SL Slayer Bot performance Stats

[Gelanin]

Well, there should be a fairly easy way of getting actuall numbers here, just agree to meet at a spesific time/place and then do certain mobs multiple times while running AODD.

In my limited experience teaming with Engineers, Engineers do VERY nice damage and almost always ending up among the top 2 damage-dealers in a team.

[Highorbit]

Originally posted by Gelanin
Well, there should be a fairly easy way of getting actuall numbers here, just agree to meet at a spesific time/place and then do certain mobs multiple times while running AODD.

In my limited experience teaming with Engineers, Engineers do VERY nice damage and almost always ending up among the top 2 damage-dealers in a team.

Which is what I did and what the results I posted state

[Gelanin]

Originally posted by Highorbit


Which is what I did and what the results I posted state

ah, i ment like get yourself, Octo, Vorteks and some other high-lvl engineers in the same team, and then do the tests with all the different bots/dogs you are able to cast.

And if you throw in non engi aswell, you can get a reference point to compare the damage engi's do to other professions.

Atm, i think engi's comes out very well compared to other professions, atleast other non-pet professions.

[Highorbit]

To what end?

Our damage is good in general terms. This problem isn't about our overall damage but an issue with the pets themselves.

Balancing damage between professions is a horrible task, deciding if the result is good or bad is again not pleasant. Especially since balance isn't made by damage alone, it should include the mix of offensive and defensive abilities.

I'll measure against an MP pet because I'm curious, but what the results would actually mean is debatable. In theory you could remove the dog and engi weapon damage to account for an MPs nukes and weapon damage. Then if the Slayer is outdamaged there is a bit of a problem since the MP still has the Heal Pet and Mez Pet tools to play with. Still the results would be subject to endless debate and only good as a point of interest.

Specifically relating to the pets the issue I have is that my gimpy old Slayer Guardian is out performing way too many of the new SL pets.

Dogs are additional damage so they're nice, but you can cancel elements out against each other until you're only left with the relative power of the Slayers themselves.

That is remove the dog pet from all since it would make the same amount of damage in each case. Take away weapon damage, while it wouldn't be the same variables for that are completely expected depending on the character set up.

[Rustybolts]

That's exactly what Highorbit did Gel. Compared various lvl slayers. I do however now see one flaw in your test HighOrbit. You need to run the identical test with all the bots fully buffed. Omni-Pol, SoToS, Humble Servent, Divert to Offense and positive agressive defensive, while using Decon.

Unless you do the test in this manner, it won't simulate real combat because in real combat you'll be using every one of these buffs.

For reference, we need to have the same Engi run Decon every time so that there is no discrepency on the AC's it sucks away. Also, we'll need to be 100% sure that the identical QL trimmers are being used to eliminate any possibility of argument about validity from Octo :P

If you rerun the tests that way, and still get the large discrepency of damage toward the Guardian, then we will really have a major problem. (and I think you'll find that's just the case)

[Rustybolts]

Oh yeah, almost forgot. We need 2 things for this thread, more data, especially from higher end bots, and sticky :P



/me roots hard for his first ever sticky thread :P

[Octo]

This is the only dump I got saved atm:

Against 2 pokemons (Toss & Shake ql195 Heckler boss) these where the numbers:

638K - 214 eng with 213 slayer and 211 dog
317K - 204 Adventurer with JEPP
309K - 215 Soldier with Aug Hellspinner
265K - 213 Enforcer with EoT
229K - 209 crat with regular RK pet (no charmed pet)
105K - 210 Doc with Maw

So, why it is that I do twice the amount of damage than those in my teams and you do half the damage of the ones in your team, is just beyond me.


As said, Im gonna save the dumps I do next time I SK.

[Highorbit]

Trimmers were all the same with the exception of the Positive Trimmer Cogs used on his pet, however, it didn't have any effect on the bots performance. I could re-run using my trimmer on that pet too perhaps, but the results would be no different.

SotOS and Intrusive Aura were excluded because they can be applied to any pet. The 209 bot was already hitting for more than minimum damage, but in the same way the damage of those bots would increase the Guardian can be made to hit for 1k+ per hit.

Basically, the damage difference as it stands is way too large for those buffs to be the sole reason for the low performance of the SL bots.

Omni-Pol was included on all bots because without them the Guardian would have had a horrible time hitting anything.

Deconstruction was not included, although it would provide an increase in performance for the SL bots its short duration (25 seconds) and shouldn't be required to make the pets work effectively. Certainly Deconstruction would have to provide a substantial increase in damage for something like Slayer Annihilator which is playing catch up in terms of damage from the start.

Additional testing is of course still welcome though and if anyone fancies having a little get together we can throw endless amounts of bots at Hecklers and really scare the inhabitants of Adonis.

Edit: These are effectively highly simplified tests. Including other professions (for example) introduces a lot of new variables, especially given weapon availability.

[Letah]

I do about 50-100% more damage then a/the "204 JEPP Adventurer" (because I know who that is ) and more or less am on par with 205-210 NT's chaining RB. I usually also was on par with MP's (Honeeeey in this cast, 212 MP with spec4) unless she also chain-nuked; then she'd OD me by quiet a lot.

Handy thing of my damage is, is that it's always the same; DOT's are irrelevant to what lvl or what AC's the mob have so they make an exellent comparrising tool to check with other peoples' damage. Here's the avg result of about 12 hours straight "heckling" in Inferno (230 hecklers) - on average these statistics always popped out:

Honeeeey 212 MP / XP pistols + Nukes (black pet) : 850k dmg
Oceng 210 Engie / Fluxes / spec3(!): 820k dmg
Vhir 214 Doc / Pensive+Pillow + DOT's: 740k dmg
TheRealJacky 218 NT (spec3) / RB: 720k dmg
Svulst 211 Soldier / JAME: 650k dmg
???? 210 Enforcer / FBR: 580k dmg

Above *always* was the order; sometimes Jacky a bit lower when he afk-ed ( ), sometimes Svulst had lucky FA's and ended up in the top-3 nearly. Honeeeey pretty much always was the dmg dealer #1 when she used her nukes; if she didnt Oceng would OD her and take place #1, thats with spec3 !! Saying that Honeeeey did low dmg for a MP isn't true; She did try her max best to do the most damage, and it was impressive.

The soldier and enf switched weapons to try do more damage but above ended up being the best (Svulst tried them soldier pistols), The enf tried out FBR and EQB but FBR ended up being slightly better. The Engie however unexpectadetly absolotely rocked, we all commented him about it after our 12 hour session.

You must know we did 2 Heckler spots that day (in the NW area), every time one area was cleared I resetted AODD and pasted the results. We were all in a constant fight for best damage.

Nevertheless it was always the MP and Engie at top and the NT and me fighting for place 3. I'd hate to see the day (thats a lie, id love to ) Oceng gets spec4 (or maybe he got it by now).

I cherish that day with 700k SK more, it was a good day (AODD works wonders for team effieciency). Later on Soalitis joined in with the spec4 cratpet and a nice pet; He'd end up doing around 1mill dmg compared to above statistics. 45% of that was the charmed pet, 45% was himself (weaps+nukes) and the puny rest was the cratpet. Impressive damage combined ,though. Sadly total damage output lowered because I can't DOT when stacking occurs

I look forward testing again with the SL slayers in my team; but are you sure the "I OD everyone" comes from your new pet or just the fact that engies do impressive damage without already? I don't know, but looking at the damage Octo did compared to the rest of that team I'm not too impressed if I compare it with Oceng and the lvl 200 slayer. At pockebosses I usually also do double the dmg output of the rest of the team simple because I don't have to deal with target AC's. It's of course a wild guess and does not have a strong basis but looking at Octo's and my stats Octo doesn't seem to do a lot more damage then Oceng. This is only very hypothetical of course; best would be to team with my husband in inferno

edit: fixed Honeeeey's amount of e's

[Highorbit]

Would like to see Oceng's damage compared to an engi using the level 209 bot.

Oceng should be outdamaging it by quite a large amount (with only spec 3).

[Gelanin]

Originally posted by Letah
I do about 50-100% more damage then a/the "204 JEPP Adventurer" (because I know who that is )

Heh, you sure do know ;P, but there is a slight difference to the numbers you have when you've teamed with me and the numbers in the example above, and that is a difference in about 300-400 in attack rating, which has a fairly large effect on my damage-output, since with 1600+ AR (which i had on pocketbosses) almost all my FA's did 10k+ damage, while on a mob like LOTV, where i know you ran AODD, i never got more than 2K FA damage :-)

Anyways, i teamed on inferno hecklers today a bit, and in general the results were as follows:

#1 - Engi (209 + 207 dog)
#2 - MA
#3 - Solly with Spass
#4 - Adv with Jepp + Adv with 2xGelid
#5 - Enf

[Martinn]

Originally posted by Letah

Honeeeey 212 MP / XP pistols + Nukes (black pet) : 850k dmg
Oceng 210 Engie / Fluxes / spec3(!): 820k dmg
Vhir 214 Doc / Pensive+Pillow + DOT's: 740k dmg
TheRealJacky 218 NT (spec3) / RB: 720k dmg

What would be interesting is if you give fluxes to the mp,doc and nt and then compare damage again. Using xp pistols you far from max your damage. A test like this is based on the gimpness level of the teammembers, it does not give you the max damage potential of the profession.

Highorbits post on page 2 compares the damage on bots with the same buffs on the same mob. A test that should give much more accurate info on the relative power levels of the bots. Because its really the relative power of the ql201 bot to the ql200 bot thats interesting, not how much damage a engi does compared to a certain mp or doc.

Battlefield Devastator (Trimmed) 31200 in 26 Hits
Guardian (Not Trimmed) 23250 in 31 Hits
Guardian (Trimmed) 36294 in 46 Hits
Annihilator (Trimmed) 20675 in 25 Hits

So by upping your skill by 680 points from 874 (Guardian) to 1554(Devastator), you get a slayer that has :
- Less hp than the ql200
- Less damage than the ql200
- Higher AC than the ql200

Not to mention that to use the devastator at lvl 209 you need spec4 and a pocket mp/trader.

[Gelanin]

Originally posted by Martinn
Highorbits post on page 2 compares the damage on bots with the same buffs on the same mob. A test that should give much more accurate info on the relative power levels of the bots. Because its really the relative power of the ql201 bot to the ql200 bot thats interesting, not how much damage a engi does compared to a certain mp or doc.

Actually, that is where i feel that most people are wrong.

it is EXACTLY how the total damage of a profession stacks up to the total damage of other professions that is interresting when looking at a damage perspective, and last but not least, when looking at a game-balance perspective.

[Highorbit]

Ack will the whole damage order convention just stop?

Listen. It's simple.

Level 200 Pet outdamages ALL the new Engineer Pets up to and including the level 209 Drone.

[Martinn]

Originally posted by Gelanin



Actually, that is where i feel that most people are wrong.

it is EXACTLY how the total damage of a profession stacks up to the total damage of other professions that is interresting when looking at a damage perspective, and last but not least, when looking at a game-balance perspective.

That has nothing to do with this thread at all.

Let me ask you a simple question. What would you think if a ql 1 Home Defender with a req of 6 in shotgun would do higher damage than a ql150 Home defender with a skill req of 688. This is how the new engi slayers work atm. Unlike weapon skills we dont see any increase in damage based on the amount of nanoskill we have. So all we need that skill for is to use a nano that should be better. A engi that spends ip to increase his MC/TS from 874 to 1554 actually does less damage, than a engi that dont. He spends ages camping spec4 and gets less damage? The dog seem to work ok, but the slayer is the main pet, the main weapon of a engi. This is what this thread is about. The damage prof x does is completely uninteresting in that discussion.

Scaling professions after damage based on one or 2 runs with a damagedumper shows absolutely nothing about the possibilities each profession has. Most dont even have access to their top weapons yet. As shown by the list letaah posted, a profession that used leeching guns actually outdamaged the engi. What if he puts on some good guns?

[Highorbit]

Well anyway. It's being looked into. So it can wait for a while.

[Letah]

A dotting+ubting+healing doc really has no time to shoot any weapon cept a fling, so no, fluxes would not enhance me. It would even lower me because I'd lose 90 nanoskills (pensive+pillow) which grants me good DOT's.

Thats why my dmg is pretty consistant. Anyways, nothing to do with engies Still need to team an engie with spec4 to test.

[Rustybolts]

Originally posted by Letah

Thats why my dmg is pretty consistant. Anyways, nothing to do with engies Still need to team an engie with spec4 to test.

No offense meant here Letah, but this thread is about performance of the 201+ bots. How is your damage dump relevent if you've never even teamed with one?

The purpose here is to get the performance stats of new bots. Try again with an engi who's worked his butt off to get the new content. Have him use his "best" bot, do a damage dump on pets. Have him use his Guardian, do a damage dump on pets. Compare.

Everyone who has done this test so far has reached the conclusion that the Guardian is doing more damage. Your total output isn't what we're analizing here, just the output of the slayers.

[Letah]

Originally posted by Rusty



No offense meant here Letah, but this thread is about performance of the 201+ bots. How is your damage dump relevent if you've never even teamed with one?

The purpose here is to get the performance stats of new bots. Try again with an engi who's worked his butt off to get the new content. Have him use his "best" bot, do a damage dump on pets. Have him use his Guardian, do a damage dump on pets. Compare.

Everyone who has done this test so far has reached the conclusion that the Guardian is doing more damage. Your total output isn't what we're analizing here, just the output of the slayers.

if you read the last paragraph of my biggest post you see I compare my stats with that of Octo (with a SL bot). As I also said in my thread (did you read it fully?) engies do great dmg with the 200 pet already, which prolly makes engies with SL pets happy too fast thinking they do a lot dmg while they already did without knowing.

[Zane0]

Hmm.

According to the data posted, it's very difficult to decide by how much the minimum/maximum damage on our bots should be raised. Weapon-based professions have a ways to climb before we can get a good sense of their average damage potential, and engineer damage is actually pretty good. However, I do think that the minimum and maximum damage should be pretty close together on these new pets, which isn't the case right now.

With maximum damage way above minimum, engineers are basically required to invest in mechanic for deconstruction in order to see any improvement in bot damage, if any. This not only stifles variety between engineers, it's also way too small a window to see all the improvement of our slayers. Our new Slayers should normally out-perform the 200 Slayer at all times, not in a 30 second decon window when you're in a team. Sheesh!
Furthermore, it's likely worse soloing with these 200+ slayers. 30k HP certainly isn't better then 48k HP. We also have to watch out and detrim our higher dogs in order to keep the aggro low. I shouldn't have to describe how having to reduce our Dogs' damage is wrong in principle. They're support pets FFS!

Bleh, those are just some misc quibbles. I just mean to say that I totally disagree on FC's vision of SL engi pets. If they put any thought into them that is, they look more ultra-rushed then intentional.