Dream mission...

[Raveleet]

/me wipes a tear from her eye
This is exactly what I've been dreaming about, thank you all. (=
Didn't see many ideas for advents though, but that's ok, I still get to be leet and people love leets right
can't think of anything an advent can do right now, but I'm sure there is something useful we can do, except maybe the boss is allergic to leets *giggles*, will post my serious ideas later if I get some.
Untill then
SUPER-ULTRA-BUMP
Make it sticky!

**edit note: corrected typos

[MissMaul]

This wonderous thread had been certified for bumping, in effect immediatly.

[___________Zeroshift]

Originally posted by Terile
One way round the problem of people leaving the team is to make the mission completable by more than one skillset.

For example, the locked door mentioned above could be lockpicked (fixer), sabotaged / demolished (engy), or just broken down (enforcer).

Similarly, a "stop this guy from using his horrible PK weapons"
mission could be resolved by 1. sneaking in and sabotaging the weapon (fixer/agent) 2. killing the guards and taking the weapon 3. killing the boss that intends to use it (enforcer)

This could be taken to the logical extreme where we don't need class-specific missions, but all characters can draw on the unique talents of their class to complete missions.

wootage, good additions

[_____________Trosida]

So glad this thread was moved. Would have been a terrible shame to lose all the gread ideas!

Alas adventurers come up again... hmmm...

Are adventurers the scouting class of AO? If so, you could have a mission goal of 'map the entire mission without being spotted' or something along those lines. Then use a devices that checks against the adventuring skill to download the map and return the map device to the mission booth for reward and exp.

Yeah you could move away from class specific missions and that be great as well. Though with class specification its a bit easier to implement as well as you can be pretty sure of what types of puzzles you'd be getting. I definitely like the idea of multiple solutions to puzzles though I could see that being somewhat difficult to implement from the get go but is a great goal for all this!

[_____________Yureiko]

I, too, am glad this thread was moved and am giving it the bumpage it so greatly deserves.

In addition to that, let me see if I can add anything.

Hmmmm.

Well, first of all, let me summarize the point of this thread, which is: That any mission you get right now basicaly results in killing every mob in the place until you reach your goal. Right now, the only flavor is the occassional locked or trapped chest, locked door,
and maybe the goal of the mission itself.

So the point is to suggest things to give a more immersive quality to the missions.

For example, adding barriers that require specific skills or attributes to get past. Not just B&E but say, perhaps a portion of the building has collaspsed under fire and to get to your target you have to have either a type of gadget to move it or a specific strength. (The gadget could be something like a lifter.)

What about running past a fire (not the little fireplace thingie but an actual part of the dungeon that is covered in fire and your target is beyond?) They've made some things give damage like the irradiated liquid pools. Why not make fire do so as well?

In fact, it seems the irradiated pools are really a non issue. What's the point of buying radiation armor when your have simply to walk around or jump over those pools? Why not make more things that give off radiation? Like a cloud of smoke pouring out of the room you need to go into?

So, there's some more ideas.

Thought I couldn't add anymore, did ya?

Well, Nyah!!!

[_____________Trosida]

From very early in this thread:

"The point of these posts, and descriptions, is that there is NOTHING in them that can't be in the game at this exact moment, well except false alignment nanos. The idea of security probes, broken doors, tighter time limits, NPCs interaction and following, all of this can be implemented without changing any existing rules of the game. "

One of my points in all this is all the mechanisms need to create the puzzles in missions already exist in the game in one form or another. Using items on objects in missions (radar repair), conversing with NPCs, NPCs following PCs, etc etc all exist in the game already. At this time its just a matter of creating more of them and adding a skill check to the activity as a means of puzzle solving in missions These puzzles could be further defined by a selection of what proffessions will be undertaking the mission, then when the mission is generated puzzles from a pool of puzzles designed around those particular professions are implemented into the mission layout. Further, put on these things real tight time limits, and the potential for failure. In return offer a genuine experience reward for completion of these types of missions (especially since you won't be clearing all the monsters). Now with a real tight time limit and potential for failure, you can justify a very nice experience reward (risk vs reward) or very nice item rewards, or both, or whatever.

Many other posts in this thread have been talking about specific mission styles and specific types of puzzles and are chock full of interesting and cool ideas. If you have the chance and haven't yet definitely peruse the thread. There is some seriously creative stuff out there.

[__________Banjosammy]

This is a great thread. I wish only that some of the fine ideas here can make it to the game some day. Missions would be so much more interesting then.

I think that every mission should be possible to complete by fighting your way from point A to point B like it works now. But there should be alternative routes and shortcuts. And they should require certain skills to take. Like Deus Ex.

The fine thing is, as previously mentioned, that most of the mechanics required to implement this, is in the game already.

Here's a few additional ideas (I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if some are already mentioned):

- A distant button could be triggered with an Aimed Shot. To lower a drawbridge or deactivate a door lock.

- A Bureaucrat could negotiate with an NPC in a hostage scenario (If it fails, send in the Enforcer).

- An Adventurer in Leet form could crawl through tiny passages and wormholes. To open a door from the other side perhaps?

- Some people can jump really high. Natural obstacles, crates, chasms and jumping blocks can make certain areas available only to some. Lara Croft style.

- Some people can run really fast. What about a spike trap where you must push a switch at the other end of a long corridor before you get crushed to death? Indy style.

- A MA could be challenged to duel an NPC one-on-one. If successful, the NPC could open a door, give up information or whatever.

- And traps should be dangerous, not annoying like now.

[Nullifax]

Another idea for MA type fight would be a mob that has a changing damage shield. That would require the MA to switch damage type in the middle of the fight, or possibly switch weapons as well.

[___________Zeroshift]

As cool as these things would be, they would not be well suited to pick up teams...

These will be best done as single missions, or team missions with guild mates that won't run into a sentry gun field and get your entire team wiped out.

[_____________Trosida]

Seems like these are great for potential pick up groups. In this case you'd have people shouting "Level 125 dream mission group needs heavy hitters for an extraction into Clan territory!"

"Looking for Fixer circa level 70ish for dream mission"

"Need someone with high tradeskills for QL 150 dream mission!"


Course I doubt anyone would say "Dream Mission" in these cries for aid, but that'd be neat too!

Especially the ultra pickup group:

A crat, a doc, and a fixer walk into a bar...

[Raveleet]

Way too far down the list.
Up you go.
BUMP

[__________Holmgehirr]

sure bump

[Nullifax]

A crat, a doc, and a fixer walk into a bar.....


Fixer: "My contact is here, he has the information on where we can get the chemicals we need for you to make the vaccine for that bio-weapon, Doc"

Doc: "Hurry up, we only have 3 hours before the viral bomb goes off."

*Fixer talks to the contact*

Fixer: "My contact told me I we have to meet up with a neutral scientist which we cna get to from a special grid node. This guy isn't very sociable, so he's going to need some convincing in order to get the chems we need from him. Crat, that's your department."

Crat: "Won't be a problem."

..... and thus began their mission to save thousands of lives from a horrible permakilling virus.

[Greenhawk]

Absolutely the way that team missions SHOULD be... hell, single-player missions too for that matter. However, to do it properly is more complex than the author implies... not to say it isn't a good idea. The difficulty is not in the implementation of each individual puzzle, it is in the playbalancing of the zillions of combinations, as well as the risk/reward factor. Given how difficult it has been for them to playbalance the easy stuff (armor, weapons, etc), I think it is safe to say that this dream mission system is unlikely.

I like the idea, and hope that folks working on future MMORPGs take note of it.

[__________Mr.Nothing]

If the mission were like that ide do em more often.

ADV, should get out door more mission.


Greeting ADV, a fellow Omni/Clan member was recentenly transporting (insirt item here) to (insirt place here), when he was attacked and murdered by oposing Omni/Clan forces. It is your job to retrace his Mission from (insirt place here) to (insirt place here) and find (insirt item here). The Omni/Clan forces have allready sent out a search team for (insirt item here). We estamate you have 4 hours to find it.

(Insirt Cool Quote Here)

[_____________Trosida]

One of my inspirations in all this was a little game called "Indiana Jones and his Desktop Adventures". Here was exactly the type of engine needed to produce literally unlimited numbers of adventures all puzzle based. Now with MMORPGS being what they are, the 'pool' of puzzles, if you will, could be increased every few months or so with fresh puzzles, new ones cycled in old ones cycled out.

My suggestion would be to start with a ver limited number and place em on test, ask people to do them and give detailed feedback. If it works, put em on live and see how it goes for a month or two.

The complicated part of implementation is the creation of the choosing system. Everything else is best accomplished by elaborating on systems already in the game.

Soon I'll try to come up with a very detailed example and see how it could work out.

As far as risk vs reward. The greatest risk is the risk of failure. Something currently lacking in AO missions. That alone means you can put in nice exp, or item awards for completion of these missions. Tight time limits, and chances of failure.

Potential methods of failure include:

Running out of time (very short time limits 1 or 2 hours)
Being killed (mission deletes if mission creator was killed)
Target escapes

and I'm sure people can come up with others.

The goal in these posts is try to create missions using systems and mechanics already in the game that just need to be looked at from a different angle. Thus eliminating what would be the hardest part of implementation; designing new systems.

[Greenhawk]

Originally posted by Trosida
The goal in these posts is try to create missions using systems and mechanics already in the game that just need to be looked at from a different angle. Thus eliminating what would be the hardest part of implementation; designing new systems.

I must disagree with you on this. In my experience, the most difficult part of implementation is... implementation. The creation of the idea is, relatively speaking, very easy. Trust me, when you find an engineering group that is capable of taking a "brilliant idea" and actually fully realizing it with code, you have a very special team.

The best proof of this I can give is to simply look at computer games as a whole... what percentage of them are truly "great"... now, how many of them could have been great, but didn't quite click on all cylinders? If we're living in the same world, I'll wager you'll also come up with a pretty lopsided ratio towards "almosts" vs "truly great games". Of note, Anarchy Online is an "almost"... fun, but a fairly long distance from realizing its full potential (as you point out quite nicely in your many posts).

One thing I will agree with, though, is the importance of design (as opposed to just brainstorming). Thinking through what you're about to implement and looking at all the details is vital. Obviously, this thread isn't attempting to do the design... it is, rather, a really nice brainstorm.

[_____________Trosida]

That's why you need to start small implement carefully and scale up when the system works. I suspect if more teams actually proceed this way instead of implementing everything at once and piece-meal fixing errors there would be more great games. (Well that and devs stop promising the moon and the stars but that is an entirely different rant.)

The difference, imho, here is that the basic systems are already in place (i.e. using objects on other objects, skill checks, etc). So that part of implementation which in my view would be the hardest part can be for the most part circumvented.

Now you're absolutely right actually designing the puzzles to be encountered and making sure they do what they are supposed to do could be difficult. Especially if you set out to design 100 odd puzzles for each profession from the get go. Rather than starting with say ten or so total puzzles for the start.

Even now there are 3 effective puzzles in the game (though they need to be drastically raised up): locked doors, locked chests, trapped chests. Very very simplistic, but still there. Each requires at least 1 skill check (search, or B&E) and an object used on a game environment item (lock pick kit or bomb disarming kit on a door or chest). Until a patch you could even be rewarded with an item to your inventory (the bomb) if you succeeded. This is what I mean by the basic components to such puzzles are already in place. The systems that drive those three puzzles form the foundation for anything else you want to do.

Of course... that's what the test server is for.

Careful planning and proceeding step-wise starting small can tame even the most difficult process into relatively simple ones.

So I suppose the question becomes, are processes to complex to be readily implemented or do some people approach the complex as complex rather than break it down to fundemental steps of design, implement, test, retest, and so forth. I suspect in today's game market there is too much of massive design rushed implementation little testing and a haphazard correction process. Of course, demand being what it can be may drive this phenomina...

but that's neither here nor there.

I still love the idea of changing into a leet to go through a small tunnel to open a door from the other side.

[Greenhawk]

Originally posted by Trosida
That's why you need to start small implement carefully and scale up when the system works. I suspect if more teams actually proceed this way instead of implementing everything at once and piece-meal fixing errors there would be more great games. (Well that and devs stop promising the moon and the stars but that is an entirely different rant.)

Actually, what you refer to is called prototyping, and is often used as a method of doing proofs of concept. However, it is no panacea... you can have success in a prototype, but discover new problems when the scale is increased that you didn't see. There is no simple answer, my friend. This having been said, careful design IS one key to good implementation... but just having a great idea is definitely the easy part.

The difference, imho, here is that the basic systems are already in place (i.e. using objects on other objects, skill checks, etc). So that part of implementation which in my view would be the hardest part can be for the most part circumvented.

Unfortunately, the basic elements are not really the hardest part. The hardest part is more likely to be the interlocking matrix of possibilities, and their interactions, at the higher end of the completion scale. Once you have a thousand possible scenarios/puzzles, balance becomes a HECK of a lot harder.

Now you're absolutely right actually designing the puzzles to be encountered and making sure they do what they are supposed to do could be difficult. Especially if you set out to design 100 odd puzzles for each profession from the get go. Rather than starting with say ten or so total puzzles for the start.

But as mentioned above, even if you scale up, you will encounter new problems you'd not anticipated. Don't get me wrong, design is a GOOD thing... as I often preach, "think before you code".

Even now there are 3 effective puzzles in the game (though they need to be drastically raised up): locked doors, locked chests, trapped chests. Very very simplistic, but still there. Each requires at least 1 skill check (search, or B&E) and an object used on a game environment item (lock pick kit or bomb disarming kit on a door or chest). Until a patch you could even be rewarded with an item to your inventory (the bomb) if you succeeded. This is what I mean by the basic components to such puzzles are already in place. The systems that drive those three puzzles form the foundation for anything else you want to do.

Yep, totally true. However, every time you expand the interaction, you raise the complexity and you raise the opportunity for both bugs and balance issues. All I'm saying is don't underestimate this... it isn't impossible, but it is complex. Given the fact we're discussing a game a year into release, it is no mean feat.

Careful planning and proceeding step-wise starting small can tame even the most difficult process into relatively simple ones.

Ah, but keep in mind that over planning is equally deadly. Overdesign has killed more games than poor planning, I guarantee you.

So I suppose the question becomes, are processes to complex to be readily implemented or do some people approach the complex as complex rather than break it down to fundemental steps of design, implement, test, retest, and so forth. I suspect in today's game market there is too much of massive design rushed implementation little testing and a haphazard correction process. Of course, demand being what it can be may drive this phenomina...

Yes, there is some haphazard rush, to be sure. However, breaking everything down to its fundamental elements, testing, retesting, etc takes time. To do that properly on every facet of a game like AO would likely cost you more than you care to spend, and guarantee you'd lose money... which kinda invalidates the entire game production in the first place. If you can guarantee your idea and implementation will be good enough to result in Blizzard-like sales... great, take 3-4 years and spend 20 million bucks to make your game. If, however, you do not have those luxuries... you try to maximize efficiency.

I still love the idea of changing into a leet to go through a small tunnel to open a door from the other side.

Me too

[_____________Trosida]

That if you balance from the get go than further balancing upon addition of a new component is made easier (not necessarily easy, but easier).

In that if A and B are in balance then one adds C and if C causes an imbalance then the error is with C not A or B. Where as if you add A, B, and C at the same time and you don't have balance the question of balancing the three becomes much more difficult.

Obviously an over simplified case, though that's essentially my point. The game has the programming for making skill checks but only does so in extraordinarily limited ways. Seems like that could be broadened.

Yes overplanning can kill a game, but I don't think its a problem in any current MMORPG on the market (ok that was appropriately cynical I apologize).

Also one could develop 'template' puzzles. Sort of a Mad-Lib for puzzles where the mechanic remains the same but the parts change.

For example:

Use (trade skill item) on (mission area object) to (unlock door, lower bridge, release prisoner, and so on). Essentially requires one skill check. Pull a random trade skill item, a random mission object, and a random result (from a pool of such things) and throw in an appropriate trade skill check, tagged to classes of item.

New systems aside you have right there quite a few different puzzles based on the same template. So rather than worrying about balancing each individual puzzle, you balance a few templates that are capable of making a multitude of puzzles. As long as templates are balanced, the individual components don't really matter.

So here's a basic system let's hash it out a bit...

A fixer uses a hacking device on a control panel to find out what's wrong with the door. This is a simple comp lit check and results in providing information if successful:

The door is closed and is a puzzle door (requires something other than lock picking).

Fixer learns:

This puzzles needs a (item chosen from a list for this template) and using it on the door consumes the item and tests (skill chosen from a list of trade skills for this template). Success opens the door, failure detontates a bomb or nothing happens but the door still doesn't open, or maybe a few other possiblities.

Figure each aspect required a trade skill award appropriate exp for each step (analysis and fixing). Maybe multiply this reward by the QL of the mission or whatever may be appropriate for balancing. That's another issue.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying implementation would be *easy* but I am saying I think the major systems are already in the game and just need to be reapplied to make missions into what this game touted them to be.

I think the trick is starting simple then developing templates with interchangable parts. That introduces the variety necessary and with templates balanced any new additions could be analzyed against those already balanced to each other.

Obviously, I'm looking at this from a game theory point of view rather than a coding point of view. With our luck this would be tried and the result would be a linear dungeon with chests full of Yalms and maps to that vacation paradise: Mort. The joke being each chest needs a Neleb's cloak activated on it checking against hydro vehicles in order to open.