize the consequences of their shortcuts. And thus wrangling/buffing for OE'ing became a way of life.

    Why else would you actually bother to make 200 versions of a weapon? There's no point. There should be 3-4 versions of a weapon max. A crappy one, a store issue, an elite issue, and arguably a 'premium' There's NO USE For 200 versions of weapons.

  5. #85
    Originally posted by Terranigma
    As I am talking my account is going to be deactivated soon. I don't think any of you should pick on DAoC. Alot of players enjoy it .

    The problem is no players interestingly in shops trying to figure how to OE. The problem lies in that the new players with first characters like myself do not have a higher level character to give myself money through a friend then OE.

    Some of you interstingly mentions this is how a high level player should be able to enjoy himself after playing for so long , but thats a selfish view as to the newer player it isn't fun at all. To either get killed in one shot in pvp , or watch their wepaon do much less damage to mobs during grouping. Isn't it terrible to see a trader MUCH doing more damage then you're soldier with the best equipment you can afford. Sure you can blitz but I don't tihnk alot of newbies know how to do it. Even if they do I think it's a stupid and unrealistic way to obtain money.

    Sure I agree that being able to stand out because you're more skilled is right , but being able to stand out because you have been in the game before the other guy the idea is just stupid.

    Now going back to DAoC yes it was not as good when it was released , but it is constantly improving , just because AO is imporving doesn't mean DAoC doesn't improve. The patchs are more frequent and they fix alot of problems quickly , they are also oofering housing next patch. The RvR is way better now. The world is small , but why do you care? What use is a huge world like AO when there are little varience of monsters ,you spend msot of you're time just missioning. In DAoC you actually explore the world even thought it's small it's better more detailed and the pets and mobs are way smarter too.

    At RvR before it was boring ,but now it's much more better ( at least for my server). They added a new realm where the entrance is open to the realm which is winning the war. This encourages many High Levels to participate in war and it's much more dynamic now. This new realm called Darkness Falls offers stuff for high levels to do that can give them very high level stuff and many new items , like decorative dresses. Do we see this content added on in Anarchy Online? No we don't they work contantly to fix the game and thye diverted their time in developing the expansion pack which offer features I don't really get interested on.

    Whoever said the level restriction in DAoC is insane , yes there are restrictions , but you can OE just not Oeing so you can use something loads of levels above you. Most newbies have to use stuff under there level while twinks can use stuff over their level. Now it does make a difference not only so insane like AO. Saying that many players left DAoC is true , but not many and many more are joining them (like me) many of you say it's a crappy world , but whats the use of a much bigger world when you don't use most of it .

    In fact a smaller world is better because the players will be more densed in each area so you feel more a part of the community .i'm enjoying myself plus classes are nicely balanced here however many people have different views and likes so please don't get pissed.

    The orginal poster said he was saying his stuff based on facts not opinions . He is a total idiot DAoC has recently exceeded the subscribing amount of 200k. Now thats a fact

    Guess why Anarchy Online never put their number of players online and has only 2-3 servers? All Funcom's got to boast about is that single award they have been given.

    Anyway I disagree that the 20% change is harmfull it does not kill OE it only limits so it can't be used to the extremes people can still OE but just not to become supremly powerful if you want go play CS and use aimbot :P

    Yes if players has reached their limit , they can leave , but they shouldn't spoil the newbies fun because they are selfish and dont' want their alt to go through all the trouble again if u get bored just quit new players will come if a games good. IF you say you're experienced and should't go through all the trobule to go back to the top go play a FPS.
    DAOC does suck!

    I bought the game about six months ago, went in, got to lvl 23, joined a guild.. whoopie. game sucks. cancelled.

    Started again, figured I would try a solo career. cancelled, thats pretty damn impossible after lvl 5 in DAOC. Cancelled.

    Started again. This time I just got plain sick of the "you will be a [insert gay class here], you will be stuck using [insert armor type for gay class here] and you will have to wield [another gay weapon]. Then, making a caster I realize that, what? Every single time I get hit I get interrupted? Some told me that it changes at high levels but please, give me my AO gimped, casting NT and I'll ***** smack every Wizard in that game.

  6. #86
    This is my whole point about DaoC VS. AO, if you don't agree with my previous post.

    http://www.anarchy-online.com/banner...4686/view.html

  7. #87
    Overequipping, simply put, is receiving the benefits gained by using an item you do not have the skills to use. To me, I haven't heard a logical arguement yet to allow it. People wanting OE are wanting an advantage basically for their ability to use a calculator (or being able to read a webpage).

    People wanting the basically unrestricted overequipping prior to 14.2 are ignoring the types of effects OE has on the game at the levels that are as equally important as the high level ones: the levels experienced by new players. What message is sent to a new player when they see a pair of OE'ed players walk through the static dungeon that took them 5 teammates and a couple deaths? And what MMOG can survive without new players?

    How does a developer create balanced and varied content for a playerbase whose abilities vary so drastically with unrestricted overequipping? These aren't solely PvP arguements. These are things that affect all content in the game.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  8. #88
    Originally posted by Eidolus
    If the only pleasure you derive from this game is using higher level gear than you should be, that's sad, and you should quit and do something that's truly enjoyable.
    A couple of things...

    First off that is not the only enjoyment I get from the game. Second, I like the option to be able to be more powerful in a game if I spend the time, money, brainpower to accomplish it. And lastly, the gear wasn't higher QL than it "should be" until they announced this patch a year after release. Just because one player can afford to use a "quality" piece of equipment, while another can only afford or figure out how to use a "worn" one, is not a reason to nerf the "quality" player.

    I will not argue that implant stepping was a bug and that should have been fixed long ago. But it has now been fixed and the level to which you can over equip your character is already limited, if you did not know that. I seriously get the feeling that everyone in this thread against what is left of over equiping is thanking back to level 10's with QL 200 NCU and is basing their attitude off of that. Well wake up, thoose days are already gone, there is already a maximum tby which you equip your character and results do not make your character all that uber. Also, pretty much anyone with even a moderate amount of cash and the inclination can reach that point with their character.

    All this additional nerf does, is further limit the QL of the equipment you can use all the way down to the level of the folks that never had the inclination to make the best character they could anyways, but whined about how over powered everyone else was.

    To me, if they want to make everyone "even", the solution would be to leave the rules on equiping as they are now(already limited) and remove everyones gear to force people who used old exploits to gain an equipment advantage back down into the already limited range we have to deal with now.
    Flann - Doctor
    Kwoung - Martial Artist
    Acidwash - Fixer (semi-retired)
    Rubi-Ka 2
    The Descendants

  9. #89
    Originally posted by Kuroshio
    People wanting the basically unrestricted overequipping prior to 14.2 are ignoring the types of effects OE has on the game at the levels that are as equally important as the high level ones: the levels experienced by new players. What message is sent to a new player when they see a pair of OE'ed players walk through the static dungeon that took them 5 teammates and a couple deaths? And what MMOG can survive without new players?

    How does a developer create balanced and varied content for a playerbase whose abilities vary so drastically with unrestricted overequipping? These aren't solely PvP arguements. These are things that affect all content in the game.
    As I stated in my post above, over equiping was drastically altered already with the removal of implant stepping in a previous patch, but you like many others seem to be completely ignoring that fact. Overequiping is far from unrestricted already, your argument holds no water.

    The current level of over equiping allows a level 29 character I overequiped to the max to do a 75%-80% mission solo, as opposed to a 50% one. To me that is not that huge range of a variance to account for, nor is it what I would consider extremely overpowered. The forthcoming changes in 14.2 will most likely drop that character back to only being able to do a 55-60% mission.
    Last edited by Kwoung; May 30th, 2002 at 18:15:34.
    Flann - Doctor
    Kwoung - Martial Artist
    Acidwash - Fixer (semi-retired)
    Rubi-Ka 2
    The Descendants

  10. #90

    2 cents

    My 2 cents;

    I think a different systems of equipping is need for PvM and PvP. Balance PvP , but until you balance ther monstes in mission a little better leave the OE equipping as it is.

    Also do you know what is special about special edition?

    It is more fully playtested (by the paying players) and it is closer to where the game should have been when released.

    thanks

  11. #91
    I didnt read everything in this thread but got the gist of it. I agree with the main topic starter removing OE'ing is going to be a bad move on AO's part. If you look below at my signature you will see that I have a vast majority of players. Now all of them have been OE'ed at one time or another the only one that comes to mind now is my newest experiment. Deciple666 if it wasnt for making him I would not be playing anymore as just normal same damn thing Find team get mission do mission repeat rinse and rewash. So making my twinks here and there give me some fun back. Deciple666 is prolly my favorite twink but befor him was Nextwish and so on back to my very first. So I always have more fun with a newer one. If they take OE'ing away there is a 90% chance that I wont bother playing anymore cause be like everyone is going to get boring fast.

    I as most others like to be different than others in the game. If the people who are whining about cant OE then just ask others who can they will show you if not give me a tell and I will teach you how to OE. I will describe what Deciple has at the end.

    Ok now Deciple is lvl 6 Freshman Enforcer. He is currently fitted with ql30 implants, ql 36 Organic Armor full suit cept one sleeve which is med suit for higher stims, ql 25 Tertius Armor Coat, a ql 37 Native Alloy Staff in his left hand, a ql 9 Native Alloy Staff in his right hand due to the multi range requirments, a ql30 3 Slot Belt, ql94 8-16NCU at 9NCU a piece. My weapons I can self buff with a minor outside buff of +11. The armor I only need Cyclops to get into. Now if I were to leave the current implants in I could never buff my armor on. So that will explain how we do it. First I made my ql30 CompLit implants and got my NCU on. Then I switched them got ql30 Strength Stamina Implants in and put 2 ql 10 Concrete Cushins on got Iron Circle Str Stm Expertise and put armor on. Then I made the Agility Implants and left the strength ones in and got Feline Grace for the ql25 Tertius Coat. Finally I made all my ql30 Weapon, HP, AC implants and then searched for my weapons. To finish him I went a PvPed got defeated once so far but I have turned down a couple fights mainly to higher lvl players because I am enforcer I have to stay away from rooting classes. I only got one more step I want to do to my enforcer which is to get my Ring of Power - Melee ql 10-14, and my bracers.

    So if you all wanted to know why we like doing it that will explain it. It is chalenging to us that like to do it. Also I never use outside buffs when PvPing. Just letting ya know=P

    I hope the cleared a few things up with why people like to OE and helped others that didnt know how to OE. It does get costly Deciple cost me about 4million credits to do but in my opinion was well worth it.

  12. #92
    Originally posted by Flann


    As I stated in my post above, over equiping was drastically altered already with the removal of implant stepping in a previous patch, but you like many others seem to be completely ignoring that fact. Overequiping is far from unrestricted already, your argument holds no water.

    The current level of over equiping allows a level 29 character I overequiped to the max to do a 75%-80% mission solo, as opposed to a 50% one. To me that is not that huge range of a variance to account for, nor is it what I would consider extremely overpowered. The forthcoming changes in 14.2 will most likely drop that character back to only being able to do a 55-60% mission.

    Now is that expectation based on fear or actual experience? Have you tried playing AO without overequipping lately? And whoever said 75%-80% solo missions were supposed to be survivable alone? If 50% difficulty means that you're supposed to have a 50/50 chance of surviving the mission, what's a 75% mission supposed to mean?
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  13. #93
    Originally posted by Kuroshio
    Now is that expectation based on fear or actual experience? Have you tried playing AO without overequipping lately? And whoever said 75%-80% solo missions were supposed to be survivable alone? If 50% difficulty means that you're supposed to have a 50/50 chance of surviving the mission, what's a 75% mission supposed to mean?
    It is based on actual experience. I have played that character both over equiped and normally equiped, he can not even do a 50% mission without being over equiped to some extent or another. Have you ever tried playing a character with a gun, armour, etc.. the same QL as you? A even con mob will destroy most classes unless they are over equiped, this arguement is just about how much over equiping is realistic for the good of the game.

    Also, to me a 50% mission does not mean I have a 50% chance of surviving it either. To me, a 50% mission means that the mobs will be even level to me for the most part, some lower, some higher and depending on how well my character is equiped that will determain my chance of surviving it. By your logic, equipment should have no bearing on what level mission I can do really. As far as doing it alone goes, I am getting these missions from the single player mission terminal, not the team one, that should be self explainitory.

    As far as who said a 75-80% mission should be survivable, well I think Funcom did when they set the range on the mission sliders for solo missions. My understanding is if you are a complete gimp, have crummy equipment and play a really underpowered class, you better set it way on the easy side, if however you are extremely skilled, playing the right class and have great equipment then you should be near max hard. Obviously Joe Average should have it set right in the middle as his equipment, skills and class are well...average.
    Last edited by Kwoung; May 30th, 2002 at 19:41:12.
    Flann - Doctor
    Kwoung - Martial Artist
    Acidwash - Fixer (semi-retired)
    Rubi-Ka 2
    The Descendants

  14. #94
    Originally posted by Flann


    It is based on actual experience. I have played that character both over equiped and normally equiped, he can not even do a 50% mission without being over equiped to some extent or another. Have you ever tried playing a character with a gun, armour, etc.. the same QL as you? A even con mob will destroy most classes unless they are over equiped, this arguement is just about how much over equiping is realistic for the good of the game.
    Yes I have tried playing the 'straight' game. I've never overequipped any of my character. And if you're using a weapon that's the same QL level as your character's level, you are underequipped. A normal character's skills easily support weapons +15 QL higher than they are in the lower levels with implants. With the 20% OE range they can easily use equipment beyond that.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  15. #95

    wristwatch

    I just don't get it. If you enter a PvP zone and get killed by an OE'd opponent. Why are you crying about it? The obvious solution is to OE yourself. Find the buffs, find the wrangle and go for it! These large buffs are a part of the game that you are choosing to avoid. Why do Anti-OE'ers feel others should adhere to these choices, poor or otherwise?

    Lastnite, I got mochams on my lvl 40 Crat and had a blast killin mobs at NW mines for 2.5 - 3K a pop with my uberbot? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? This arguement that my actions are bad or wrong is insane! I'm sorry, but some of these Anti-OE'ers just sound like a bunch of losers that simply don't know how to play the game.

    This is not directed to anyone in particular. But, my god people! Get with the program!

  16. #96

    Re: wristwatch

    Originally posted by Halfnelson
    I just don't get it. If you enter a PvP zone and get killed by an OE'd opponent. Why are you crying about it? The obvious solution is to OE yourself. Find the buffs, find the wrangle and go for it! These large buffs are a part of the game that you are choosing to avoid. Why do Anti-OE'ers feel others should adhere to these choices, poor or otherwise?

    Lastnite, I got mochams on my lvl 40 Crat and had a blast killin mobs at NW mines for 2.5 - 3K a pop with my uberbot? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? This arguement that my actions are bad or wrong is insane! I'm sorry, but some of these Anti-OE'ers just sound like a bunch of losers that simply don't know how to play the game.

    This is not directed to anyone in particular. But, my god people! Get with the program!
    The OE changes aren't really applicable in that situation. Crat bots aren't permanent until death, like engineer bots. If you still had your uber-bot when the Mocham's wore off, you'll be in trouble post 14.2 (because your bot will stop responding to commands as soon as it notices you no longer have the skills and it's not in combat).

    And it's not about having the buffs to OE and you know it. The nanoformula to summon your uber-bot didn't just appear in your nanolist the moment you received the mochams. New players don't have the option to overequip.

    Further, overequipping has effects on game difficulty and content. If overequipping causes people to race through content geared for their level and allows them to take on content meant to be above their levels, the developers have to turn around and tweak things to return things back to spec. This makes the game very unfriendly towards completely new players as they stand lower chances against content that was originally geared for their level but has been tweaked to deal with overequippers.

    And if you want to call people a "bunch of losers that simply don't know how to play the game." I'd honestly suggest you rethink that stance. I know how to OE my character to high hell and back. I play a character that can overequip far earlier than your crat can and far higher than your crat can if I choose to do so. I play a profession with the best complit buffs in the game, which is key to overequipping. Yeap, I play a trader. And you'd be pissed to high hell if I took my trader, OE'd him to hell, and farmed NW Mines into extinction leaving you with crumbs. Never mind if I capped you in 2 shots 16 seconds after you walked through a PvP zone. Nevermind if you found yourself with nothing to do because you couldn't get that Mochams one night and the mobs at the levels your real skills allow you to play were unbeatable.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  17. #97

    Re: How to kill a game - Remove Twinking/OEing

    Originally posted by Flann
    In my opinion, there should be a way in every game to make it easier the second, third, etc, time around. Otherwise folks will just leave... period.

    And...

    Also without over equiping, the game company removes the occassional feeling even the noob got as he managed to wiggle into a new higher level gun or armor that dropped, thus giving him a feeling of extra power and satisfaction for a while. He can now kill easier, live longer and gets excited about the game all over again because he broke his dying streak or got a level faster than the last time.
    Are you included in the "folks" from the first section of the quote, or not?

    Are you included in the "...without over equiping, the game company removes the occassional feeling even the noob got as he managed to wiggle into a hew higher level gun or armor that dropped, thus giving him a feeling of extra power and satisfaction for a while" part?

    I'll never say anyone doesn't have the right to their opinion on what makes the game pleasurable, but I haven't seen any indication that you aren't the one that you're posting about.

    Also from Flann:

    Is that a bad thing, that I want to play a fun powerful alt I took a serious amount of time to maximize, instead of the monotony of my main doing 50% missions sometimes?

    Here, "fun," "powerful," and "maximize" all appear in the same sentence. You play this character because you have made things easier for it through twinking/over-equipping. That's not wrong at all. But, if the only reason it is "fun" is because of twinking/over-equipping, not because the abilities of the character's profession or the experiences you've had in concert with other players/characters, what does that say?

    Eventually, the over-equipping parade stops. You can't get QL 700 gear to over-equip. Where do you go when you hit the peak of available gear? Where does that "occasional feeling that even the noob got as he managed to wiggle (wrangle, perhaps?) into that new higher level gun or armor that dropped" come from?

    One last thing:

    I truely believe that if you limit peoples power to over equip and twink their characters, you will cause them to lose interest in the game over the long term. So while it may solve some short term issues and level the playing field, I think they will find that the customers that may have stayed for many years trying different classes and charactyers, will now instead look at trying different games as a viable option. You see, giving up an account with high level characters and tons of funds/equipment is not easy, you basically have the power to buy your own enjoyment in the game. But if you take away or limit that buying power, you take away and limit the enjoyment, so there is no longer anything holding you here. ie: Its much easy to pack it in and move to the next game now.

    My question is: are you one of those people that will leave because twinking/over-equipping is mostly meaningless with the next patch, as you can't "buy your own enjoyment in the game?"

  18. #98
    Umm Eidolus, whats your point?

    I would think it obvious that by me starting and defending this thread that yes, this is how I feel. As far as will I be leaving the game anytime soon, I have no idea. That depends 100% on how long the game keeps my interest, the same as you I would suspect. Like many people though, when my interest in playing my main wanes, out of frustration normally, I turn to a alt I made for just that occassion and I certainly do not want my alt to frustrate me as well.

    Originally posted by Eidolus
    But, if the only reason it is "fun" is because of twinking/over-equipping, not because the abilities of the character's profession or the experiences you've had in concert with other players/characters, what does that say?
    It says I have those experiences you mention playing my non-overequiped main on a near daily basis and sometimes I want a change and to do something different with a whole heck of a lot less of the grind factor attached to it.
    Last edited by Kwoung; May 30th, 2002 at 23:37:38.
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  19. #99

    Re: Re: wristwatch

    Originally posted by Kuroshio

    New players don't have the option to overequip.
    Baloney.


    Further, overequipping has effects on game difficulty and content. If overequipping causes people to race through content geared for their level and allows them to take on content meant to be above their levels, the developers have to turn around and tweak things to return things back to spec.
    What spec? This statement makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't sound like anything a dev would have to tweak. Simply someone putting on better armor or weapon.

    This makes the game very unfriendly towards completely new players as they stand lower chances against content that was originally geared for their level but has been tweaked to deal with overequippers.
    As mentioned above, why fix it when it ain't broke?

    I play a profession with the best complit buffs in the game, which is key to overequipping. Yeap, I play a trader. And you'd be pissed to high hell if I took my trader, OE'd him to hell, and farmed NW Mines into extinction leaving you with crumbs. Never mind if I capped you in 2 shots 16 seconds after you walked through a PvP zone. Nevermind if you found yourself with nothing to do because you couldn't get that Mochams one night and the mobs at the levels your real skills allow you to play were unbeatable.
    Would I be pissed? No way, Jose! I'd be /telling you "Hey man, how did you become so uber! I wanna kill big mobs and get crazy xp too! I wanna be a PvP maniac too!"

    If I couldn't get Mochams? Oh well, guess I'm heading over to SW mines instead.

    Your irony is astounding though. You play the most broken character in the game, a Trader. Yet, you lecture about OE. Interesting.

    Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the OE patch is NOT to turn the game into what FC had intended. It's to satisfy people that have to work all day and spend their off time posting in these forums. If they intended the game to exclude OEing, they would not have built it this way and would certainly not create a "fix" like this a year post-release. You know I push SWG even though Verant is firmly opposed to OEing. Great! They are doing it from the get-go, not after a year into it.

    Furthermore, this whole OE/non-OE debate is classic hardcore gamer vs. roleplayer. I am a hardcore gamer. I want the biggest baddest guns, armors, and spells I can possibly have so I can kick ass...plain and simple. You, it seems, want to be able to self buff your armor/gun on and off so you can go roleplay till your hearts content. FINE! You do your thing...let me do mine. If a newbie wants a bigger gun or armor, he/she will do the math and realize "hey, I need to over-equip". That's the realization I came to a year ago when I started as well as countless others. Why ruin months of work and fun for many players simply because the roleplayers want everybody to roleplay?!

    BTW, in my previous post I specifically said that none of it was directed at any single person. Just thoughts poured out. The "loser" comment may have been a little harsh and for those offended by it...I apologize.

  20. #100

    Re: Re: Re: wristwatch

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Halfnelson
    Originally posted by Kuroshio

    New players don't have the option to overequip.


    Baloney.
    Oh? Prove it. Start a completely new character. Don't transfer any credits or items to him. Don't tell your guild mates who you are so they'll let in a character they'd normally never even glance at. See how far you can overequip that character.

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    What spec? This statement makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't sound like anything a dev would have to tweak. Simply someone putting on better armor or weapon.
    If you think that any game on the market doesn't have an intended difficulty to get x item or beat y monster, you're kidding yourself. When trying to make that game to be played by more than 1 person simultaneously, they have to base that difficulty on the average player. When people show signs that the game is easier than intended, they either 1) tweak the difficulty up or 2) nerf the abilities down. Tweaking the difficulty up makes the game harder and harder to play for the average person, magnified if the person is completely new. MMOG exist on both player retention and new player aquisition. Do the math from this point on. Game difficult for average player + even more difficult for new player = less appeal for the large proportion of the playerbase.

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    Would I be pissed? No way, Jose! I'd be /telling you "Hey man, how did you become so uber! I wanna kill big mobs and get crazy xp too! I wanna be a PvP maniac too!"

    If I couldn't get Mochams? Oh well, guess I'm heading over to SW mines instead.

    Your irony is astounding though. You play the most broken character in the game, a Trader. Yet, you lecture about OE. Interesting.
    Yeap, the trader profession is full of broken abilities and logic errors. That makes playing the game as intended very difficult. The way some of the abilities are messed up makes it very easy to overequip. That doesn't help much in soloing (traders are nowhere near the best solo profession even when overequipped). And doesn't help much in team situations. What it did do is turn traders into a profession that sat on their ass most of the day executing wrangles. If traders were so much fun to play, so uber in their abilities, why aren't their more of them?

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the OE patch is NOT to turn the game into what FC had intended. It's to satisfy people that have to work all day and spend their off time posting in these forums. If they intended the game to exclude OEing, they would not have built it this way and would certainly not create a "fix" like this a year post-release. You know I push SWG even though Verant is firmly opposed to OEing. Great! They are doing it from the get-go, not after a year into it.
    Verant won't allow OE at all, we agree on that. But pretending they won't make game altering changes a year after release is naive. They did it with EQ. They make class altering changes to this day. They will do it in SWG if they think it's necessary. Where do you think the sarcastic term "The Vision(tm)" came from?

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    Furthermore, this whole OE/non-OE debate is classic hardcore gamer vs. roleplayer. I am a hardcore gamer. I want the biggest baddest guns, armors, and spells I can possibly have so I can kick ass...plain and simple. You, it seems, want to be able to self buff your armor/gun on and off so you can go roleplay till your hearts content. FINE! You do your thing...let me do mine. If a newbie wants a bigger gun or armor, he/she will do the math and realize "hey, I need to over-equip". That's the realization I came to a year ago when I started as well as countless others. Why ruin months of work and fun for many players simply because the roleplayers want everybody to roleplay?!

    BTW, in my previous post I specifically said that none of it was directed at any single person. Just thoughts poured out. The "loser" comment may have been a little harsh and for those offended by it...I apologize.
    I'm neither a complete hardcore player nor am I a complete roleplay. I'm pretty much average. If AO was geared completely towards roleplay, I'd not be here. If it was geared completely towards hardcore players, I'd not be here. The game is playable without OE, to much higher levels that people claim. And you can still have the baddest gun and best armor you have the skills to support post 14.2. And if your definition of fun is equipping the best of everything News Flash: you could do that pre-14.2 long before you reached even level 180. What were your plans then?
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

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