How to kill a game - Remove Twinking/OEing

[______________Kwoung]

Originally posted by Nvrmore100
I look at my Enforcer for example. At level 27, with nothing more than a brutal thug buff, some really basic implants, and a 2h blunt expertise, I'm running around with a ql92 hammer.

Well that is not a overall OE problem, that is a totally different game design problem. If you can self buff into a QL 92 weapon at level 27, there is a problem with that weapon or the buffs, the requirements are too low. Also, if you self buffed into it, what is stopping pretty much anyone else from doing the exact same other than a particular wepon or two being way overpowered?


As for the crit buffs, well they are already being "fixed", so that will not be a issue anymore. Will your results be the same once you are no longer critting the other players?

I should also add that this goes back to PvP, a part of the game that most players do not even partake in. So your assumption that this is not fun for most people is flawed, as most people never even encounter it. A very small percentage of people are affected by this problem, which begs the point, is it even worth addressing if the solution will effect players negatively? When was the last time you heard a group member complain that you were doing to much damage? PvM solo or grouped is where even PvPers spend 90% of there online time until they reach the upper levels right?

[Cotharin]

I'm no where near being able to cast brutal thug on my own. The rest I self casted. The implants I need a ton of buffs to get into (IC, Essence +20, Feline, Enhanced Senses, and a bunch of other boosts). But that is my point exactly. Why is this even possible? It shouldn't be even an option for someone to do. It's simply not fair. The funny part is, even after OE, I'll still do more damage than if I had a hammer my level, where as my pet class characters (I have one of each) all won't be able to even use that better bot/demon....seems dumb to me.

[______________Kwoung]

Ahh sorry, I thought Brutal Thug was your own buff.

Anyways, with the already implemented changes, would you still be able to accept that nano cast on you at level 27 if you took out your NCU and re-equiped it under the new restrictions? If so, then there is nothing from stopping anyone else from doing just that, as one buff and a few NCU are not that expensive. If not, well then Funcom has already addressed the problem with the changes they already implemented recently.

There is a huge difference between being able to maximize into some level appropriate NCU's with the way things work now and twinking into QL200 NCU's through bugs that no longer exist and took millions of credits to accomplish(I am not saying you did that, it was just an example).

[ethernal3]

What the whiners want it just to always know exactly what chance they have in PvP. Taking it to another level, they always want to win in PvP.
~Chris

[________________nait]

Originally posted by Nvrmore100
Twinking is dumb, and it completely ruins the fun for a lot of people. The people that twink remind me of the cheaters in the many FPS games I've played. You can't hack it as a average player, so you resort to cheating to get better instantly. What you don't realize is you make it less fun for everyone else.

That's a remarkably popular sentiment, and most power-gamers have no idea how widespread it is. There are any number of reasons why the OE rules are changing, but my bet is that the biggest reason is money. Who's got the money? Who brings it?

In any MMORPG, high-level players dominate a mere 5%-8% of the customer base at any given time, and an even smaller percentage of incoming cashflow due to a continuous influx of new customers purchasing the game client. Most gamers out there are actually pretty casual. They don't have the time to really twink out a secondary character, and they're immediately turned off and discouraged by the sight of dozens of twinks within minutes of making lvl 2 and heading out of the backyard.

Those people bring the money. Those people are the ones you want to stick around. They only play once in awhile, they don't create a heavy load on your servers, they don't whine on your forums, and they follow predictable paths in terms of picking up, playing, and even cancelling their accounts when things go poorly. You don't want to discourage those people from playing your game.

[Cotharin]

Of course I can accept it. I'm against twinking. I made my enforcer that way because I was tired of dying on my MP and my DOC every single time I go to MMD just to grid out. Thankfully both of them are easily flying now, but those first 50 levels on them were hell when you needed to get a mission out there. I would make a mad dash for the grid find another 6 person omni team standing next to it, waiting for victims.

I welcome the OE changes, even though I won't be able to get uber twinked into a bad bot everytime I log in now. But hey, can't always have a bot 100 levels above you.

[______________Kwoung]

Originally posted by nait
Those people bring the money. Those people are the ones you want to stick around. They only play once in awhile, they don't create a heavy load on your servers, they don't whine on your forums, and they follow predictable paths in terms of picking up, playing, and even cancelling their accounts when things go poorly. You don't want to discourage those people from playing your game.

Just so you know, my highest level character is only level 86, his best piece of equipment is only level 110 or so I think and I am a pretty casual gamer. Me, like most everyone I know, do not enjoy being gimp forever. I already have numerous alts I play for fun here and there to relax, when nobody else is around. They are most definately more than 20% OEed on weapons or pets. Will I continue to play those alts after the changes? Most likely not. I do not play alt for the pure joy of playing one, I play a alt to relax, kick some butt solo and feel somewhat powerful, not go through the level grind the hard way all over again. If I want to just grind, I might as well play my primary then leave when I am bored of him. (just like most everyone did/is doing in DAOC)

On a side note, please do not make the mistake of relating "Casual Players", which I agree do make up a huge percentage of the game population, with "Gimp Players". Most everyone I play with has a job, family, limited playtime and are generally mature, thus they are mostly what would be considered casual gamers. Many of them are also some of the best gamers I have ever come across, in other games we have managed to take on and beat almost all of the most challenging encounters those games had to offer and we plan on doing the same here.

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by Flann


As was everything I said. The diffence is I offered proof, facts and alternatives, you just offered your simple opinion. So whats your point?

What I said was *not* an opinion, it was fact. OE didn't go anywhere, it was just made so you can't overquip as high QL as before. If you want to think this is a opinion, then you need some help.

[___________SypherBoy]

Dang, I got into this one too late I think. But here's my 2 creds...

Getting rid of twinking/OEing doesn't kill a game. It kills it for the twinkers/OEers, yes. But it doesn't kill a game. Unless you can show some hard facts to the contrary, I just don't believe it.

What kills a game, in my opinion, is little to no content. A player has done everything he can do and he's looking for more. Since there's no new high end stuff being put into the game, the player decided to make a new character. If he's lazy, he'll equip the new character will as much stuff as he can. If the game doesn't allow him to do that, then he quits.

[______________Kwoung]

Originally posted by Mor
What I said was *not* an opinion, it was fact. OE didn't go anywhere, it was just made so you can't overquip as high QL as before. If you want to think this is a opinion, then you need some help.

Well I guess that our opinions on what exactly constitutes over equiping differs then. At the most base level, I do not consider a weapon that I can self buff or implant myself into to be over equiping, even if I then swap out those implants or use different buffs for more useful skills afterwards because of NCU space limitations.

By your argument, even if I can self buff into a weapon, but do not keep those buffs running or implants in, I will be over equiping and that is fine and I should be penalized for it.

Personally I think that is bunk. I also think the game system is fine with the current changes to the max NCU's you can equip due to implant swapping being fixed. The nano's are out there available to be used and each and every one of them has a NCU cost attached to it. If a character can afford the IP and NCU's to have nano's that exist in game to be cast on him to equip a piece of equipment, then I think he should be able to do that without penalty if the buffs drop or implants are swapped out.

[Yesiamstoned]

This Change will completely change the game , where before i could make a full set of implants for a new player, equip him/her with the most ncu possible at a given time, and then show them what was possible if they thought through the mechanics of the game. Now I will not be able to accomplish this to the degree that I have Before. This game is being pushed closer to a level grinder like daoc. I left AO for a bit to try daoc and I found it absolutely boring. Now that I have reached alot higher level and have figured out why I was getting killed in 2 hits in 2HO by some atrox enforcer( Pre PvP nerf ) I can define a strategy and build a character to counter a rather uber individual. Instead to satisfy the individuals who did not or have not learned the gamed in its current state or lack the capacity and willingness to learn the game influence game breaking decisions. Those of us who did and are even willing to help others(time permittting) make a better first or second charachter are ignored and the game will suffer for it.

I had made alot of mistakes when i first started and never really over equipped for a long time simply because I had too narrow of a view in game. After I had opened my eyes to what was possible I then learned to create a much better character and also realized that I needed to be willing to spend the time and in game credits to become somewhat uber with that character. With 14.2 and the OE nerf Funcom is taking a good portion of the game , which I enjoy , and destroying it.


Down with 14.2

Yesiamstoned 140NT RK-2

[________BrontoCowboy]

Originally posted by Zeroshift
THe OE patch doesn't go far enough, not far enough at all...

They should have taken it all the way...

I'm personally tired of seeing everyone, and I mean everyone level 150+ running around in the same god damn gear...

With proper OE restrictions people would be a lot more willing to use the gear that's best suited for their skills.

I agree! I think that even the 20% rule is still too much OE'ing...

[Yesiamstoned]

Originally posted by Bronto_Cowboy


I agree! I think that even the 20% rule is still too much OE'ing...

Then GO PLAY DAOC!!!!!

[_____________Mr Bean]

But does DOAC have leets?

[Cotharin]

Originally posted by Mr Bean
But does DOAC have leets?

R U Nubi?

[Blowfish]

The problem I see is that Funcom has forced every knowledgable player to overequip their equipment. Take a look at the health and ac's of every monster you've ever fought. If you fight a monster that's the same breed and profession as you, the monster will ALWAYS have more health than you, like 30-40% more or something. The monster will ALWAYS have more AC's than you as well. So in order to get an advantage, you really need to overequip your weapons and armor. Try fighting a yellow con monster with nano's, weapons and armor below or equal to your level, and you'll find it's pretty damn hard to do. Try PvP'ing in stuff equal to your level, you'll die faster than you will to monsters. Anyway, once 14.2 comes around I'll get to put all my ips into stamina and body development to max my health, cause lord knows I'll need it.

[Loretta]

I don't care anymore, all my chars are 14.2 ready, including my 76 agent with Ranee. People with knowledge of the game mechanics, resources, friends, alts will still have the upper hand in PvP. As to PvM, next patch will slow down leveling because of self crit buffs. That's the only gripe I have at the moment. Because of that change I'm currently on a power leveling spree with my soldier, as I think she will be the most affected by the crit change. Missions are already a chore, and what I'm afraid of the most is that they will become so long and tedious that I may just hit the cancel button.

The interesting part of the next patch will be the shift in profession balance, and gameplay. The big question to me is whether MAs with their self only critical buffs will become the next most valued profession in this game. After all, they will most likely be the biggest damage dealers, and I can envision teams of 6 MAs ripping through missions, putting the rest of the classes, with pet pathing problems, lowered damage output, and nerfed heals (traders) to shame.

I guess all of the above is dependent on whether funcom will actually lower the mob HP to correspond to lowered damage. Since my personal opinion is that all of the above was done to prevent people from gaining levels too quickly, and not because of PvP imbalance, I can't see them doing that.

Which means, that whereas now I have something new to look forward every day (new nanos, skills, etc because of levels) I will have to spend more time waiting for it. Although I'm not necessarily an instant gratification person, I'd like to have fun while playing this game. I can only hope I will continue to have fun in the post 14.2 world.

[xbmspec]

GIVE UP ALREADY! JUST QUIT IF YOU DONT LIKE THE BLOODY CHANGES!
.. Sorry ..

[XtroXtreme]

Originally posted by Mor
Reality check...

OE is *not* being removed. The only difference is you can't *super OE* anymore. Overall it's a good balance, buffs to get armor on are still useful for example.

Case closed.

We don´t agree on many things Mor, but this is one.
You are actualy absolutly correct.

The effect the patch on weapon and armor is not perfect but better nothing.
The bad point in it is its effect on pet professions that loses control of pets. Personaly I think it would have been better to treat the pets as weapons and reduce damage then disable them.

[_________Lodrin-Omni]

Originally posted by SypherBoy

Getting rid of twinking/OEing doesn't kill a game. It kills it for the twinkers/OEers, yes. But it doesn't kill a game. Unless you can show some hard facts to the contrary, I just don't believe it.

What kills a game, in my opinion, is little to no content.

Well, that's the point. There is no content in AO, so people kinda have made a source of content with OE'ing. If you kill that, you will kill a major part of this game.

I know it sounds silly, but I have a lot of fun busting out calculators and nano nanny, treatment stepping implants, finding exactly how much extra skill i can milk at my current level and whether or not i can use that next lvl nano, etc. I know there are other people like me.

So when I can take a level 40ish soldier and put a q125 novaflow on him, that was an achievement. When I can take a level 70 enforcer and make him cast an essence that most enforcers don't use till 95, that was an achievemnt. I'm sure that someone with alot more resources then me could do better, but it took me a long time to do that, alot of work, but i did it And it was fun.

I'm not saying that's 'right', or good for the game. I'm just saying that it's a source of entertainment for me. A major one. At least 33% of the time I play this game, I am OE'ing, working on equipment, mission running, etc...

I get a good amount of fun out of blitzing missions and OE'ing twinks. I don't really pvp with them because I do not like the current pvp setup (i come from RZ in EQ.) I just find some cool people and help them get great xp