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Thread: Martial Artist after 18.7...

  1. #1

    Martial Artist after 18.7...

    Hello ,
    looked like not all changes were mentioned in the notes
    so i was wondering if u guys could share what found out ? what do u hate the most ? what do u think is great or can be used ?
    what needs a real change ?
    i will start with Zazen stance's critical decrease as it prevents the MA from playing his Main role in pvp and pvm damge wise ... the time on nanos still not that long
    ... are we getting a ranged weapon at somepoint ? new bow ?... whats wrong with that brawl stun that still land on an MA with unstunable line perked ?


    Discuss ..
    Herooo0 220/30/70 MA
    Darux 220/30/70 Engi
    Spartax 220/30/70 Enf
    X771 220/30/70 Fix
    Exavii 214/30/70 Shade
    Devix 164 trader
    Herooo00 150 MA

  2. #2
    There are already two threads on this exact subject....I don't think we really need a third, do we ?
    One profession to RoO them all, one profession to proc stun them, one profession to calm them all and in the darkness Exp perk them!

    Crataiken 220/30/70 General - Primal Evolution - 3rd AI 30 'Crat on RK 1 Setup
    Calms 220/30/70 General - Primal Evolution
    Medicaiken 220/30/70 General - Primal Evolution Setup
    Newen 220/30/70 President - The Galactic Milieu
    Mettagirl 220/20/** General - Primal Evolution
    Krataiken 150/18/40 General - Primal Evolution Setup

  3. #3
    i dont see any of them in a proper place ... thats where our topics should be
    Herooo0 220/30/70 MA
    Darux 220/30/70 Engi
    Spartax 220/30/70 Enf
    X771 220/30/70 Fix
    Exavii 214/30/70 Shade
    Devix 164 trader
    Herooo00 150 MA

  4. #4
    I nominate this "Thread of the Year" for 2015. Bravo!

  5. #5
    Well, i'll write here since no better thread is available.

    What is role of MA in 2015?

    Is it a bird, is it a plane, is it a healer?

    MA seems to me a very good soloer, I just did majority of Arid quest at lvl 216/217, (dinged from quest).

    And it is good. Does not die easy, can get really good evades in a "cheap" setup, essentially upgraded 150 twink setup.

    How do you guys make MA perform in 18.8?

    I just maxed all defenses, sloped on crit scopes (+5 and +15) mix of slippers of screaming, evade cloak, CM, ofab, igocs. 220-240 symbiants, IS left wrist. Weapons are fists, feet, upgraded sneaky boltar + wisdom of xan.

    No real endgame gear yet like gauntlet or betas/alphas yet. DB nanos i use the ones i can cast. Which is 1300ish requirements, 1700 is to much.

    Damage leaves a lot to be desired.
    You ( 876.189 / 110.400 / 192 / 116 / 60% / 7.079 ) This is my dump after soloing cave instance in Arid, these are aliens and I do roughly 60% crit rate, which is quite low considering i get 80+% elsewhere.

    Overall damage feels low. Am I doing something wrong or is that the norm of MA's these days?

    If its the norm that is sad. Running around 190-200k damage when pushing in my mix of crit/defense/MA setup. Shade can easily do 260-270k in fully defensive setup. And does so on any zone.

    I can see getting 10k fist crits would help damage a bit, but not that much, are there any decent DD perks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  6. #6
    No really good active Damage from Perks sadly since most perks are either a bit low on Dmg or have recharges that leave a lot to be desired, what all share is a damn short Range compared to how far away Shades seem to trigger their Perks ( might be Lag-Issue on my Side )

    The only strong Perk need to be placed on Mobs who are allmost dead , if ranged People are around the Mob often dies before it lands and unlike ancient times you cant just quickly swap Target to relocate the Impact (has changed after its been abused in PvP to perk other Evaders ).

    Imho MA is at a pretty Dead End :

    -Critrate nerfed with FoB-Change ( dont count the 4 % on UVC since buff everyone else with 4% more on MoP too )

    -While getting the Physical Init is difficult in the lower Levels and the Change to the Fist-template is therefore very beneficial for TL 3 to TL5 it is NOT a boost to TL6/TL7 since Min-Max(Crit) were not updated but only Speed which is no real Issue at TL6/TL

    -Critresist on Mobs ...very difficult Terrain since there is virtually no hard Data on that Field (I have not been to Arid since the XAN came out) what i see is a very obvious drop in Critrate vs red Redeemed in Mishes. Pure Raw Attackrate seems to help overcome this a bit better than just raising Crit% for some strange Reason which indirectly shows another "Nerf" of MA : we gained less in the Attackrate Department than many other Professions since LE came around.

    - Disharmony used to tick all the Time even if you didnt need heal which added quite a bit to the Damage ........ RIP

    -Critproc triggering is luckdependant , sometimes you can run both at once but on most Mishes and some Raids the Mobs are spaced out a bit too much and you just run the 19% like 2/3rd of the Time ( besides Crat with his infamous Nuke-Boost i cant think of any other Profession where a luckdependant Proc has such a Impact on Dmg )

    ------------------------

    Possible Measures and why they not gonna happen :

    - Increase Min-Max (Crit ) on Fists : would kill the need to Triplewield to max Dmg in PvM , Fistcrits would hurt even more in PvP which bundled with Viralblade for Sneakattack will most likely ellict Cries for "nerf"

    - Lower the AC in Highlevel Encounters : Simply too much work , will only benefit Fists but not Tonfa

    - Finally nerf Shade/Crat DD a bit ...... : Too many rolled Shade/Crat too many potential for Customers to get angry/quit.

    - Increase Range and decrease Recharge on Dmg-perks : while it would help PvM-Dmg a bit it might have a much stronger Impact on PvP ..tapdancing in a Minefield so to speak.

    ---------------------------

    Ideas that might not be final Solutions but have a low Workload ,they might happen if the Devs like them :

    - Give either the Fist itself or some allready existing MA-Weapon a Armorclass-Drain Proc much like this Weapon has http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=260730 since many People claim AC to be usefless in PvP there shouldnt be too much uproar about it.

    - Add a higher Version of "Fists of Stellar Harmony" with longer Duration and lets say 3% Crit at Requirements similar to Anvil Fists

    - Make the AC-Drain of Dragonfire stronger and last longer

    - Make any of our Dmgperks have a Crit-Resist Drain as Sideeffect (needs Targettype Monster)

    - Use the new Deflect for a PvM DD-Boost : Instead of having a Crit fullresisted and going down to regular Hit add a "Glancing Crit" which is Damagewise placed between a Real Crit and a Regular Hit . Percentage based on Deflect Skill . << This will be a small small boost in PvM but could produce PvP-Issues , better ask the PvP-Crowd before you change something there.
    Last edited by Dollcet; Jul 3rd, 2015 at 12:15:04.
    MA 4 Life ... No matter how hard you try, you can't put us down.
    -----
    I dislike Multiboxes , Makros , Programmable Keyboards , Multiple Actions to 1Key-Binds << all of them simply do not fit my Idea of Gaming-Skills/Competition-Ethics .
    -----
    Dear Developers for Future scaling of Items & Nanorequiments please consider that :
    -there are Players below 220
    -there are Players without Towers
    -there are Players without full Org-Benefits
    -there are free Players

  7. #7
    punching/Kicking in the face should lower the def and not the AC

  8. #8
    Am now 220, got alphas on Shiny...

    Punching bag :You ( 850.461 / 307.380 / 140 / 101 / 72% / 9.204 )
    City General 227ql, You ( 1.374.807 / 263.520 / 268 / 156 / 58% / 14.619 )
    Inf heckler 268k 62%crit.

    Damage is nothing stellar, easily surpassed by shades, crats... MP's D


    But....

    MA is now nice, very nice. I love playing it. Its just hard enough to be rewarding, just enough dd to be fast, just enough evades to kinda survive ok in pvp..

    And Zazen is just enough heals to get in to gauntlet .

    A wishlist for 18.9...

    more crit. Maybe introduce endgame crit buff. Ma should against any endgame target, when running all crit gear reach 100% crit rate reliably for duration of flurry of blows.

    Considering my humble 72% easy targets 57% hard targets crit rate... That is about on par with my ... agent, just not good enough for MA.

    Now before you guys go.. "you stupid nab, you play poorly... I can get 300k on inf hecklor!!!"

    Sure you can, i dont doubt it for a second, just like I know people who do 450k on shade against hecklor...

    A theoretical question, how much dd would MA do if every hit was a crit?

    Idea wise here is one: Disharmony make it 100% +1 crit per perk level -1 crit resistance on target per perk level... ultimatley resulting in less crit resistance on hard targets and +10 crit buff.

    Overall playing MA I always get a feeling its a great profession, but whenever I am in team i feel logging many other professions would benefit team more. As such its a profession best played solo, where you can appreciate it without worry that other professions are plain better. Somehow it needs more to it, to make it an A grade profession.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  9. #9
    a lot of people don't seem to get this, but I'll try to explain it clearly, and do the maths so it's better understood.

    The problem is simple: special hits such as brawl/fast attack count in the parser as "hits", but there is no modifier on the special hit that designates them as "criticals", even though it is abundantly clear (especially in the case of fast attack) when that hit is in fact a crit. This means that your specials are critting, but not getting counted as crits, worse yet, they are counting as NON-crits in the actual parser, directly adversely affecting the perceived crit rate.

    Ok, lets take some numbers, for a moment so I can explain further.

    Lets say, over 4 minutes of continuous fighting, you (an MA) triple wielding kuma tonfa, fist, and X1-R4 land 230 white hits

    lets break that down:

    triple wielding at 1/1 gets you about 40 ish hits/minute, that's about 13 koma tonfa, 13 fist, 13 X1R4 for 4 minutes is 160 hits.
    over 4 minutes you get about 10 fast attack/minute, or 40ish fast attack
    you also get about 16 brawls.

    now, if you look at the numbers here's where it gets interesting:

    you get 160 hits which are CAPABLE of being parsed as crits, and;
    you get about 56 hits which are biasing for crit rate DOWN since these hits can not count as crits (even though they might be critting).

    Ok, so, now to the math:

    Lets say, you, as an MA using brawl/fast attack on CD are hitting 72% crit over 4 minutes of continuous fighting, if we multiply your total number of hits by the percent of crits we get:

    72%*(160+56) = 155 crits (and 61 non crits)

    Do you really think this is right? Me, personally? hell no. I've counted my crit to be in the 95%-100% range... so, we got to figure out how to adjust the reported number.

    So, the first thing to do is to assess what the MAX crit rate is under this parser system limitation:

    max crits possible in 4 min = 160, hits counted is 218.

    160/218 = 73.3%

    that means, if you're hitting 100% crit, and spamming all specials on CD, that the best case scenario the parser will tell you that you're hitting 73.3% crit rate.

    So, here's where things get slightly ambiguous. If your fast attack isn't 6s, and/or you don't spam them on CD, then your max reported crit rate will gradually creep up, until you get to (in the case that you are not using fast attack, for instance), only 4 specials/minute vs ~40 reportable crits, in which case the max crit rate is:

    40/44 = 91%

    Now, unfortunately, you didn't say what your fast attack recharge was, and you also didn't say if you were spamming specials. Lets just pretend you were spamming brawl and fast attack on CD and your fast attack recharge is 6s.

    In this case, your ACTUAL crit rate can be calculated as the percentage reported, divided by the MAX percentage possible:

    72/73.3 = 98% crit rate.

    Hence, the corrected crit rate is actually MUCH closer to 100%.

    There ya go! Hope you like being a crit junkie. I certainly do :P

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    A theoretical question, how much dd would MA do if every hit was a crit?

    Idea wise here is one: Disharmony make it 100% +1 crit per perk level -1 crit resistance on target per perk level... ultimatley resulting in less crit resistance on hard targets and +10 crit buff.

    Overall playing MA I always get a feeling its a great profession, but whenever I am in team i feel logging many other professions would benefit team more. As such its a profession best played solo, where you can appreciate it without worry that other professions are plain better. Somehow it needs more to it, to make it an A grade profession.
    you can get around 350k vs lower AC targets but MA's are kinda interesting in that the general perception is that more crit is better... and for a big part of the spectrum that is true. But in late stages of the crit curve, you start to have to reduce MA skill in order to stack on more crit, and, in my experience, it's more useful to stack on more MA skill than more crit, it's hard to do the maths on this stuff because of the complex relationship between MA skill and the actual MA weapon, but put it this way:

    once you start feeling like you're hitting about 95+ crit, I would rather swap out the 15% Viral scope for a 75 MA skill research hud during moonmist to really crank the crit damage, in opposition to maintaining high crit rate by crit increase. why? Because you can boost crit damage from around 8500 to 10500 with MA skill which results in a crit BOOST of about 18%, which ALSO boosts non crit damage considerably as well, whereas a 15% boost to produce more crit damage is actually offset by 1. normal damage, and 2. lower AR resulting in less effective AR/(AR+def) crit ... ah, this is tricky to explain, but the point is: if you can get your AR to about 3500, you'll get a base crit of approximately enough that it actually offsets the loss of 15% crit from the scope.

    Furthermore, in some extreme cases especially teamed with trader/crat/keeper, that you can boost your AR so high that you end up with greater than 100% crit in which case the slot is essentially wasted by putting a high % crit item in it (for example, a gurgling river sprite would be more effective than a Viral scope since the 10% extra crit isn't needed AND you get an extra 5 points of MA skill).

    Does that make sense? If I were you and you were super keen on serious DPSing, step one, identify all slots that you can put crit adding items that don't cause you to lose MA skill, step 2, max MA skill+AR (full CC+Ofab pants), get as much add dmg as you can (1200ish is reasonable with awakening+disharmony+top controlled dmg buff), then only swap out slots that don't give MA skill. For example, in my utils/huds I use: snipers friend, MA deck, DB escape module, 2 calculators, the 75 MA research hud during moonmist, and 15% scope during non-moonmist.

    Don't forget your 6/6 MA NCU's, and plant a high tower/contract for really uber feelings.

    Also, another point that's sort of off topic: if you're teamed with a soldier, not sure if you're using fist damage change nanos, but fist damage chance nanos do not stack with the soldier add dmg buff line... (probably a bug).

  11. #11
    Also another interesting thing is that beyond 3k ma skill it dosen't really add to damage, or very very little, been a while since i've tested it but it's something to be aware of.
    Don't you just hate this kind of ppl
    http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/w...rouscranus.htm

  12. #12
    That's because the templates stop at 3k MA, anything past that is just extra AR which has little effect on dmg with the 1k+ nerf.

  13. #13
    Omg, thank you so much. Exactly what I wanted to know. Naturally i spam FA 7s, Brawl...

    I wear armor roughly likeyou suggestes, CM for now, I thought It would be better for pvm, hp wise.

    Such intricate math behind MA damage.

    Then there are big questions, fist of dominator, ado brain, or alphas. Melee pad+igoc or gauntlet, back has options too, rest CC/ofab pants.

    Is 3500AR even attainable? With towers, alphas, CM all Ma perks i bearly run over 3k while using crit scope. Auras would help naturally, but doing most of MA gameplay solo.

    I guess sensible bypass for tiny dump deficiancies would be to just run auto attacks and flury crit.

    Is 75MA, better than 60AAO+100Add damage. I never even considered such an awesome Idea.

    Then damage types... Got db3 bracer, so really can use any, using anvil fist mostly.

    Do you use any sharp objects, any MA special attacks for damage? So far I use IS + Dbquest one.

    Hm. Gotta test this out, thank you for insight, Ill post results of technique change, cc will come later.

    So for later review..

    Crit scope, some MA items as suicide as I could make it 2666 passive MA skill 54 passive crit rate.. umbral running from trader.

    Against Beast
    Place. Player (Damage/Damage per Minute/Hits/Crits/Crit%/highest hit)
    1. 218/22 shade( 820.141 / 189.960 / 144 / 28 / 19% / 13.000 )
    2. Brucegeez ( 783.895 / 181.560 / 167 / 100 / 59% / 9.687 )
    3. 220/25 NT ( 679.620 / 157.440 / 65 / 14 / 21% / 17.387 )
    4. 220/27 Agent ( 673.605 / 156.000 / 87 / 32 / 36% / 13.000 )
    5. The Beast ( 650.434 / 150.660 / 64 / 0 / 0% / 7.899 )

    :P So actual damage in combat,
    Last edited by Cratertina; Jul 18th, 2015 at 12:46:03. Reason: Added DDump
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  14. #14
    I just know what fists to use pre 18.7 didnt tested arround anvil fists yet.

    Tip for a back item is the spirit shroud ( artillery version ) adds +1 crit.
    the Hud 3 question is a good one sicne your add dmg helps at kuma tonfa dmg increase .. Pure ma helps only at fists ( mbs works less on tonfa ).

    I disagree btw with mc because less crit chance will make you less crit on tonfas => less crits on fastattack and dmg arround 2.4 k - 3.3 k (depending on add dmg) . Normhits make those worthless whilst normhits on fists hits still with 5k + . better run for more crit . you wont reach 100 % without swapping the flurry on a reasonable setup
    Last edited by Rockleee; Jul 20th, 2015 at 19:30:04.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockleee View Post
    Tip for a back item is the spirit shroud ( artillery version ) adds +1 crit.
    I would reckon Aura Magnifier would be better, with 15MA & 20Damage, than 1 Crit.

    220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
    200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
    TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee

    Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP


  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    I would reckon Aura Magnifier would be better, with 15MA & 20Damage, than 1 Crit.
    ya I agree. I go for aura magnifier for best DPS.

    @rocklee you're correct, the 75 MA hud 3 item is really only a situational use item, but it does make a difference. vs aliens for example, if you're hitting 10800 crits vs aliens, that's earthshattering damage. and, notably, your MA perks also do just unbelievable damage.

    ideally, you see aliens approach, pop controlled dmg buff, moonmist, DOF and flurry, with the 75 MA hud in, and you'll level the hacker incredibly quickly i.e. tremor hand/flesh quiver/chi conductor/obliterate

    Honestly, those are the biggest obliterates you'll ever see, like it wasn't uncommon to be hitting 18k obliterates. Ya, often mob is dead by then, but still, if it's not, it's a massive chunk of damage that gets taken off when you land a crit for 10k+ and a 18k obliterate at the same time.

    The other time to use it is right after flesh quiver which reduces AC's. use fire fist+dragon fire+flesh quiver, swap in the 75 MA hud and watch as mobs just crumble to maxed out, supermax crits.

    any other time, and generally always when triplewielding, the 15% scope will vastly outperform anything else. Hell, it could even be called a novelty to use it

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    I would reckon Aura Magnifier would be better, with 15MA & 20Damage, than 1 Crit.
    Surely both have pros and cons. But MY personal experience shows that noncrit hits on tonfas sucks. Thats why i prefer to hav emore crits to acoid less non crit tonfa hits.

    What i have been told by some Ma´s was that 1 crit is equal to 70 add dmg. ( im aware of high ac and low ac mobs i think there its a bit different ) .
    Lets compare the other stats that those items adds.

    Spiritshroud adds more AC + Body def + Runspeed + dodge , while aura magnifer adds 200 nanopool. Sure the spirit shroud is hard to farm but its worth it and in my opinion it will outscale the Aura magnifer.

    On a side note. If the 70add dmg equals 1 crit on high ac mobs it is maybe arround 35 dmg at low ac mobs. but that item adds you 15 % crit i am not sure if the MA hud will add more

  18. #18
    I was the one who did that calc for 1% crit = 70 damage.

    But I also made expressly clear in that post that that calculation didn't account for changes in the MA base fist template.


    The damage boost on aura magnifier isn't from add dmg, it's from 15 MA skill and 15 add dmg.

    The gambolling masters wear is also a strong competitor for raw damage, as is reanimated gladiator, but broadly speaking, the best of the best is aura magnifier.

    15 MA skill when you're on the approach to 3000 skill is huge, the damage gained per hit is in the area of 200 points on a crit. So ya, the 15 add dmg doesn't do much, but the raw base damage from weapon increase is a big consideration.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    I was the one who did that calc for 1% crit = 70 damage.

    But I also made expressly clear in that post that that calculation didn't account for changes in the MA base fist template.


    The damage boost on aura magnifier isn't from add dmg, it's from 15 MA skill and 15 add dmg.

    The gambolling masters wear is also a strong competitor for raw damage, as is reanimated gladiator, but broadly speaking, the best of the best is aura magnifier.

    15 MA skill when you're on the approach to 3000 skill is huge, the damage gained per hit is in the area of 200 points on a crit. So ya, the 15 add dmg doesn't do much, but the raw base damage from weapon increase is a big consideration.
    Well as i said it is my opinion. We dont have to agree. And if he takes aura mag or spirit shroud it wont change the world . Make some tests with dd look what suits you more and go for it.

  20. #20
    ya I agree.

    And your point about the kuma tonfa is highly relevant nowadays since the probability is high for using a trip weild setup.

    People using straight fist can produce some pretty decent numbers though, like, if you're set up properly, vs RK mobs you can quite easily crank 300k DPM using straight fist (~10k dmg * 30 hits/min) perks/specials/MA attacks not included.

    Getting 10k crits does require some fine tuning though.

    The only other point I'll make on this is that if you're already well over the crit cap (100%) during flurry of blows (most people are), then you're better off swapping gear out that adds crit in favour of gear that adds MA skill+add dmg as long as the offset doesn't adversely affect overall damage.

    For instance, if you setup for (with proc) 90% crit rate, but with 300k more AR/MA skill than a setup with 99% crit rate, then any time you use FoB you're wasting the 19% boost you'd get under that modifier, thus, to reduce "wasteage" of modifier, it's much more advantageous to outfit for higher AR/MA skill/add dmg than crit once you get past 80%.

    Again, the reasoning is highly defendable: 1. it increases the AR/def ratio increasing crit naturally, 2. it increases crit damage considerably AND boosts non crit damage, AND boosts perk damage AND boosts MA attack damage.

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