SL Slayer Bot performance Stats

[Rustybolts]

Originally posted by Letah


if you read the last paragraph of my biggest post you see I compare my stats with that of Octo (with a SL bot). As I also said in my thread (did you read it fully?) engies do great dmg with the 200 pet already, which prolly makes engies with SL pets happy too fast thinking they do a lot dmg while they already did without knowing.

Once again, you're not dumping raw pet pet damage, ever, at any point in your "tests". If you want to argue that we're doing more than enough damage as is, fine, that's your opinion. But you have yet to dump the raw damage numbers of different pets on control mobs.

SL Slayers, are doing less damage over time than their 200 Guardian counterpart. Simple fact. We are NOT measuring the engineers weapon damage. We are NOT measuring our damage+Slayer+Dog VS other profs. We ARE measuring SL bots raw damage in comparision to 200 slayers.

Dog+Slayer dumps are worthwhile in determining which combo will put the best damage together for us. From my reading so far, it would seem to be 211 dog and the Guardian together for max damage output from an engi.

Relevent test for this thread include, but are not limited to, avg min damage of the slayers, min damage of the dogs, damage range on hecklers and SL uniques if they the bots break minimum. Damage dumps of Guardians and SL bots versus the same mobs. Damage dumps of successive dogs vs the same mobs.

Damage dumps of the pets against 210 and 230 hecklers are of particular interest to me as I feel that is where it will really matter most when we are using the bots. The only place that the 220 bots are likely to be used is at major raids in Pandemonium and possibly inferno. It may show up on RK ocasionally, but it'll likely only be for major raids. All this sums up to meaning, that extreme high AC mobs are where the performance matters most, and so far they are severely underperforming on those mobs.

[Highorbit]

Two entirely seperate issues, linked only because they relate to damage.

Forgive me if I seem to think it's pretty bad that upgrading my slayer reduces its damage, reduces its HP, and increases its cast requirement dramatically. Sorry some of the other people haven't noticed it yet.

[Gelanin]

Originally posted by Highorbit
Two entirely seperate issues, linked only because they relate to damage.

Forgive me if I seem to think it's pretty bad that upgrading my slayer reduces its damage, reduces its HP, and increases its cast requirement dramatically. Sorry some of the other people haven't noticed it yet.

Agreed, and if that is actually the case, (that the new slayers do less damage than the old 200 slayer), then that is sad for engineers, and you have my sympathy for that, but in my honest opinion, we cannot forget about the overall balance issue.

And if i only look from a overall-damage-balance perspective, engineers seems to do very well, infact they seem to be among top 3 damage dealers, while Soldiers, NT's, Agents and others seems to struggle to keep up.

In the examples i provided myself, i do feel that the test subjects have had fairly high standards for equipment.

If i take myself as an example, i'm using a D-Chest, Might of the Revenant, 2x Aruls and a JEPP + RoP.

The weak spot in my setup is my RoP, which could be changed with a JSPP, Flux or Argent blaster for more damage. But other than that, i feel there really isnt alot more i could do to increase my damage, except Robust Backpack, and spending loads of perks in Pistol Mastery.

The soldier i mentioned in my last Damage Dump, was a soldier using a spazzmodic, which is one of the top Guns.

So in some of these cases, there doesnt seem to be alot left to do to optimise damage-output.


I think possibly one of the better ways to "solve" this issue, is with giving the new slayers more HP, since that wouldnt change the damage-part of the balancing issue, but would let the slayers have a longer life-span which seems to be one of the major issues mentioned on the board.

Increasing damage even further, could imho just lead to a very unbalanced game, where balance issues would be at the forefront, instead of game-content.

Have a nice day :-)

-Gelanin

[Highorbit]

Hah I'm probably going to get flamed for this But here is my part of the whole damage balance discussion since you keep hammering on about it.

This is incidently aside from the point that the old RK bots are higher damage than the new SL ones. That I consider a bug or at the very least a major issue.

In my opinion - important bit because my opinion doesn't necessarily reflect the opinion of the Engineer Community or the Professionals or anyone else. Just me.

I'm a bit unsure where our (the Engineer) profession resides at the moment. We don't really have much of a definate place in the scheme of things. The same can be said for Fixers it seems so I'm sure we're far from alone.

Now it gets tricky. With the change in format of the new pets (medium damage / high HP changes to high damage / low HP) our position seems to be higher up on the damage scale along with some of the other squishy professions like NT, Agent and Shade. However, since we're a bit more capable on the defensive side we don't belong right at the top.

However, I do think we should be considerably outdamaging Adventurers, Docs, MPs, Enforcers, and even Soldiers purely because of the defensive capabilities of those professions.

For a quick look at each of those, and feel free to add or remove bits I've missed or got wrong:

NT - Should be very high damage from nukes. Has highly limited defensive capabilities. Somewhat effective Calms and Roots, although these are only semi-effective at most in SL.

Agent - Should be very high weapon damage. Has limited defensive capabilities, mainly those of other professions using Mimic.

Adventurer - Second best healing profession. Has access to both Acrobat and Bio Shielding. Has a calm of limited functionality. Has access to nanos that boost HP (in most cases highly temporarily) and a variety of Nanos and Combinations of nanos to boost the professions skill set.

Doctor - Specialist Healer, thrives in a team but much harder solo.

Enforcer - The highest HP of all professions. Access to the Bio Shielding line further augments this. Primary tank profession equipped with a variety of taunts.

MP - Changed a lot recently. Highly capable, versatile profession armed with a heal pet. Mez pet that can be used for limited crowd control or damage reduction. Currently very very very high damage especially when using Pets, Nukes and Weapons.

Soldiers - Probably should be medium to high damage potential. Has access to one of the most powerful defensive nanos - Total Mirror Shield. Secondary or Tertiary tank profession. Has access to both taunts and detaunts for aggro control.

Engineers - Main source of Damage is pets. Has access to Bio Shielding, but very low HP and very bad Evades. Has access to up to 24% reflect and the highest AC buffs. Semi-Effective crowd control for the lower range of mobs.

[Martinn]

Since you love damagedumps so much i'd like to turn the tables a bit.

Honeeeey 212 MP / XP pistols + Nukes (black pet) : 850k dmg
Oceng 210 Engie / Fluxes / spec3(!): 820k dmg
Vhir 214 Doc / Pensive+Pillow + DOT's: 740k dmg
TheRealJacky 218 NT (spec3) / RB: 720k dmg
Svulst 211 Soldier / JAME: 650k dmg
???? 210 Enforcer / FBR: 580k dmg

Looking at this list i would say 2 changes are needed: Docs need a nerf and nt's need a boost. NT's are supposed to be the top damagedealer, yet this nt does even less damage than the doc. The doc is supposed to be a healmonkey with low damage output, yet he outdamages nt's soldiers and enfs. If this is a accurate representation of the damageoutput of the 6 above professions, docs are seriously overpowered since they have both the best heals and very high damageoutput (+UBT).

Compare this with the damagedump done by Octo where the doc does crap damage.

638K - 214 eng with 213 slayer and 211 dog
317K - 204 Adventurer with JEPP
309K - 215 Soldier with Aug Hellspinner
265K - 213 Enforcer with EoT
229K - 209 crat with regular RK pet (no charmed pet)
105K - 210 Doc with Maw

Whats the correct damageoutput of the doc? Is octos doc just a gimp or?

Damagedumps dont say much about the profession as a whole and their possibilities, just what one specific char did on one specific mob. But if you want to make a general scale i would be very disappointed if engis didnt outdamage docs, soldiers or enfs over time.

In your post you also state that you cant use a weapon because of heals+dot+UBT. Thats not correct. You can use weapons while the nano recharges and use specials during casting. Ideally a fast weapon with fast recharge on specials (Ex. fbr). Now maybe you do more damage with a better dot than with a weapon, but thats not so easy to say without testing. There are pretty wide gaps between dots so what happens when the pensive are not enough to bridge that gap? I'm not really interested in that test, but the point is dont make general assumptions based on a single case.

What is interesting, and what this thread really is about is the fact that the ql200 bot outperforms the ql209 bot both on dealing damage and ability to take damage. If the same applied to docs your sl heals would look something like this:
Lifegiving elexir (714/786 MM/BM) : 693-1283 HP.
Cellular recuperation (1087 MM/BM) : 393-793 HP.
(Assuming more or less same cast time).
There is only 1 test in this thread describing this trend. Thats highorbits test using a ql200 and a ql209 slayer with equal buffs/trimmers on the same mob.

I have a feeling that our bots are intentionally sucky as tanks to limit our soloability. The higher zones in SL seems to be team only.

[issac]

I for one find this all a little bit disconserting

I find it odd that we need spec 4 and level 201 for the 201 bot.

I'm starting to believe that the damage issue of the higher bots,201+, has to be a gameplay issue.At the very least a bug.

But what really bothers me is that what made me an engy ,A very nasty,big as i can pop out and control bot, becomes a shadow of the damage dealer he once was as I level .So my goal ,it seems, is to bust my but to level to do LESS damage and be less effective to a team .

Im hoping this wont take as long to correct.... yes correct because it's a flaw no matter how you slice it, as it did the engy pathing issues .How long did Pet warp take a year? 18 months?

As always i appreciate the info i glean form this forum and the "uber"type Engys.

Issac 195 and why bother for 200 Engineer lol

[Gelanin]

Originally posted by Highorbit
Adventurer - Second best healing profession. Has access to both Acrobat and Bio Shielding. Has a calm of limited functionality. Has access to nanos that boost HP (in most cases highly temporarily) and a variety of Nanos and Combinations of nanos to boost the professions skill set.

Engineers - Main source of Damage is pets. Has access to Bio Shielding, but very low HP and very bad Evades. Has access to up to 24% reflect and the highest AC buffs. Semi-Effective crowd control for the lower range of mobs.

Not going to comment on the other professions, but i'll add a few comments on Advs, since that is what i play myself.

Advs are no longer the second-best healing profession, MP's are currently better.

We do have access to both bio-shielding and acrobat lines, and yes we do have some calms that as you say, are of limited use.

We do not have access to nanos that boosts HP, unless you are thinking of Pit Lizards + Kin of Tarrasque, which i've yet to see anyone use. Mostly because its a pain to use, because it makes it impossible to see properly. Also, its very unpopular with other professions.

We can boost our pistol/1HE skills and multi-ranged/melee, other than that, we're fairly limited to what skills we can boost.


On your engi comments, i wouldnt exactly classify Engi's as "very low" on HP, but definately not a profession with loads of hp
You do have a nice pistol buff (i love it ) , though you do not have a 1he buff.



All in all, i guess it depends where everyone feel that different professions should be damage wise.

Personally i do not think that Engi's should be higher on the damage-dealing front than Soldiers, but that is just my opinion on it, not sure what FunCom's opinion on it is. I do know they have said that Adventurers should be around 4'thish.

Personally i think my list would be somewhere along this line, but i havent really made up my mind yet :-)

NT/Agent/MA
Soldier
Others

[Highorbit]

Fair enough, I was thinking of the pit lizard things, but if they're not useful then that's understandable. I was just amazed the first time I saw them when looking at nanos for my adventurer.

While I know MPs are very very effective healers now I hadn't quite realised that it has escalated to surpass Adventurers as well.

In terms of boosting abilities I was more refering to damage, especially some of the new (admitedly very high level nanos) like Calia's Anatomy: Sabretooth etc etc. There's also a pretty large HP boost built into Calia's Anatomy: Pit Lizard, but that runs into exactly the same view problems and is very probably either on the end of self-cast or something that requires outside buffs - so dimished in usefulness.

Very low HP refers to its dark blue state, in that regard the same as NTs and MPs at the very least. Given that it is that colour the increase going forward is rather low. I don't know how other professions compare, but I can expect, maybe with a bit of luck and some very good items, to hit 10k at level 220.

Soldiers are in a bit of a state of change, the new weapons need to be made much more easily available for that to be evaluated properly.

[jalapeno]

Originally posted by Zane0
Using this info, we can generally say that as bots raise in QL, they get less HP, less attack speed, and virtually no increase in minimum damage.. all for much higher reqs! Only engineers under FC's watchful eye get less powerful as they level up! *Sigh* Doesn't it figure?

By the way 'Orb, there have been words about how the higher Slayers are much poorer at drawing aggro from players. Perhaps on top of this, our agressiveness trimmer doesn't work on SL bots either? At least the divert trimmers work, too bad they're the least effective of the three.

FC: FIX FIX FIX!!!!11

Can either high orbit or CZ check with funcome if this is what they intended or it's a bug please? If this is what funcom intended, than I think I will quit being an engi, probably ao as well... and I'l probably ask around in MMORPG.com see if there is another game that would allow player to "raise in QL, they get less HP, less attack speed, and virtually no increase in minimum damage.. all for much higher reqs!"

[Letah]

Martinn, a doc can't heal fully when using DOT's, also all the DOT's need spec4 and at least around lvl 212. The doc in Octo's team prolly wasnt 212+ or had spec4, or just was too busy healing. Throw in a MP in a team with the charmpet and a doc nearly doesn't need to heal and we can aim more at DOT's.

Our DOT's aren't overpowered, it are the best "weapons" for a doctor; many professions yet have to find their best "weapon" like a rifle, s.m.g. etc. RB isnt a lvl 218 NT nuke. Spec4 NT's OD doc's by a *lot*.

Back to topic, an engie already is in the top #3 damage dealers with a 200 pet; we know that by now. *if* Funcom wants Engies to stay that way (top 3) the new pets should grant them a top 3 place comparing to agents with the new rifle, NT's uses spec4 nukes etc etc.

imo thats the *only* way to adjust damage, not just looking at yourself and comparing pets with eachother - its the bigger picture that counts after all.

[Highorbit]

How is comparing the pets to each other unimportant?

Surely you wouldn't use a heal or a weapon on blind faith that it'd be better purely because the QL is higher?

I dunno, perhaps you would?

So I'm sorry, but comparing the primary profession weapon to the other primary weapons we have is vitally important. Especially when the tests show that there is no gain at all - no advantage at all to using those new weapons, in fact it's detrimental to your performance to use these pets at least up to the untested 213 bot.

You can't honestly tell me that you, or anyone else has never compared one weapon to another, one heal to another, etc etc etc.

Perhaps I should make this really clear as one last point. I am not asking for our bots to be made uber, I am not asking to have some insurmountable damage level that no one at all will come close to.

What I am asking is that our new pets, these pets with so high requirements, that require so much camping are an actual upgrade over the old Guardian we've had for years, that when levelling I can do more than upgrade my Flux pistol and make people bracelets.

[jalapeno]

Hey High Orbit, you are the professional here, so can you please see if you can ask FC whether it is intended or it's a bug? Surely you can talk to FC? no?

I am sorry to bug you, but I pump hrs and hrs of my time and my energy to my engi, I love this character... I really hate to see it has no future...

Please?

[Highorbit]

Originally posted by Phatpanda
Hey High Orbit, you are the professional here, so can you please see if you can ask FC whether it is intended or it's a bug? Surely you can talk to FC? no?

I am sorry to bug you, but I pump hrs and hrs of my time and my energy to my engi, I love this character... I really hate to see it has no future...

Please?

They're looking into it. Which could mean anything at all.

[Martinn]

Originally posted by Letah
Martinn, a doc can't heal fully when using DOT's, also all the DOT's need spec4 and at least around lvl 212. The doc in Octo's team prolly wasnt 212+ or had spec4, or just was too busy healing. Throw in a MP in a team with the charmpet and a doc nearly doesn't need to heal and we can aim more at DOT's.

Originally posted by Martinn

Damagedumps dont say much about the profession as a whole and their possibilities, just what one specific char did on one specific mob.

If you had read the post i didnt start a nerf docs thread. I simply used your own logic on docs using the same damagedumps. And showed you (by comparing 2 damagedumps) the obvious flaw in such tests.

Originally posted by Letah

Back to topic, an engie already is in the top #3 damage dealers with a 200 pet; we know that by now. *if* Funcom wants Engies to stay that way (top 3) the new pets should grant them a top 3 place comparing to agents with the new rifle, NT's uses spec4 nukes etc etc.

imo thats the *only* way to adjust damage, not just looking at yourself and comparing pets with eachother - its the bigger picture that counts after all.

The topic is the relative power of SL slayers vs a 200 slayer, so you are off topic but nm that.

Using the tests supplied by Highorbit we can safely say that with spec4 and a 209 bot + dog the damage would be more or less the same as without spec4. 209 slayer does less damage than the 200, but the higher ql dog does more than the 180. Comparing this with a few chars in a specific situation in a specific team that are not using their top weapons/nukes are at best uninteresting. The best you can do with a damagedump is compare 2 selfbuffed lvl 220 chars with all the top gear you can possibly get. I have yet to see that test.

The bigger picture is yet unknown, but i expect a nano that needs 680 more points in MC/TS to be better than the other. This very very simple sentence is all this thread is about. How is it possible that this extremely simple thing is so impossible to understand?

[jalapeno]

hmm I used to work at customer service related area...and I know too well what "looking into it means"..

It's almost works the same way as public inquiries in Canada...

but thanks you've done your best. I am very greatful for all the works you have done for the engi community. I've learn alot from your guides. So thank you again. Merci, gracias, donka,

I'd recommand everyone that is serious about their engi char write a letter of inquiry to FC every 2 days or so...it make actually shorten the process by 1 yr

[Krabbus]

I tried the Slayerdroid Annihilator today, finally got spec4

I wanted to try it against a 210 Heckler in Adonis, solo. It did well, at least I won I had a bit trouble with agro but think I forgot to buff it with observiant now and then, although it could take the beating from a 210 heckler at least. I had to heal it though...


To bad he only hit for the same as Guardian Now, I want to fix my Trimmer - Divert Energy to Avoidance to buff the right evade, DuckEvade instead of PoisonAC.

May we have this fixed now, it's been like this beta of AO!!!

[Gelanin]

Originally posted by Martinn
Using the tests supplied by Highorbit we can safely say that with spec4 and a 209 bot + dog the damage would be more or less the same as without spec4. 209 slayer does less damage than the 200, but the higher ql dog does more than the 180. Comparing this with a few chars in a specific situation in a specific team that are not using their top weapons/nukes are at best uninteresting.

If you include the test/damage dump i posted, which was an engi with 209 slayer and 207 dog, he outdamaged a MA, and a Soldier using a spazzmodic, which is arguably one of the top guns for a soldier. Also outdamaged myself, which is using JEPP, which also is arguably the best pistol availible for ranged adventurers.

So claiming those dumps uninteresting, i'll have to disagree with, but i agree that they are not the answer to everything, but they do give some information on how engineers perform in the bigger picture (when it comes to damage).

The engineer in my example above was Vorteks. Not sure what pistols he were using, nor if he was trying to maximize his damage, but he did outdamage everyone who was in that team.

I have no idea how he would have performed using a 200 slayer and 207 dog, but i guess that could be interresting to know.

Anyways, i'm not out to nerf or critizise anyone, but i hope we can try to be reasonable enough to get things that must be fixed, like game bugs, and some important balance issues.


I can however well understand the frustration of a QL201-205 pet being supposedly worse than a QL200 one, and you have my sympaties for that.

[Highorbit]

201 - 209 inclusive :-p

The balance discussion is an important one, but our position really needs clarifying. Until I know exactly where we're supposed to be in the scheme of things it's a bit difficult to have that conversation.

If that position is standing in West Athen only doing trade skills then I don't really see the point.

[pirlouit]

This night on 2 boss in penumbra temple for amu.

MP212 with pet201
Me with pet slayer 209 and dog 207 (all buff on and trimer on too execpt SOS)

MP : 90k (bow sprit 208) + 245k from pet => 335k
Me : 110k (Solar+Flux 268) + 95k from doggy and 115k from Slayer => 320k

~ Same domage but : i do ~ same damage like my Slayer 209 !!! BUT before i used slayer 200 and my slayer 200 make about 50/90% more damage than me.

[Krabbus]

hmm, is our new SL pets missing the double hits????