"Exploits, Nerfs, Banning and Overequipping" by Gaute Godager

[____________eleetist]

Originally posted by Grupert


Well, don't know about you, but I can, as an agent, self buff into a gun 75% - 80% over my lvl. Now I'm 82, been using a 130 for some time now, depending on the rifle, I could go up to a 165 +/- 5 QL lvls. All with, as I said, Agent buffs. And with 125-130 rifle implants (full set). Lvl 2-3 more times, might be able to get into 140ish implants.......
I think if the plan goes into effect, a well designed Agent would be most nasty in PVP.......

Lt. Grupert
Division 9 R.S.G.E.
lvl 82 Agent RK1

Sounds great except for one thing.... A level 85-90 trader can ransack and deprive you for -150 skills.... this means no healing pet and you will probably fall out of your range for your gun, which means you will lose....

At level 85 I have a 630ish fully buffed attack rating... but a trader can debuff me for negative 150 making it effectively a 500 attack rating. I'm just saying traders my level...

Now that same trade goes from a 650 attack rating to a 750 attack rating by casting those debuffs on you. Which means he can use a 750/.75 = 1,000 skill shotgun (anyone in the game) to completely make you look bad....

Trying going out to 2Ok East camp and fight the dealers there....

That camp rarely is one of the more avoided camps in PM, because if a doc is debuffed they can't heal... if a team member is debuffed they lose over 100 points off their average hit. And I camped there for a couple of hours last night.... in fights I was not debuffed I'd crit on average twice... in those with debuffs I never crit once the entire night.... and that was with Subconcience Guidance running.

I almost have to think this is a bad move, because is is going to unbalance the game again....

[____________eleetist]

Originally posted by Grupert


Well, don't know about you, but I can, as an agent, self buff into a gun 75% - 80% over my lvl. Now I'm 82, been using a 130 for some time now, depending on the rifle, I could go up to a 165 +/- 5 QL lvls. All with, as I said, Agent buffs. And with 125-130 rifle implants (full set). Lvl 2-3 more times, might be able to get into 140ish implants.......
I think if the plan goes into effect, a well designed Agent would be most nasty in PVP.......

Lt. Grupert
Division 9 R.S.G.E.
lvl 82 Agent RK1

This will be no different than any other class though.... Soldiers will still do the same thing.... so will enforcers... and adventurers... and traders (who have the best overequipping buffs /w we can use)

And I have had QL130 implants in since LVL70... getting ready to go for QL150-160 implants...

My point is that they are not solving the problem they think they are... if the point is to stop the overequipping in the Lvl1-75 game then just limit the buffs a little more... don't rework the whole system.... It's pretty insane that a Lvl20 can get a +132 Wrangle.... In my opinion a Lvl 20 shouldn't be able to get a QL40 buff.... this would completely stop the ridiculous overequipping....

The effective change that is being looked into mainly give s a gross effect to Ransacks... and like I said... the East camp in 2OK is a good example that Ransacks and Deprives actually work.... Everytime I have teamed there we have to take breaks and wait up to 3 minutes for debuffs to wear off the doc... or you hear someone complaining about how the debuff is killing their average damage... and usually when I get there the camp is uncamped... while if you go to shades and BH there are more people than the camps can hold.

[____________eleetist]

Originally posted by Zuleica
And heed Nozzzs's comment;
"If I wanted to be in a world where mediocrity was rewarded while those who work hard to push the limits are scorned I would turn off my computer and go for a walk."
This exactly what is wrong with much of society today...try to NOT make it what is wrong with your game.

100% agreed..... I'd like to see added content rather than making every class homogenious

Make each class unique in some way rather trying to make them all deal the exact same damage with a different graphical effect.

[____________eleetist]

First I apologize if you took it as an insult.... but I get frustrated with the everyone out to get Agents mentality because a stupid level20 can get a Lvl80 rifle... while we become weaker with each level afrer Lvl 80... I'm not here to flame... Just looking for a more common ground.

Originally posted by D.Shaffer

A: Nanotechs have severe problems if they ever get hit by a matter creation debuff. There are a couple general formula's out there to debuff this stat. Unlike people with guns, they CAN NOT use a nanoprog if they dont have the stat up. This means you're going to get the same effects if we get debuffed. We're both doing smaller amounts of damage, the weapon user because his weapon stats go down, the nano user because he's shifting to a 'lower' set of nanoprogs.

This furthers my point that some classes won't be as effected by this.... Traders with Ransack and Deprive... and Metas who cast their debuffs. But I also want to point out that you should be asking for a way to combat that...

B: Nanotechs rely on their nanopool to use their main attack strength. Weapon users have a LOT more combat endurance because of this. It might not matter much in a one on one, but in PvM with lots of mobs, or in PvP in gangs, they're going to run out of nano fairly fast and then they're sitting ducks. Anyone with a lot of Hitpoints is generally going to have an advantage because the Nano user is likely gonna run out of nano and be fish bait if he doesnt run.

There are Nano-sticks and A buff that continually adds to Nano every few seconds... and a nano tech with a shotgun is pretty brutal

C: Meta pets, and pets users in general, are going to be severely hampered by this change if they dont alter the way pets work. I think this DOES need to be changed but you're going to get a major powering down of the meta's if the overequip rule alterations go through. (You DID read that part about pets going useless if they dont have the skill up, correct?)

I read that part... and I think if you read all my posts it went a long way to say that Traders and Meta's come out of it best.... because NO ONE other than Traders or Metas can debuff them... so I don't see how this wouldn't create an imbalance (i.e. Meta's and Trader's (a stacked ransack & deprive will effectively lower all nano and weapon skills by 150 points at Lvl 90) can remain relatively unchanged in PvP against the other classes as they can debuff them effectively).

D: Time to get out attacks. Nanotech rely on nanoprogs to cause damage. These take time to cast. At higher levels, these require LOTS of nano to use (see B) and a fairly hefty delay. During this delay, you can see we're charging up the attack if you're paying attention. During this time when nanotechs are charging up the attack, people with weapons can hit burst, fling, full auto, and do massive damage instantaneously.

Sounds like you should be asking for faster attacks rather than asking for the other classes to have things dampened. It's all in perspective whether you want to seek fair play by improving a class or hurting all others. But I guess you would support agents in that we are fairly defenseless to a triple special (full, burst, fling) that can if well skilled instakill someone.

E: There really ISNT that much out there to increase the matter creation skill of a nanotech other then implants and some fairly hard to find items and with the change in treatment, they arent going to get that much signifigant a boost from it. On the other hand, the weapon users usually have some fairly nice, long lasting buffs to weapon skills AND generally have fairly nice armor buffs that any NT would love to have. NT's dont have MC buffs and little to no armor buffs that are very useful.

Again... you could ask for some kind of MC buff! A much better alternative to making other classes worse or limitting them. If NT's are really the master's of Nano's I think they deserve one. but the buffs generally do not boost specials.... so you still have to meet Full Auto, Fling, and Aimed Shot Reqs... I didn't list Burst because now that there are a few with Riot Control it seems there are a ton of soldiers carrying Nova's way over their level.

And for a completely DIFFERENT tangent, what is it with this influx of 'Dont do this or I leave' posts? Havent you guys ever heard of COMPROMISE? How about POSSIBLY considering the other camps point of view?

I'm been praying for compromise since this first began.... It seemed completely focused around the Lvl 1 - 75 game where overequipping was the worse... and that is what they hoped to each with 25% caps.... since 25% has a much more profound effect when you have 4 rifle skill than when you have 400...... but they could have done a lot better in my opinion and just limitted who can buff who.... In other words If I am level 60 and can cast Sniper bliss... I should only be able to cast it on either just the people higher level than me... or people who are only a few levels lower and above. It would COMPLETELY stop a Lvl 20 equipping a QL80 rifle... Why... because he would only be able to get about a +10 wrangle and a +20 exp buff.... suddenly he can only equip a rifle that is 6 levels over his level... thanks to buffs... Now that is fair.... same holds true of Soldiers and Novas.... or Enforcers with Hammers... and it is Fair without making debuffs the alpha strike of the game... (Alpha strike in the sense you have completely crippled your opponent to the point he can hardly fight back.)




All I have been trying to seek is a way to stop overequipping without completely changing the game....

If Funcom Limits buffs, and then gives NT's a matter creation buff... I think it is fair to say most everyone would walk away a little more happy....

Either that or make a Face Graft (other) and Agents can just become trolls that run around making people mad by changing their faces to something they didn't want... (that's just a joke :P )

[___________D.Shaffer]

Originally posted by eleetist
First I apologize if you took it as an insult.... but I get frustrated with the everyone out to get Agents mentality because a stupid level20 can get a Lvl80 rifle... while we become weaker with each level afrer Lvl 80... I'm not here to flame... Just looking for a more common ground.

No, the point is they ARENT out to specifically get agents. I very much doubt their's a 'We hate agents!' conspiracy over at Funcom, and the constant harping by agents to the point of 'Funcom hates us and loves everyone else! If you were an agent you'd know this!' gets on the nerves. If you have problems with the overequip fix, fine, but dont try to pretend like Agents are singled out for inattention.

This furthers my point that some classes won't be as effected by this.... Traders with Ransack and Deprive... and Metas who cast their debuffs. But I also want to point out that you should be asking for a way to combat that...

Why? I beleive the debuff SHOULD cause effects. I have lesser nano's, I can open up my program bar and use them. Even with the 'fix' you're still going to have a rifle that fires. Why does everyone want things made easier for them just so they can win more?

There are Nano-sticks and A buff that continually adds to Nano every few seconds... and a nano tech with a shotgun is pretty brutal

Every few seconds = 15 seconds. For an amount of nano that really isnt that high when you consider our nano usage at that level. But I'm not complaining about that, I think that's part of the game. We should have a weakness and that's one of them.

I read that part... and I think if you read all my posts it went a long way to say that Traders and Meta's come out of it best.... because NO ONE other than Traders or Metas can debuff them

Sure you can. Go to the general crystals. There's a whole bunch of nanos that anyone can use to debuff some skills. It's not much but many nano users get the highest programs they can use when at max levels. You'd be suprised how much 'damage' a drop of 3-4 points can do.

Sounds like you should be asking for faster attacks rather than asking for the other classes to have things dampened. It's all in perspective whether you want to seek fair play by improving a class or hurting all others. But I guess you would support agents in that we are fairly defenseless to a triple special (full, burst, fling) that can if well skilled instakill someone.

That's the point. I think that's another balance measure. In this instance, yeah Funcom screwed up the agent some with the conceal. I DONT think the overexploit fix will signifigantly hurt the agents compared to anyone else or make any other class more powerful, and if it does (In this case, you're arguing Traders now, and I dont necessarily agree with that considering how many traders seem convinced it will kill their class too) I'd rather they lower everyone and try to baseline that way then constantly add to the powerlevel.

Again... you could ask for some kind of MC buff! A much better alternative to making other classes worse or limitting them. If NT's are really the master's of Nano's I think they deserve one. but the buffs generally do not boost specials.... so you still have to meet Full Auto, Fling, and Aimed Shot Reqs... I didn't list Burst because now that there are a few with Riot Control it seems there are a ton of soldiers carrying Nova's way over their level.

I dont WANT a MC buff. It's a balance feature. If I want to up MC, I'll get an implant. EVERYONE clammers for a new ability or power when they perceive a weakness in their class. And more often then not, Funcom listens to this. This is WRONG and leads to rampant power increase, increase in the toughness of the mob, which leads to that new power not being worth a damn anyways. I'd be happier if they just took away 'too powerful' abilities, but that has everyone crying out for blood.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Obitus


I disagree with you on this Garzu...

I think that overequipping (for the most part) is fine as it is. The only weapons I would question are the ones that only have one requirement for use. For the NTs that can't or rather, don't overequip a weapon, I think that some of your range should be restored and your pillows should be restored. I think this would rebalance the game for NTs.

I also want to point out (as several of the other posters here have) that overequipping is not exploiting and it really disturbs me to see the two terms being used as if they are interchangeable. Putting on the best armor and weapons within the confines of the rules of the game is nothing more than striving to be the best you can be.... Using an exploit, like duping, trading no-drop/trade items, and the double equipping of implants or armor is just plain cheating. Hence, it has been removed.

I do think that the HP and AC needs to be reduced on most mobs to make the game more viable for solo missions for all professions. Three yellow mobs in the main room is a nightmare for any charachter over lvl 100, and probably for under 100 too. You can't choose a 50% mission because you need to avoid grey mobs, but if you chose even a 55% mission, you will most likely face many yellows and some oranges in your mission. Certainly there should be a variety of mobs, but to put anything more than a dark yellow in a 55% mission is rediculous. If a person want's to fight red mobs, let them choose a harder mission.

I would also suggest more mob types and levels.

It doesnt help to disagree with me, the problem is that FC has given a good reason why they cant give us range back, its got to do with design. And for the pillows, they dont help me anymore, i use the best nukes without it, so there is no point for me to let me use 2 anymore, or 1. If we should get a range advantage, it would mean all weapons would get shorter range, except maybe rifle and except nanos, i am not going to suggest that atm, cause the flames would be many...

Turn down overequipping, and turn down mob toughness.

[Grupert]

Thing that bothers me, thinking about it is this, you turn down the mobs, but to what lvl? Are they going to be weaker than the player? And if so, what class? If they are made so that weak non combat classes can have a chance, then would not say an enforcer just waste everything in sight?
In other words, you will have the combat classes having few problems doing missions, they will level faster, causing people to scream, they are too uber! Then the mobs will made tougher, and people will scream..........
Grupert

[___________D.Shaffer]

The overequiping fix will help somewhat, IMO, but I STILL think one thing Funcom REALLY needs to do is give the 'non-combat' classes a VALID means to gain experience and money besides combat. For starters, signifigantly lower the price of materials that you can buy. Second, increase the stats needed to actually make those items so that people who dump IP into those trade skill stats actually have a reason to and that there's a reason you go to an engineer, for example, to make weapons. Third INCREASE THE XP for doing so.

Doctors should be getting XP and money making medkits and nanorechargers. Engineers should be making money and XP by creating weapons and other gadgets. Traders...well not sure about traders. Non combat classes SHOULDNT be as good as the combat classes in fights...but at present they dont have any other way of getting XP/Money.

[Noe]

pretty sure the reason why they *dont* give good xp for trade skills is due to macro'ing. Cuz it would be *possible* then to level your character just by trade skillz while you're not even at the computer.

Come back the next day and you've got a bazillion IP's to put toward combat.

[___________D.Shaffer]

You can combine items with macroing?

Anyways, if they have the money/patience to sit there and just combine 20 of Item a with 20 of Item B and apply Device C, more power to em That's what factory workers do..but it'd be kind of boring.

[___________Stanbeast]

I think the game would be much more fun if a person could actually solo misson for his items. I think the game would be much more fair to all players. Not everyone can gather a team of 6 in order to go mission for an item he needs. I am lucky because I have made alot of friends that will help me but I know some people that do not have that option.

Exactly what you do is up to you but you seem to be forgetting about PVM when you are talking about all of its. Funcom FORCES us to be UBER PIMPED in order to be ok at PVM if I had a gun and armor my lvl I would get UTTERLY OWNED by anything my lvl. That is why I have FULL ql 200 items in order to just get by.

As far as nanos getting debuffed and weapons not...... I think the weapons effect is reduced if you hit me with a nano that reduces my weapon skills.... as far as nano's.... its part of being a caster!

I would like to see things better but I am scared to see you guys change anything in the game..... every time you do something right you mess up 3 other things. Like pvp... A doc can totally own pretty much anybody (and yes I have duck exp) because YOU funcom reduced damage but ooops forgot to reduce healing long with it..... Who in thier right mind buys ao install it and "naturally" thinks.. umm doc he should be uber at PVP????? that is just one reason I am scared to see you guys mess with the game.

[____________drarkane]

After seeing a friend of mine go down quick in PvP to someone 4 levels lower than them. I realized the amount of Over-Twinkers there are in the game. A lvl 20 having QL100 armor and weapons on is absolutely Absurd.

Here is What I propose:

Everyone put a "strike" on PvP until a few things are cleared up by FunCom.

To FunCom:

Please, Upon death, send our equipment worn and weapons equipped to the reclaim terminal along with our other belongings. This will stave off "Title Level Checking" and "Skill Level Checking" and make everyone happy, including all the Traders that wrangle these over equippers. This will also increase the economy by these Over-Twinkers to slow down and plan their characters more efficiently.

Please Funcom, I BEG you to please make this in the next patch. This is Unbearable.

Thank you for your attention.

[___________KillBilly]

Originally posted by drarkane
After seeing a friend of mine go down quick in PvP to someone 4 levels lower than them. I realized the amount of Over-Twinkers there are in the game. A lvl 20 having QL100 armor and weapons on is absolutely Absurd.

Here is What I propose:

Everyone put a "strike" on PvP until a few things are cleared up by FunCom.

To FunCom:

Please, Upon death, send our equipment worn and weapons equipped to the reclaim terminal along with our other belongings. This will stave off "Title Level Checking" and "Skill Level Checking" and make everyone happy, including all the Traders that wrangle these over equippers. This will also increase the economy by these Over-Twinkers to slow down and plan their characters more efficiently.

Please Funcom, I BEG you to please make this in the next patch. This is Unbearable.

Thank you for your attention.

this is a bit rediculous dont you think, considering how often u die when playing it would be big pain not to mention, yet another way to make thins tak even longer. " sorry guys dont beacon me back i gotta get 10 different buffs to get my equipment back on" it would ruin any amout of over equiping and it is part of the game and would extremely break that attribute of the game....there is enough broken things already thx

[Flapsie]

Well do it easy then and set it to PvP death's only...

[___________KillBilly]

Originally posted by Flapsie
Well do it easy then and set it to PvP death's only...

then it would make the non Über people more non-Über and the extreme over equipers GODS, because they would be the last to die in pvp and their compeetition would get continiously weaker until noone could touch them

[____________drarkane]

Doubt it KillBilly.. The uber one's would die sooner or later..
And casting 10 nanos on you won't be that big of a pain..

If this were to happen, it would make these "gods" floating around a little more cautious..

[___________KillBilly]

perhaps, but think about what a pain it would be, or atleast i hope that wouldnt get done without a volantary ip reset,with such a harsh rule change it would screw up my character for sure to get my lightly overequped armor on and pistols i had to do a ton of implant swapping and run around for countless hours getting buffs stacked, and i still die often in pvm, if the rules get changed like that without a reset and a redesign of mob's and npcs in missions "meaning less hp on the npcs and more realistic weapons", otherwise get ready to be running 20% missions and paying hundrds of thousands of credits for buffs

[_____________Kuniama]

I don't see what all this fuss is about. I *really* don't believe you are ment ot have more then one set of implants in at a time, and the fact that you can (and may do do this) was a oversight. So people *****ing about having to get buffs to swap implants don't hold any water in my book.

The two most resonable sugestions that have came down so far are..

1)The funcom one. This will take the least work by the players, as all it will do is lower the effectiveness of overequipped stuff. You don't have to take it off, you just have to grow into it, or find a way to keep you buffs up.

2)Limit the buffs and implants you can equip with hard caps. The hard part of this one is that you'd need to force *everyone* to unequip once this took effect.

[___________KillBilly]

if it was never intended to be able to swap implants or ware things above what you normally would, buffs and iplants wouldnt exist. also it is a way to slack on some skills, and put ip else where. its the extreme over equiping thats the problem, not the overequiping itself, funcom has stated that they intended overequiping, it may have been a nearsight on their part as to how much was attainable,
I am not saying its not out of hand and yes i do think it is and it needs to be uneffective after like say 25%, lets not get too extreme here folks, otherwise you'll be moaning about the next thing they do to bring it down some. be rational you dont want funcom to overlook anything that might cause you run from grey npc's. stop yelling for nerfs and start asking for fixes

[_____________Kuniama]

Why would they not exist? They would *still* be valid ways to increase your stats and skills. What I mean by swaping, is putting them on just to equip a single piece of equipment and then taking them off once that is accomplished.