14.2 = major love for Traders heres why

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Mor
Bean if you want people to believe traders suck in PvP, then tell them something they can believe. Good luck!

Also the change weapon part, meant to the SAME TYPE of weapon, just a lower QL, so they won't be overquiped after their weapon buff wears out. But their target would be dead already before then.

Traders will be even more powerful in PvP after patch 14.2

That is why this thread is so much fun. I never seen people try to defend something they can't truly defend. You will only look and think the worst about your prof. You don't want anyone (mostly Funcom) to think that traders are good in PvP. But that is all this is about, and it's fun to watch you try and explain why traders are gimps in PvP.

Not many are going to want to duel a trader after patch 14.2 and with good reason.

I don't think Traders are gimps in PvP. I know we're a fairly decent profession when it comes to PvP. But uber? Not the profession itself but the people that carefully twinked their characters to whip your ass in gimped PvP duels.

With time to prepare before a duel, it's debateable whether or not Docs are the top PvP profession. I see where your problem is now. You rank all PvP against a ruler that works against you everytime. You're too low level to outgrow the advantage a twink trader has over you (and I specifically pointed out where the only advantage a trader has over any profession: complit buffs). And you further gimp yourself by fighting duels. With time to prepare I can beat Mike Tyson stupid. All I need is the time it takes to find the keys to my truck and start it up before I run over him

PvP changes dramatically around level 120. And it's a completely different animal when you're not agreeing to a fight in a 40m x 40m box.

[_____________Mr Bean]

Just added, only guy after 5 months I have on my list

[Vaporlok]

Hahah, wait wait.

#4 Shotgun is cheap. This is important cause they're the best guns around, even after patch 14.2. Also the vektor ND has only 1 skill req. And yes, people still have the old LLTS

Your citing all shotguns and especially Vektor ND as a factor for Traders being uber is PvP? There are only two shotguns worth weilding in PvP one of which will see its use end post 14.2. Clue: It is not a Vektor and it is not single skill. Using a Vektor in PvP makes about as much sense as your arguements.

This statement just shows you know about zilch in PvP.


edit: Ok, there are two good shotguns hehe

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Vorak
Hahah, wait wait.

#4 Shotgun is cheap. This is important cause they're the best guns around, even after patch 14.2. Also the vektor ND has only 1 skill req. And yes, people still have the old LLTS

Your citing all shotguns and especially Vektor ND as a factor for Traders being uber is PvP? There are only two shotguns worth weilding in PvP one of which will see its use end post 14.2. Clue: It is not a Vektor and it is not single skill. Using a Vektor in PvP makes about as much sense as your arguements.

This statement just shows you know about zilch in PvP.


edit: Ok, there are two good shotguns hehe

Actually I'm tired of this stupid arguement from him completely. Soldier has the same cost to raise shotgun and ability cap, I believe. Fixers have the Shotgun skill at light blue also. Since most shotguns are dependant on crit damage, the chance of which is modified by items and nanos that aren't the sole domain of traders, will someone PLEASE explain to me how everyone friggin pretends that a trader was the only person capable of wielding a shotgun effectively? Especially prior to 14.2, when all that matter was getting it equipped once?

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by Vorak
Your citing all shotguns and especially Vektor ND as a factor for Traders being uber is PvP? There are only two shotguns worth weilding in PvP one of which will see its use end post 14.2. Clue: It is not a Vektor and it is not single skill. Using a Vektor in PvP makes about as much sense as your arguements.
[/i]

It's shotguns being a cheap skill in general that overall helps. To nit-pick just one thing I said is foolish. Traders are good because of *everything* they can do put together.

Ithaca Snakemaster is crap? I don't think so... and if you still have an old LLTS, well... enough said.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Mor


It's shotguns being a cheap skill in general that overall helps. To nit-pick just one thing I said is foolish. Traders are good because of *everything* they can do put together.

Ithaca Snakemaster is crap? I don't think so... and if you still have an old LLTS, well... enough said.

Fine, then explain how a Soldier wielding an Ithica Snakemaster is any different than a Trader wielding an Ithica Snakemaster? Both have the same IP cost and skill cap.

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


Fine, then explain how a Soldier wielding an Ithica Snakemaster is any different than a Trader wielding an Ithica Snakemaster? Both have the same IP cost and skill cap.

Do soldiers debuff, root, heal as good as a trader, mez or even buff as many combat skills as the trader and have them all buffed just as much? Like I said, you can only nit-pick one part of what I said, and not even do a good job of it to boot. It's the overall power of the trader that makes him good, not any one thing.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Mor


Do soldiers debuff, root, heal as good as a trader, mez or even buff as many combat skills as the trader and have them all buffed just as much? Like I said, you can only nit-pick one part of what I said, and not even do a good job of it to boot. It's the overall power of the trader that makes him good, not any one thing.

No, a soldier cannot debuff, root, mez, heal or buff as good as I can playing a trader.

Can I as a trader taunt, deflect/reflect damage, buff hp, or cause damage in as many categories as well as a Soldier? As a Trader can I wield as many different weapons and utilize as many different special attacks as cheaply and effectively as a Soldier? OR DO I FIT IN MY FARGIN ROLE?.

Now answer the question:
How is a soldier wielding an Ithica Snakemaster any different than a Trader wielding an Ithica Snakemaster?

[_____________Mr Bean]

Kur, Word of Advise, I don't think he's going to get the Point

Like the classic Mez thing

All his comments are about PVP and how goddly Traders are there,

1. Heals are on the to be nerfed list
2. Mezs don't work in PVP
3. Anyone Can Root(feet of stone crrits ore prolonged interrgation lots of them out there)
4. Crit buffs rule PVP, without them(14.2) Thats 1 crit every 4-12 shots not every 3 or 2 as it used to be, The Ithica is a crit gun pure and simple, 100 damage don't cut it in PVP

Unless you could print that list onto a large wooden board and then repeatly beat him over the head with it I dough't he will get those 4 points

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by Mr Bean
Kur, Word of Advise, I don't think he's going to get the Point

You said you QUIT, and canceled your account. You just wanted people to feel sorry for you by saying that I guess, because you're *still here* You must really love the game you hate, given you can't seem to stay away. You made a thread just to tell people you canceled you account hoping others would too. The sad thing you don't get is, no one cares if you quit or not. People quit MMORPGs all the time, and no one gives a flying sh!t. If people care about ANYTHING, it's gettign your stuff before the door hits your azz on the way out.

Glad to give you another reality check, cause you really need them.

[Vaporlok]

Originally posted by Mor


It's shotguns being a cheap skill in general that overall helps. To nit-pick just one thing I said is foolish. Traders are good because of *everything* they can do put together.

Ithaca Snakemaster is crap? I don't think so... and if you still have an old LLTS, well... enough said.

I was refering to Krutts but I guess you don't know enough to guess right.

Second of all, ELLTSs should not be considered a Trader prof advantage. They are no longer dropping in the game. If you have one, great, otherwise it is a special advantage anyone can have.

Being cheap in shotgun (only 4 growth mind you) means Jack Squat. Post 14.2 we take two equal Traders both geared for PvP. One has equipped the highest possible Ithaca they can and the other has equipped the highest possible Nova they can squeeze into. Who is gonna win?

I just love that some smart players have chosen to use Traders as a PvP character using all the resources that Funcom has given them to create a nice PvP character....and most people don't even know how its done and why its effective

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Mor


First off, don't bring rl into it. If anyone took at shot at me in rl, would beat the living sh!t out of them. Enough said there.

Second, you said you QUIT, and canceled your account. You just wanted people to feel sorry for you by saying that I guess, because you're *still here* You must really love the game you hate, given you can't seem to stay away. You made a thread just to tell people you canceled you account hoping others would too. The sad thing you don't get is, no one cares if you quit or not. People quit MMORPGs all the time, and no one gives a flying sh!t. If people care about ANYTHING, it's gettign your stuff before the door hits your azz on the way out.

Glad to give you another reality check, cause you really need them.

Fine, I said none of the above. Now answer the question:
How is a soldier wielding an Ithica Snakemaster any different than a Trader wielding an Ithica Snakemaster?

Add to it these new questions:
Can I as a trader taunt, deflect/reflect damage, buff hp, or cause damage in as many categories as well as a Soldier? As a Trader can I wield as many different weapons and utilize as many different special attacks as cheaply and effectively as a Soldier?

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Can I as a trader taunt,

It's crap.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

deflect/reflect damage,

This is about all they got going for them. Mirror shield.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

buff hp,

It's crap.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

or cause damage in as many categories as well as a Soldier?

You mean them getting pistol in green when they just use assault rifle anyway?

I don't think you should try and say soldiers are better than traders in PvP, if that's what you are trying to say. Because everyones knows that's just not true.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Mor

It's crap.

This is about all they got going for them. Mirror shield.

It's crap.

All I did was take the arguement you're using and turn it around: took all the skills a soldier has that a trader does not and ask you about them. These are facts. You reply that most of them are all crap. These are opinions. Opinions over the value of an ability means absolutely nothing when the fact remains one person does not have the ability at all.

Originally posted by Mor

You mean them getting pistol in green when they just use assault rifle anyway?

I mean given all the weapon skills I have as a trader, the point where they cap, and the cost I pay to raise those skills doesn't the trader fall short in weapon choices and the damage those weapons will do when compared to a soldier? Shotgun is aqua (same as a Soldier, isn't it?) for a trader. Pistol is light blue. All special attacks and other weapon skills are dark blue.

So isn't it cheaper for a soldier to pick up, let's say, a Sentinels Personal Edition Assault Rifle/SMG combo? Can't the soldier do more damage with it than myself, because he can raise his Burst and Full Auto skills faster and higher than I can?

For that matter, answer the friggin question:
How is a soldier wielding an Ithica Snakemaster any different than a Trader wielding an Ithica Snakemaster?

I'll answer it for you: all critical damage modifiers being equal for the soldier and the trader, the soldier will do more damage with it simply because he can raise Flingshot faster and higher than I can (which bears a direct relation on the amount of flingshot damage you can do). It costs him less IP to meet the requirements for wielding a Snakemaster, since flingshot is a green skill for soldiers I believe, saving him IP he can distribute elsewhere. Toss in a direct AMS modifier (instead of the indirect one traders get from divest/plunder) to help with regulating damage.

Originally posted by Mor

I don't think you should try and say soldiers are better than traders in PvP, if that's what you are trying to say. Because everyones knows that's just not true.

I'm not saying that at all. I've been trying to understand why people keep saying it's true because I've never invested any time in PvP. And none of the abilities that a trader has should significantly impact a comparison of PvP performance prior to 14.2 (because anyone could permanent equip a weapon with a 1 time buff to the right skills). Divest/Plunder may keep a soldier from using TMS or HP buffs during a PvP fight. But neither strip a soldier of existing HP buffs or previously existing damage shields (TMS may be the best but you know every little bit counts). So, you've got a captive audience. Explain

[_____________Mr Bean]

Kuro he was talking to me and I think you got that, just trying to get the point across to you that psyical violance might be the only way for him to see reality

Let me share with you a link of somone else in your postion if not back-ground
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/
The man there is has a Mastery in Enegering and loves Star Wars, put two and two togther and he decided in his free time to set up a website on if Modern Physiscts where applyed to SW and thus his site resoulted, But before him along came a bunch of Star Trek Fannicts who ran a few of there own websites and attacked him, Well he defend himself and won, And agian and agian they send people at him so to speak to try and challange his logic. Except for a few people
(http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Rich.html) they mostly admited they where wrong. But hey don't take my word for it check the site, He also has a nice section on Logic flaws I use from time to time to run across this web board

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...ebating-1.html
I've commited most of it to memeory lets run one of Mor's post through the Logic Filiter

Hers an old one, I'll box in the specfic errors

No it's not, I explained that the debuffs will be deadly, but you ignore it.

#1 Debuffs. After patch 14.2 you will not be able to do anything worth a damn against a trader[Hasty Generalization]. Not only is your weapon not going to be way overequiped[Leap in Logic], but they will debuff you into nothing when it comes to dealing them damage.

#2 Heals.[Leap in Logic] Do you really need this explained to you? Oh great... now that we can do so little damage to them, they will still be able to heal what little we can do.

#3 Roots[Stating the Obvious]. The ability to root and use ranged together is a powerful combo.

#4 Shotgun skill is green[Outright Lie]. This is important cause they're the best guns around, even after patch 14.2. Also the vektor ND has only 1 skill req. And yes, people still have the old LLTS

#5 Buffing combat skills. They can still be gods even if it only last about as long as a duel... And if for whatever reason it don't at that time, they can always change the weapon.

Traders will be gods with the same overquiped weapon, another weapon to fall back on[,Leap in Logic] debuffs, heals[ Leap in Logic]and root. [False Cause]


Mr Bean (gay name by the way)[The Ad Hominem Attack], don't act retarded. You trying to say traders are not great in PvP, is like saying the sun is the color purple and the grass is red. No one is going to believe you unless they are retarded as well[The Ad Hominem Attack]

Thanks to Mike Wong for that page I don't use it as often as I should

Present in that Mor Quote where
The Ad Hominem Attack
The Ad Hominem attack focuses on the man, not the argument.(aka Flaming but you use it to ignore a point)

False Cause
This is actually a whole family of fallacies, in which A is incorrectly assumed to cause B. For example:
"Within ten years after the widespread appearance of TV in any country, the murder rate doubles. This proves that television causes violence, not firearms proliferation or socio-economic disparities."

Hasty Generalization
The hasty generalization is the use of an unacceptably small sample as the basis of a conclusion about the larger population

Leap in Logic
The leap in logic jumps from A to B even though there is no connecting linkage between the two. Also known as "non sequitur", ie- "does not follow".

Well there you go let me borrow Mor favorite phrase

End of Story

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

For that matter, answer the friggin question:
How is a soldier wielding an Ithica Snakemaster any different than a Trader wielding an Ithica Snakemaster?

The biggest difference of all comes from what the classes themselves can do. Trader can buff all the req of the gun, use debuffs (will be overpowered patch 14.2), heals (heals are powerful after damage was reduced by 50%) and root.

If a trader debuffs a doc or NT, they are in trouble as it is now. After patch 14.2, pet classes will be in trouble (understatement) and the damage melee and ranged classes will do will become even *less* since they will force everyone into an overquiped character even when they're not. Think about that, not being overquiped is alot as it stands now, then doing even less damage to a trader because he forces your skills down, that reduces the damage by forcing you into OE and lowering your skills.

Example of the problems for pet classes: not only will an engineers pet become useless after the debuff, but a trader can also root the pet as well. Explain how an engineer would have any chance whatsoever to kill a trader. It just won't happen ever. This is just an example of a single prof, when all will have problems with the trader prof.

I mean wtf? Traders should keep their mouths shut while the engineers complain a bit, they at least have a reason too.

What tops it all off, is some traders like yourself b!tch and cry like Funcom has destroyed the trader prof.

Mr Bean is the perfect example of a loser that keeps coming back for more. He said he quit AO and displayed his account as being canceled yet... hes still here lol. Maybe he likes AO after all, and just wanted to post a anti-funcom thread to cry and b!tch hoping someone will feel sorry for him. I guess he learned, no one really cares.

[_____________Mr Bean]

For the Ill-informed here I here till July then I'm gone, just cause somone clicks Cancel does not mean poof /delete all chars instatly happens

Still got two months to sell my Chars on Ebay

Just kidding I despise Ebays except the money sellers(Though I've never done it myself I can understand the rich SOB's wanting to be Rich SOBs in game, its only natural, We call it Capitalism here in the States )

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Mor

The biggest difference of all comes from what the classes themselves can do. Trader can buff all the req of the gun, use debuffs (will be overpowered patch 14.2), heals (heals are powerful after damage was reduced by 50%) and root.

A trader can only buff/debuff base weapon skills. Special attack skills are untouched by ransack/deprive. Which also means the damage done by those attacks are untouched as well. The Trader profession has a varied selection of abilities, that's no lie. But those abilities aren't unique and are balanced by using being lesser versions of shared ability and requiring payment from the caster. An NT can also root and calm. Do you complain about their ability to nuke and HE? Counting something everyone known as bugged as an advantage is stupid because everyone also knows the bug will get fixed. And on the team heal issue I had no problem with the bugs getting fixed. My problem resided in the nerf that was coming with it so Doctor team healing could stand out more.

As for debuffs people using hybrid weapons (weapons that require 2 base weapon skills like SMG/Assault Rifle) are more vulnerable to debuffs because the debuff is across the board. Weapons requiring a single skill aren't nearly as vulnerable as you might believe though...

Originally posted by Mor

If a trader debuffs a doc or NT, they are in trouble as it is now. After patch 14.2, pet classes will be in trouble (understatement) and the damage melee and ranged classes will do will become even *less* since they will force everyone into an overquiped character even when they're not. Think about that, not being overquiped is alot as it stands now, then doing even less damage to a trader because he forces your skills down, that reduces the damage by forcing you into OE and lowering your skills.

When the OE changes were first announced, I did some number crunching with my level 73 Trader. I only needed Shotgun Expertise to meet the base weapon skill requirement on my shottie at the time and was having no trouble soloing yellow to orange mobs (oranges gave me trouble in packs). If I encountered a mirror image of myself in PvP, getting hit successfully with the highest ransack nano I could execute unbuffed and the highest deprive I could execute, I'd only fall into the -20% OE range. After missing nearly 50% of the weapon skill required to wield the weapon. That character had Shotgun, Psymod, and T&S maxed with Shotgun fully implanted. I think you can still find the actual numbers, QL, and exact nanos used posted somewhere on the forums during an arguement with Garzu over the same thing.

Moreover, it's a fallacy that most traders will continue to Ransack/Deprive a person beyond the first combo. Ransack and Deprive both have 6 second recharges which are uneffected by nanoint. So each execution means at least 7 seconds of doing nothing (assuming the trader has enough nanoinit to reduce execution to 1 second). And even Garzu had to admit that nanoresist does work better than he thought against the 190% resistable Ransack/Plunder lines.

Originally posted by Mor

Example of the problems for pet classes: not only will an engineers pet become useless after the debuff, but a trader can also root the pet as well. Explain how an engineer would have any chance whatsoever to kill a trader. It just won't happen ever. This is just an example of a single prof, when all will have problems with the trader prof.

I mean wtf? Traders should keep their mouths shut while the engineers complain a bit, they at least have a reason too.

What tops it all off, is some traders like yourself b!tch and cry like Funcom has destroyed the trader prof.

First let's expose a little truth here. You say Engineer in your example in order to misdirect people into thinking you're the Player's Champion. I believe you've stated you play a Crat, somewhere around level 40 if I remember correctly. At least be honest and say "Ransack/Deprive will hurt ME a lot".

Further, Engineers are a poor class to use as an example. Their pets existed until dismissed or killed. Essentially making it so that an MP's Mochams gave them a permanent pet much higher in level than themselves while severly lacking the skill required to keep the pet. The Crat's ability to overequip their pet via a Mochams was somewhat more restrained by the time limit on the pet's duration.

[__________PaulyShore]

Originally posted by Mor

I mean wtf? Traders should keep their mouths shut while the engineers complain a bit, they at least have a reason too.

I want to solo ql160 missions at lvl100 too. *sheds a tear*

Hmmm... PvP... PvM... PvP... PvM

[_________________Mor]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


The Trader profession has a varied selection of abilities, that's no lie.

Just took you awhile to grasp that. And I'm sure you know it's why they're good in PvP. The problem is patch 14.2 and the affect of debuffs.

Originally posted by Kuroshio


An NT can also root and calm. Do you complain about their ability to nuke and HE?

Ok lets put a NT versus trader, NT gets debuffed, takes damage and has no heals. If he tries to run, he gets rooted. Hmmm next question: Why compare them? Do you really think NTs are better than traders? Would you like Funcom to make the trader prof more powerful so it can compete with NTs?

Originally posted by Kuroshio


And on the team heal issue I had no problem with the bugs getting fixed.

Then stop your b!thcing.

Originally posted by Kuroshio


First let's expose a little truth here. You say Engineer in your example in order to misdirect people into thinking you're the Player's Champion. I believe you've stated you play a Crat, somewhere around level 40 if I remember correctly. At least be honest and say "Ransack/Deprive will hurt ME a lot".

First off, I don't play a crat. Been playing since beta and I never even bothered to try one (not even once). So if all you can do is make up stories of me being a low level crat (lol), then it just goes to show you have no valid points to make.

Second is, you avoid the question of how a Engineer has any chance in PvP against a trader because, you know they have zero chance. So in a way you answered it by avoiding the question.