For those interested in an IP-wipe:

[_______zeroframerate]

Just some food for thought here:

Want that 36 in Electrical Engineering so you can wear those night-vision goggles?

Think about this when you start spending IP:

At level 20 it will cost you 633 IP to get 36 Electrical Engineering (if it's blue ... not dark blue) for you.

At level 60 it will cost you ... nothing. You'll have a base 36 Electrical Engineering no matter what color it is.

Moral: Spending early costs you more in the long run.

So, does this support an IP-wipe? Well, using this information as a basis an IP-wipe, the wipe would only benefit those of higher level (because they don't have to spend as much to attain the same skill level as they did before).

Interesting.

[_______________Snarf]

What a totally stupid argument.

And just how many skills do you need to raise to only 36? Uhh. Maybe two?

Yeah, let's not have an IP reset because a level 150 character who gets 75,000 IP per level may save 800 IP. *smack*

The REAL reason that there's never going to be an IP reset is that Funcom architected AO all wrong. So there's a reset. What happens to implants? Equipment? A bag you say? What if inv is full? Put it in the bank? Do you really trust Funcom to NOT screw up a process as complicated as that when it takes them four months to find and partially remove 'Take it easy' from their code?

And just how do they handle map upgrades? Set everyone's map upgrades to the default again? But I paid for them. Give everyone money?

And do you really think Funcom could even calculate how much IP you were due? Given that they don't know the difference between adding +10 damage and +10% damage, I don't! Heck, if the alg was as simple as yourlevel*10, they'd still manage to mess it up.

Truth is Funcom won't do it because Funcom *can't* do it. THey SHOULD, but they CAN'T.

Yeah, I'm in a bad mood.
Snarf!

[Obit]

I'm surprised everyone doesn't know this, but here we go: Skills are dependant on abilities to be raised. Electrical engineering is maybe 80% intelligence and 20% sense, just an example. Now, if you never touch sense and intelligence, the electrical engineering will stay at base whatever level you are. The skills dependant on the abilities you raise also get higher as you spend IPs on their respective abilities (if that made any sense at all english is not my first language).
To prove this, cast for example Intelligence boost on yourself and watch all your nano skills go up 3 points.

soooo, if they reset all ip, these skills will also go back to base.

Made sense?

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Third Eye
I'm surprised everyone doesn't know this, but here we go: Skills are dependant on abilities to be raised. Electrical engineering is maybe 80% intelligence and 20% sense, just an example. Now, if you never touch sense and intelligence, the electrical engineering will stay at base whatever level you are. The skills dependant on the abilities you raise also get higher as you spend IPs on their respective abilities (if that made any sense at all english is not my first language).
To prove this, cast for example Intelligence boost on yourself and watch all your nano skills go up 3 points.

soooo, if they reset all ip, these skills will also go back to base.

Made sense?

Actually, that's wrong. Your skill goes up according to level, not attributes. Those dependancies are actually related to your chance of success with the given skill and do not determine your actual skill level. The Intelligence Boost nano doesn't just raise your Intelligence by 3 points.

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Snarf
What a totally stupid argument.

Snarf, you've managed to completely misinterpret my entire message in your hasty anger. Try reading next time, it does wonders for understanding.

The cost of skills decrease as you gain in level if you're purchasing them to a specific level, to the point where you can save thousands of IP if you just wait til higher levels to acquire skills. It's a good reason to NOT do an IP-wipe or reallocation. Yes, I realize Funcom will never do it. I'm just trying to put forth for people evidence as to why it would be ultimately unbalancing.

Let's say we're aiming to get this pretend dark-blue skill up to 150. Let's say there are no level caps just for the purposes of IP comparison.

Level 10 needs to spend 26,438 IP.
Level 25 needs to spend 23,328 IP.
Level 50 needs to spend 18,576 IP.

So, as you can see, an IP-redistribution or wipe would only benefit those of higher levels because they have less to spend and their skill caps are higher (allowing them to purchase skills up to a higher level before waiting to reach a new title).

So, Snarf, relax and have a cookie.

[_______________Snarf]

> Your skill goes up according to level, not attributes

Two posts, two incorrect statements. You are absolutely incorrect. Skills get a bonus based on attributes.

Actual_Skill = base_breed_skill + learned_skill + attribute_bonus + buffs + implants - debuffs

There is NO level based component to skills. The precise amount of this attribute bonus (from memory) is 0.25 * (attribute contributions for that skill), where attribute contributions are ex: 20% int, 80% sta.

Snarf

[_______________Snarf]

> The cost of skills decrease as you gain in level if you're purchasing them to a specific level, to the point where you can save thousands of IP if you just wait til higher levels to acquire skills. It's a good reason to NOT do an IP-wipe or reallocation. Yes, I realize Funcom will never do it. I'm just trying to put forth for people evidence as to why it would be ultimately unbalancing.

Sorry, we did the math MONTHS ago on this. The skill system does not work this way. The cost to rise any skill for the first time is CONSTANT and rises in cost quadratically ( cost to raise last point + 0.2 * cost to raise last point). It is ENTIRELY independent of level. If I raise Psychology one point at level 2, it will cost me the SAME amount of IP as raising it one point at level 152.

You are wrong wrong wrong!

Snarf!

[_______zeroframerate]

I disagree completely. Gimme your level and a skill that you have not spent any IP in and I can tell you what level that skill is without you giving me any attributes. Can you do the same? I can accurately pinpoint the value for every single skill value I have just on level and how many times you've raised a skill, without a single attribute mentioned.


I can also tell you how much IP it is going to cost to reach a certain level (barring skill caps).

Originally posted by Snarf
> Your skill goes up according to level, not attributes

Two posts, two stupid statements. You are absolutely incorrect. Skills get a bonus based on attributes.

Actual_Skill = base_breed_skill + learned_skill + attribute_bonus + buffs + implants - debuffs

There is NO level based component to skills. The precise amount of this attribute bonus (from memory) is 0.25 * (attribute contributions for that skill), where attribute contributions are ex: 20% int, 80% sta.

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Snarf
> The cost of skills decrease as you gain in level if you're purchasing them to a specific level, to the point where you can save thousands of IP if you just wait til higher levels to acquire skills. It's a good reason to NOT do an IP-wipe or reallocation. Yes, I realize Funcom will never do it. I'm just trying to put forth for people evidence as to why it would be ultimately unbalancing.

Sorry, we did the math MONTHS ago on this. The skill system does not work this way. The cost to rise any skill for the first time is CONSTANT and rises in cost quadratically ( cost to raise last point + 0.2 * cost to raise last point). It is ENTIRELY independent of level. If I raise Psychology one point at level 2, it will cost me the SAME amount of IP as raising it one point at level 152.

You are wrong wrong wrong!

Snarf, go take a nap because you're once again not reading things correctly. I agree that the actual cost of adding a +1 bonus to a skill is the same regardless of level, BUT the ultimate cost once you factor in the current level of the character DOES change how much IP you'll need to spend to arrive at the same skill level.

Snarf, you are chilidish, childish, childish. Sorry about that, but you seem like you're a teenager agruing this.

[_______________Snarf]

> Gimme your level and a skill that you have not spent any IP in and I can tell you what level that skill is without you giving me any attributes. Can you do the same?

For the sake of entertainment, I am level 152 NT. Tell me what my Assault Rifle skill is at. You can't.

And you can't because you have no idea what my attributes are, and these attributes add, exactly:

(0.25)(0.4*SnarfsStam + 0.3 * SnarfsAgil + 0.1 * SnarfsStr) points to my Assault Rifle skill

It is for this reason that if I buff my int for 12, I get +3 computer lit. It's because I get bonus (0.25) (12 * 1.00) = 3
Complit: 100% int.

Snarf

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by zeroframerate


Actually, that's wrong. Your skill goes up according to level, not attributes. Those dependancies are actually related to your chance of success with the given skill and do not determine your actual skill level. The Intelligence Boost nano doesn't just raise your Intelligence by 3 points.

The int boost doesnt give +3 int, it gives +12, and you also get up to +3 MC with that boost and other int dependent skills.

[_______________Snarf]

> Snarf, go take a nap because you're once again not reading things correctly. I agree that the actual cost of adding a +1 bonus to a skill is the same regardless of level, BUT the ultimate cost once you factor in the current level of the character DOES change how much IP you'll need to spend to arrive at the same skill level.

LEVEL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IP COSTS. It is ATTRIBUTES (str,int,etc) that increase skills. As such, if you were to get an IP reset, attributes AND skills would be reset for ALL players, regardless of level.

Snarf

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Garzu
The int boost doesnt give +3 int, it gives +12, and you also get up to +3 MC with that boost and other int dependent skills.

Exactly.

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Snarf
For the sake of entertainment, I am level 152 NT. Tell me what my Assault Rifle skill is at. You can't.

Okay, a few simple questions.

1st, is the Assault Rifle skill a specialized skill for your class? I haven't worked out the specialized skills for particular classes yet, so if it is one, then gimme another one that's not specialized.

2nd, have you spent any IP in the skill as of yet?

3rd, how much of a bonus do your implants give to the skill?

Just need you to answer those questions first. Note that there are no attribute questions.

I trust that you'll tell me I'm wrong anyways even if I am correct, but I'm willing to venture forth anyways.

And, Snarf? Relax, dude. You so cranky!

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Snarf
Truth is Funcom won't do it because Funcom *can't* do it. THey SHOULD, but they CAN'T.

No, they shouldn't. Sorry, IP wipes have been a crock since day one. It's quite apparent past certain levels that IP becomes nearly infinite. At low levels you can't nearly spend enough "Funcom nerfed" ip to make it worth the entire process for an IP wipe (time and money). At high levels, you don't nearly need as much IP as you obtain per level. I see high levels running around with odd weapons simply because they have nowhere else to put their IP.

IP Wipe is a bad idea. Always has been, always will be.

[_______________Snarf]

There's no point. No need making yourself look any stupider

Anyone playing the game for any amount of time will tell you that you can't possibly know what ANY of my skills are without knowing what my attributes are.

Sorry bud, but we worked out the skill system one week after release. We've got all the equations somewhere too, from IP costs for different coloured skills, to determining diminishing returns to IP from attribute contributions to skills.

This will be my last message on this topic. You cannot change reality by insisting continuously that something is true.

Snarf

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Snarf
> The cost of skills decrease as you gain in level if you're purchasing them to a specific level, to the point where you can save thousands of IP if you just wait til higher levels to acquire skills. It's a good reason to NOT do an IP-wipe or reallocation. Yes, I realize Funcom will never do it. I'm just trying to put forth for people evidence as to why it would be ultimately unbalancing.

Sorry, we did the math MONTHS ago on this. The skill system does not work this way. The cost to rise any skill for the first time is CONSTANT and rises in cost quadratically ( cost to raise last point + 0.2 * cost to raise last point). It is ENTIRELY independent of level. If I raise Psychology one point at level 2, it will cost me the SAME amount of IP as raising it one point at level 152.

You are wrong wrong wrong!

Snarf!

No you miss the point. I, for example have never pumped my Pistol skill. With all my base abilities, my pistol skill is now 56. At a Nano NT, at level 1 my base pistol skill was well below this.

The kicker is if I want to pump my pistol skill from 56-57, it takes 8 IP, same as it did at level 1. If you do an IP wipe, you will give very high level characters the ability to save thousands more IP then they would have had they done things progressivly,

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Snarf
LEVEL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IP COSTS. It is ATTRIBUTES (str,int,etc) that increase skills. As such, if you were to get an IP reset, attributes AND skills would be reset for ALL players, regardless of level.

Uhhh, Snarf, you're clearly not even reading at this point. Maybe if I type in all-caps (the language of the immature and angry), you'll understand better.

Here goes! Apologies ahead of time to other readers, but this is just too funny.

OKAY SNARF CAN YOU READ THIS? OKAY HERE WE GO. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT LEVEL AFFECTED THE ACTUAL COST OF THE BONUS YOU PURCHASE WITH IP. HOWEVER IF YOU TAKE A LONG-TERM LOOK AT IP COST FOR A SKILL AT A CERTAIN LEVEL, THE AMOUNT OF IP NEEDED TO PURCHASE A SKILL UP TO THAT LEVEL DECREASES AS YOU GO HIGHER IN LEVEL. PLEASE REFER TO MY PREVIOUS POST IN THIS THREAD FOR THE COMPUTATIONS. THANK YOU.

Wowzers that's ugly to type in all-caps.

[_______________Snarf]

> IP Wipe is a bad idea. Always has been, always will be.

The main reason that I argue for it is that the significant nerfs over the last few months have wrecked a lot of characters. Changing core requirements, skill costs, shields, specials, etc. They probably effect a majority of players over level 80 or so.

Normally I'd agree, IP resets for the sake of allowing people to fix their own mistakes isn't reasonable. But allowing an IP reset to fix Funcom's mistakes is reasonable.

The second reason is that there was a particularly nasty exploit a few months ago that allowed characters to max ALL SKILLS for their level. At that time we had level 90 characters, so there are a quite a few people out there with far, far, far more IP than they should. This exploit and its lingering effects seem to have been forgotten by Funcom.

Snarf!

[_______zeroframerate]

Originally posted by Snarf
There's no point. No need making yourself look any stupider

Anyone playing the game for any amount of time will tell you that you can't possibly know what ANY of my skills are without knowing what my attributes are.

Sorry bud, but we worked out the skill system one week after release. We've got all the equations somewhere too, from IP costs for different coloured skills, to determining diminishing returns to IP from attribute contributions to skills.

This will be my last message on this topic. You cannot change reality by insisting continuously that something is true.

Sorry, Snarf, you can't say I'm wrong without proving me wrong. And just saying I'm wrong and stupid doesn't actually amount to any factual evidence or foundation.

Let's try it the other way if you're so confident about how to derive your skill values. I will give you the color of one of my skills, the attributes listed as dependancies and you tell me what level my skill is at.

I'm willing to work with you, but you're too stubborn to work with me I bet. How convenient.