"Exploits, Nerfs, Banning and Overequipping" by Gaute Godager

[______________Emmily]

I am a lvl 45 Trader on RK2. I use equipment at the very top of the range I can equip with my self buffs, and have a shotgun in the bank that I will use as soon as I can get within a good wrangle of it. (Traders pretty much wrangle each other for free )

I haven't exploited anything. I have spent hours running around to get the Nanoclusters for the QL50 imps I put in around lvl 30. I did use MY computer Literacy buff to wear my belt. My character is a very effective Trader, and I have trouble with anything just 1 or 2 steps orange. I would hate to think about how bad things would be if I hadn't put in the time and effort. I am willing to go through a full unequip (big deal, I can put it all back in in about 5min) provided I don't loose any equipment...I worked hard for all of my equipment. I would LOVE an IP reset (make up for those stupid things you do when you are a newbie). If you are going to put a hard cap at 15% or so above my level, though, am I being punished for putting the work into my character? If a player is unwilling to take the time to put in worthwhile implants and upgrade their armor/weapons...why should they be ''ballanced'' up to the level of someone who has? If you want to 'ballance' something, ballance your world! I shouldn't be hearing all these 60+ characters *****ing about how they can't take Yellow mobs with their combat characters. That is a sign that the game is unballanced, not the players. Before you monkey around with the player mechanics again (and we know how broke that has gotten things in this game), maybe you should fix the mobs first. The worst that happens is you make it easier on the players, wow. I think players would rather have to deal with being able to take yellow and orange mobs for a little bit while you fix the rest of the problems than not being able to take greens. Stop with the damn NERF-stick and fix the game first.

Emmily, 45th level Trader on RK2
"Events? Um, there was a pool party about 2 weeks ago I think...what do you mean storyline?" :P

[_____________TalinUK]

Twinking is a part of the game I enjoy, I could still have everything removed and with a bit of effort and a few buffs re wear it all again.

However in pvp buffs are useless unless against casters.

I would suggest simply checking to see if the person has the required stats to use an item and if not it dont work, or works at a major penalty.

I have seen agents lvl 30 with Ql 90 rifles, and they canot be debuffed, any caster has a check each time he casts to see if he can use the nano, surely that should be the same for all classes.

[______________Makade]

Gaute, what is this being "pimped"? Is it usual for you to use teenager slang? Is this a general reflection on the maturity and experience levels of the AO game design team?

I think I'll start using that word too. Yes, for my next house loan I'll ask the loan officer, "Dude.. do you think you could pimp me up with some change?"

Maybe at a job interview I could say, "After 5 years of working in the grind, my boss pimped me to supervisor and I got a phat bonus".

Or, when dealing with a customers, I could say, "Hello, Mrs. Doe, I'm sorry your gizmo we sold you is not working. I'll have the exchange department give you a pimp new model".

Please, let me think that I am playing a game run by professionals. Let the players be the l33ts.

-
Makade
Rubi I

[Denzity]

Exploits are cheating, it´s as simple as that.
One warning then ban, it´s as simple as that.

I pay real money to play this game and i dont like players who tries to inbalance the game with cheating.

Defjam

[elviella]

We got those great polls here, make a poll with different options and multiple polls for the different issues at hand.

In-game send a server wide message several times and inform all accounts by email 'Cast YOUR vote on the future of Rubi-Ka' and explain how everyone can vote about changes in the gameworld. One vote per user-account (easy, already the case), the majority vote is key, if more than two option in a vote. Then make a second poll holding just the two most popular options of the previous poll. The majority vote is binding, the game will alter accordingly.

Now if changes are implemented they will be accepted faster since they were majority votes and like myself will stay through changes that are not really my and their preference.

----------------

I also played DaoC, dont get talked into it. AO is WAY cooler!
(player economy non-existent, socializing? where, 5 dungeons in the whole realm! wow)

[___________D.Shaffer]

MAN is this thread growing. I posted my essay a while back, but to respond to a few other points I've seen...


>Non-combat class character complains about not being able to beat a yellow (Or ORANGE mob) without massive overequiping.

No offense meant people, but traders, doctors, and engineers, IMO, arent SUPPOSED to be able deal with equal level mobs like combat classes are. The only problem is, as I said earlier, FunCom hasnt given you a choice to do anything else! (And relatedly, if said trader DOES manage to take out a yellow, I think they should get more XP for it since it's a harder challenge)

>A nano based class can always fall back on lesser nano types! It's not fair to have our gun stop working if our buff runs out!

And you cant carry a lesser QL gun around because? EXACT same concept people. You guys can SELL your lesser quality guns when you level up. We cant with Nanocrystals. If they implemented this, just go and grab a lesser QL gun that uses the same ammo type as your main one. (I DONT necessarilly agree with the proposed solution BTW, but it's easy to work around)

>Implants

I never convered these in my essay 5 pages back... In any case, I feel use and overequiping of implants should be encouraged, but they should have a price! Remove the obnoxiously and ludicrously high Treatment skill needed to equip it and replace it with PENALTIES. As described, implants are supposed to lower your stamina and other effects as your replace your humanity with parts. I see NO evidence of this! have them lower your HP and/or nanopool equal to their QL AND add a signifigant loss of stamina, or something similar. Furthermore, have implants degenerate over time so they need to be replaced periodically. Another possibility is make it so that the more implants you have, the lesser effect healing items and nano's have on you. Make it a hard decision whether you use implants or not with an actual cost in the long term if you do.

[________________Suel]

Idea:

Remove all the current de-buff from the game.

Add new de-buff not affecting SKILLS but affecting the 2nd generation factors like AMS, DMS, DFS, ATT (I don't know their name but I know they exist) and so on. The ones we don't see.

Effect: I cast a debuff of -30 on "the_attack_roll_of_my_opponent" and he, for the period of duration, hit less often and/or do less damage.

The problem right now is that the debuff hits the skills (thus very little effect on the real roll) and not the factors that really touch the equation in combat.

List of "factors" that could be debuff:

a) All the AC but in "damage" point: "Once debuffed, you will suffer 10% more of Chemical attack..."
b) Attack rate: hit less fast add +1-2 seconds to hit
c) Attack damage: Do less damage -10 anyone?
d) Critical %: Get less crits -3%
...

This done, it is something new so no nerf (Except if you think that removing the current de-buff is a nerf. You could even leave them there).

It's drastically effective, even on over-equipper (-20% damage output for a period is WAY effective no?

It's still about strategy (I do chemical damage, I will debuff my opponent so he will suffer 20% of my damage...)

And it lead to new horizon. Think about a nano line to "prevent" debuffing!!! The line prevent the temporary lost of knowledge and or ability or armor effectiveness or contact with the nanobots so it "prevent the debuff".

Just some though I feel won't be read... (too much post in there to think they will all be read.)

[TemplarRed]

A great deal of what's being called for here is quite terrifying, considering Funcom's tendency to respond to subscribers' demands. Some people just don't understand what they're asking for...

DON'T unequip anything off anyone with a patch. Someone people are bound to lose some stuff. More than likely, it will be honest, hard-working players who never did anything wrong. Besides, there's no need. All gear will become outgrown & obsolete, sooner or later, as characters level.

DON'T re-allocate IP. There were (or are?) rings in the game that granted bonus IP, yes? I can't imagine that the individual configs & actions of every single player have been logged, at every single moment. Once again, someone innocent is bound to get screwed.

DON'T further restrict equipping. Not via item disabling, not via item unequipping when the required skill levels are no longer met. Not even via any of these 'high-ceiling' methods proposed by players; this affect all the professions to different degrees. The ability to equip heavy-duty weapons is one of the main perks to playing a number of the professions (Agents, Enforcers, & Traders). Removing a Trader's ability to equip high-ql weapons would be like removing a Doctor's ability to heal.
To apply one of these 'mild restrictions' (permitting a certain percentage of over-equipping; +20% ql above player level or whatever) would simply gimp some of the weapon users (again, Agents, Enforcers, & Traders), & have much lesser affect on others (Soldiers, who employ weapon-switching tactics, & don't often 'over-equip' to the same degree).

DON'T induce a sliding fumble-increase penalty, or a weapon-performance penalty for optimizers who no longer meet skill requirements. These 'invisible' factors would be nearly impossible to troubleshoot if bugs/failures should arise (& this 'bug' would quickly become the whiners' pet scapegoat, even if working properly). Plus, it'd still be spoiling the fruits from our hard labour. What would drive us to excel if there is no reward?

DON'T have the status of our equipped gear effect how we 'con' in any way. Once again, it would remove the reward for careful & precise character building. Also, we'd have a completely new can of worms: People would be able to use equipment-swapping as a shield in PvP. If you're losing a duel, & the level difference circumstances are correct, you could equip all of your ql 1 gear. Now you con grey, & can no longer be attacked by your opponent.

Your players enjoy an enormous sense of accomplishment by attaining & using the best gear possible. People expect to be rewarded for hard work, patience, & careful planning. This is not a game design flaw, people... no matter how jealous you may feel. Stop crying 'unfair' on account that you're too lazy to bother optimizing your character. Everyone is able to optimize, not just weapon-users (every profession makes use of armor & implants).

No one ever decided to change the rules of chess, for example, just because the game was too complex, or 'unfair', because an experienced chess player will excel when compared to a beginner.

If this was a chess forum, some people here would probably like to see the queen nerfed... she should be 'balanced', yes? Or perhaps every piece should only move one space at a time. Then the people who don't have the time & patience to be bothered with learning strategy would be much happier.

-Templar Red

[____________Tamanaka]

I agree with most of the post on exploiters and banning - warn once, then ban that account permanently (not credit card, you will end up banning some people who are not at fault).

Over-equipping however I don't agree on. First, let me state that in my mind over-equipping is defined as using a bug to equip items beyond your level (e.g. the broken clinics stacking treatment buffs to install implants). Nano buffs which can legally be cast by a player, either personally or by another, which are used to equip items is NOT over-equipping.

[next paragraph edited]
It seems to me that over-equipping belts and NCU was fixed by making the Fixer Comp Lit buff self only. Techinically, by my rules, this should not be considered over-equipping, but I think this was probably a big over-sight on Funcom's part. IP has to be wiped - besides just correcting exploits it would allow players to redistribute IP for skills that have been nerfed or still do not work.

Then fix everything that was equipped BEFORE you fixed the exploits. Set a time and annouce it, give plenty of advance warning, then de-equip everything. This had better be well tested before it is done though - no disappearing equipment. Dump everything in the Bank. People will only be able to put belts and NCU back with the rules that are now in place. For implants, do one of two things. Either raise the attribute requirement or make all Treatment buffs non-stackable - at least make the attribute req based on a non-buff value. Once again, people would only be able to re-install implants at a more reasonable QL. De-equipping should only be done once per character at login after a given date - none of this check at every zone stuff, that's just annoying. Seems like this would fix most of the "real" over-equipping problems.

At least try something along these lines before you go crazy adjusting all kinds of things. Whatever you do, the changes should not come all at once. I recommend just what I have posted above, then if additional changes need to be made to rebalance PvM or PvP, do it a step at a time. What I have listed above will cause many players weeks of re-adjusting as it is. Except for mob health, if you remove over-equipping then you have to drop mob health on missions. At least fix the problems caused by exploits - an all out de-equip and IP wipe.

Debuffs - I don't think any change should be made here. Nanocasters do lose the ability to cast some nanos, but they can quickly switch to a lower Nano. My Adv gets debuffed all the time and I am able to quickly switch to lower heals. Everyone acts as though debuffing a weapon user does nothing, but I have not seen this. When an attack skill is debuffed, you do less damage and have less chance to crit. Decrease damage for too low of a skill? You already do less damage when the skill is debuffed. You don't just raise those skills to equip things, you raise it to continue to be able to even hit the mobs... IF you force a weapon user to switch to a lower QL weapon to be able to fight with a debuff, they have the additional equipping time that Nano casters won't - then it becomes unbalanced the other way. Plus Nanos weigh nothing and take no pack space, weapons do. Finally armor - why change this? It's equal for everyone now - no one loses AC when they get a debuff. Why even include it in this? If you fix the ability to over-equip (remember - defined as using a bug to over-equip), there should be no need to change damage output of a weapon due to a debuff, it already occurs. Maybe Nanocasters should raise some of their defense skills?

And fix the green skin - it's annoying too.

[«¤ W¥RM ¤»]

I agree with the argument made by D.Shaffer ...

People can sell weapons when they outgrow them, thereby generating income which can be
used toward the purchase of the upgraded weapon. Nanoprograms cannot be sold when they are
no longer of use to us though. This seems to make sense in an in-game sort of way.
If you think of a program as a "idea" which you have to learn, and the nanocrystal as
the "research" that goes into learning that program/skill/ability/etc, then it makes sense
that there is no physical component left.

However, I think Funcom could implement some way of "sharing the knowlege" which you have
learned - perhaps only individuals which specialize in nanoprograms, or nanoprogramming,
(not sure which professions this applies to specifically), or maybe have the tutoring (if it
is ever fixed) tie into this so that one can gain XP from teaching another (who is qualified by
stat requirement & profession-if applicable) the "formula".

This sort of thing could tie into the MA profession as well, as they don't have any old weapons to
sell and thereby generate money either. They could also take advantage of "sharing the knowlege" of
thier skills, and (suggestion) gain XP from this instruction.

This does not help in a monetary way, but maybe gaing some XP for this would somehow balance
this in a small way. ( ? ? ? )

That would be kind of cool, and would tie into the storyline, if indeed that is the reason
driving it. (?) Of course, tutoring would need to be fixed first.

Re D. Shaffer's comments on Implants:

I don't necessarily think removing the treatment skill is wise, as it makes
sense that you would need some sort of skill to modify the human(oid) body.
Perhaps just lower the treatment skill slightly. It shouldn't matter what QL
the implant is, adding an eye implant is going to have the same risks involved
no matter what the QL of the implant. Instead lower the treatment skill (not
removing it completely) and replace it with Penalties corresponding to the
appropriate QL. As QL increases, make the penalties more severe.

I don't remember reading that Implants were supposed to lower your stamina and
other effects as your replace your humanity with parts* but maybe I over looked something?

I think the idea of penalties on implants will fit nicely with the story, although not
as specified here. I mean - we have implants that increase STAMINA/HITPOINTS/NANOPOOL,
so why make that a penalty...
very simplified example) I have a certain amount of stamina
by installing an implant, I take a penalty of a lowered stamina,
however my implant increases my stamina, so I am back to my initial level of stamina
what was the point? (of course the implant may do other things, but still, you get my point)
Instead, building on the original theory, I think the implant should affect other things...
because supposedly "...other effects as your replace your humanity with parts".
I think that this is a pretty cool theory and reminds me of a specific game & series of novels
which dealt with the very same issues of implants in the RPG/novel series called Shadowrun.
I believe that the Shadowrun environment also allowed these implants, called Cyberware, to
increase physical factors, such as STR, STA, reflexes, speed, etc. (Which would mean that the more combat orientated
types would generally use these more (ENF,SOL,MA). The penalty for these modifiers
included resistance to positive (and probably other) magic use upon the individual (relate this to the
fact that NF are programs that are designed to integrate with the chemicals and cellular structures of
human(oid) creatures. The less human(oid) components that the target has, the greater the likelihood that
these programs (such as healing NF's) will not work to their full potential on the subject. Also, another
penalty is that the human(oid) body has an immune system that will be fighting these "implants" and such.
This immune response would have to be somewhat suppressed, perhaps opening the individual to greater likelyhood
of infection (certain doctor NF's). Implants, being what they are - non-living, will eventually wear-out and will
need to be upgraded, repaired, or replaced. This could be encourage doctors with high mechanical engineering
skills to prosper when this need arises.

I think, using the Shadowrun RPG & novels as an example, this type of situation/scenario would work, although it
would need to be modified to fit the concept of the Anarchy Online game, story, structures, it might be
a source of ideas, ...and although might be totally disregarded, these thoughts/ideas may just encourage another
totally different idea which may be eventually integrated into this game.

*Giant Megacorporations who own everything and rule the planet (or seem to), implants,
"secret" missions, being able to (eventually) create your own mission with your own motives & rewards,
(even nanoformulas)....hmmm..wonder where they got their inspiration? Read any good novels lately?

[______________reggie]

-------
I hate writing my opinions over again in 8 different forums concering "over-equipping" and I assume I'm not the only one, therefore I would like to link to this thread as I think it's one of the better discussions concerning the topic that we have seen lately:

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...0&pagenumber=1
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Apart from that, I would shortly like to say that I feel the ability to tweak and do a lot of different work to optimize or maximize our characters is one of the key features of this game, and if that is taken away from us I will kind of feel that there isn't really a game anymore.

The reason I'm saying this is that AO is lacking in other fields like depth, goals, team tacticts etc.... it's mainly about character building (apart from a good social experience of course). And character builup is quite fun in itself, but if we lose the aspect of being able to really work a lot on our characters (if willing to spend a great deal of time and effort doing so) that will be gone too.

That is just my personal opinion though, which is based on taste and nothing else.

---

I believe that balancing of classes should be based on quite maximized characters (like in Starcraft, where the races have been balanced based on their maximum potential, and then some races are harder to master than others). However, this game might have a too high range of tweakability. The best solution I can come up with is a "maximum roof" as to what level equipment u can be able to use. Like ie. 50 levels above yourself. And then being able to always use any equipped stuff with 100% functionality.

Then again, that doesn't make any sense because the QL system
has never, in any way, been related to character level (I easily use all armor 30 levels above myself without a single buff), and I have no beliefs that we will see a new QL system model that is.

Funcom, you will just have to work on this.

When it comes to nanocasters, I think that these should be given dramatically increased options of "over-equipping" (note: I don't put anything negative into that word when using it), instead of the fighting classes being nerfed. (And then of course the nano casters would have to be rebalanced to adjust to this new "boost", as I assume the classes are already somewhat balanced when it comes to character end result).

--
Finally, and moving on to the more analytic way of thinking, I really hope that Funcom is smart enough to understand (contrary to 95% of the writers in these forums, who never really see how a is related to z) that balancing the different classes to eachother is something that has to be done in a scientific way; very systematically. And that every time you do a change to one or more professions and the way they work, you also have to do a reevalution of the balance in concern, which as always must be based on nothing but end result.

The traditional example of saying that character type (a) has an advantage to character type (b) because char.type (a) can equip a maze 50 levels above himself whereas char.type (b) can only equip a gun 30 levels above himself, is logically invalid.

Funcom, good luck.

[«¤ W¥RM ¤»]

2.1 How Funcom should handle exploiters
I think that sometimes, under some instances, a player may not realize he/she is exploiting.
Because of this, I don't think we should ban people immediately.
I think that the player should be notified (officially) both in game, through an ARK or if they are not online at the time,
a message should be buffered to them, so they recieve it the next time they log in.
I also think an email should be sent to the account owner notifying them of the exact exploit and that
they should not continue to use it. (also covering what should be done...example mission dupe items should be dropped...or whatever Funcom instructs them).
I think this is important for several reasons.
1-it allows the person to change thier ways.
2-it is very clear and precise what the player should not be doing.
3-if sent in an email, there can be a hard copy saved or printed (for recordkeeping purposes).
4a-if the offender keeps exploiting and eventually gets banned he/she can create a new account using the same credit card,
in effect, stopping nothing.
4b-if the entire credit card is rejected, it is not fair to others who may have bought accounts from the same card...
example) a parent uses his credit card to buy a separate account for each of his 2 kids, so they can play together.
One kid plays fair, doesn't exploit, the other constantly abuses the exploits. Why should the kid that follows the rules have to
be punished and be banned from play just because the other kid screws up. NOT FAIR.
4c-don't ban by IP address either. A lot of people share a connection through a school or other public computer access point. Not fair to ban everyone for a few bad apples.

Once warned, if the player continues to exploit what they were warned about, they should get suspended for a month - with an email explaining why they were suspended.
If the player continues to exploit after returning to play 30 days later, they should be banned immediately & permanantly.
This procedure should be repeated for each and every exploit offense that the player is found guilty of.
Although I would love it if repeat offenders (constantly exploit,are warned,find new ways to exploit)
got the boot right away, I do think that this will wind up backfiring and someone who is honestly trying to play the game will wind up getting banned.
I think that each offense has to be handled independantly, to keep innocent players from getting booted for an accidental mistake every once in a while.
If a player's "record" is clean when we find that he/she exploits or is abusive, they get a notification.


I agree - it is VERY FRUSTRATING seeing people strutting around with their "illegal gear".
I don't PvP, so I have no idea what effect this has here.

Are people who are over-equipping their characters driving the economy? I think so. Just look at the in-game shopping channels.
Everyone sells everything at extreme prices. This is normal, rarity of item increases the cost to obtain item. Works in real life, works here. But
when everyone over-equips their characters so they can do really hard missions or kill things that they shouldn't be killing realistically at their level, they
get lots of money and since all these people have all this extra money going around, well, they can afford to buy all the stuff that they really shouldn't
be able to afford at thier level. Then, try getting something, if you play without over-equipping (sure I use implants that I can self-buff into and that I
can use the machine in the store for- but they don't let me equip stuff 50 levels higher than my character). Try, just try getting armor at your own level.
You can't, because if you don't over-equip like everyone else, you will be using stuff at or slightly higher than your current level,
while competing with people 10-20 levels lower than you, who have lots more cash, to buy the same item. The highest bid usually gets the item.
And how come Wiatt armor is not sold in stores? I can only get it from missions or from shopping channels.

The pillow:
While I understand the reasons for your decision regarding this, I don't think it is fair. there are people who legitimately try to play this game, by its
rules, and I don't think anyone should suffer for the changes you make in reaction to exploiters.
I suggest that anytime you change the game mechanics to change skill requirements or how things are handled, you should let EVERYONE redistribute how
their IPs were spent. Because changing something as minute as 2H Edge requirement to 1H Edge requirement might make A SIGNIFICANT differnce to
many players. When game mechanics change, but the way we spent our IP does not, we really get frustrated, as some of us actually enjoy the
challenge of distributing IP points in a way which suits how we play.

As for the following exploit example:
You will find no one wants to buy your hard earned nano-crystals or other sought after items.
Painstakingly made by using all of your trade skills or received as rewards after tough mission,
it becomes frustrating to see someone create them "on the fly" using a "dupe-exploit".
When this happens, it really stinks. And it happens a lot. What is the point of spending IP to have skills to make stuff, if your stuff
is not worth anything. What is the point of offering the skills to make NF's, Implants, weapons, etc if noone wants them or if you can buy
them in the store for cheaper than the cost of making them. It doesn't make sense at all.

"60% of ALL people banned (628 so far), come from a Faction still "thriving" in the game?"
(see exploiting, above).Start dealing with the problem and all exploiters will eventually change their ways, or be phased out.

How do we handle over-equipping?
Give armor, weapons, implants a range.
Make the program work properly if you have met all requirements of the item.
Make weapons less effective -example -when STR buff wears off, you can't do as much damage because sword is too heavy to swing
Increase chance to potentially damage item, as QL difference between character and item increases.
Allow Nanoprograms to be uploaded (to save room in inventory/bank, etc), but if requrements are not met, then program won't work.
When requirements run out (as in the case of buffed stats to use program), program automatically runs out.

The fact that nano runners are much, much more vulnerable to debuffs than weapon wielders is something I also would like to address.
Balance the class, give them other advantages to compensate for the weakness. make the benefits they recieve balance with the weakness.

Increasing in level is not as important as having a high level friend that can pimp you with implants and nanos.
This stinks for people who can't regularly play, due to RL obligations, not that I think that people who have tons of time should be
penalized for us who don't play as much, but it would be great if you can only buff those within a close "range" of yourself.

Connections and rule knowledge becomes even more important than role-playing and "honest work".
Make the skills more useful -allow us to make weapons, armor, implants, items that actually do something useful, not just make credits.
Allow a bunch of cool armor, weapons, implants, items that can only be MADE, not sold, not found in missions,etc. Don't make these things
too easy to create, or you have the same problem you started with. Make the TRADESKILL-MADE items more valuable (unique, special skills,etc) then the
regular items you can buy/find in missions and you will start encouraging the use of this stuff. Most of us don't use it because its cheaper to buy the stuff.
Make the story integrate more with the players. How you react to an NPC will determine outcome. If you kill the NPC, you can't "learn" the rare Nanoformula
he/she was going to teach you. Certain NPCs might know where you can find special Mobs/creatures. NPCs that are Omni won't share info with clan or neutral characters.
Clan NPC's won't share with omni, neutral. Neutral has their own agenda. XP for interacting with NPCs, if this stuff is implemented. People who kill important NPC's are
"wanted" by that factions leaders. Encourage PvP missions based on actions of players and who or what they killed.

Automatically un-equip all items you cannot currently use.
This is predictable. You cannot use it; it drops into your backpack
It's a great hassle though. What happens if your inventory is full? Should we drop it into the bank, or into a random backpack?
The bank doesn't hold enough. If you build stuff you got tons of parts lying all around. Bank doesn't let you rearrange & group items of like kind together. This would be easier.
Color coded bags/backpacks to differentiate items.
Losing an item you worked hard for is a bad idea. If you drop them to the bank, bags, etc. at least you could give to a character who could use, or sell the item.
Partially disabling items, and marking them in different colours.- Yes, good idea.

It could be possible to "temporarily" reduce effectiveness of an item while you lack the required skills.
This way, the item will "grow on you". It will be debuffed with your skills, but still perform some of their main purpose.
Like this idea also.

A suggestion I have seen on the boards is to reduce the item to the level "fitting" the skill, or slightly below.
So that "natural" item requirements would mean a lot.
This would clear up many issues.

The disadvantages with this are that nano runners still would get their nanos 100% disabled,
whilst weapon wielders only partially would feel the effect.
Make the nano-dependent classes handle this differently. They should feel an effect similar to the weapon wielders, although appropriate to their profession.

Another problem, although mild; it would still be felt as a nerf. Currently "everyone"
has items that are beyond their level.
Then "everyone" would suffer a little. Those that over-equipped well beyond their level (whatever that means) will feel it more than others)
If you are concerned with losing players due to this "everyone feeling nerfed", then create special "surprises" for everyone, like you did with the backpack. Make the surprises vary a little, that way, if you don't like your surprise, you can trade it with someone else, for something more appropriate.
Create a little bit more uniqueness. Don't give everyone the same stuff. Make variation in items. As long as the item is somewhat useful, although it doesn't have to upset game balance, everyone should be able to enjoy.

Another interesting question, should we treat different types of items in different ways?
Yes, as appropriate, not all items do the same things, work the same way, make it based on profession, so that everyone who over-equips feels the same type of penalty. If you don't touch weapons, but touch NCU belts, then weapon-based professions will still be Uber, but nano-based professions will feel nerfed, and vice versa. Make it dependant on your profession. Fighters should not be able to overequip weapons/armor, Nano-dependant classes should not be able to overequip NF-type stuff.

Should we totally disable NCU belts, but partially disable weapons and not touch implants at all?
that would hardly seem fair to those that abuse certain things but not others. It would not be fair to all classes.

As for implants, make them have some negative quality if used too much, that will make weighing the decision as to whether to use a lot of very High QL implants a difficult choice.

[____________Torozeta]

You talk about overequipping !
It is not a problem if a soldier level 50 use weapons level 80. Because if he had followed the rules, he is just smart.
The real problem is : EVERYBODY has to overequip fighting items to play at high level.

Fixers, traders, docs... If they want to do missions they have to kill, kill, kill ...
Killing is not the purpose of those professions.
I am an agent. When I want to earn a token, I kill everybody in the mission. As an agent it disgust me having to kill everybody. A good mission for an agent is a mission where nobody notice him !!! But if I do that, I havent done the job well. It is stupid.
Missions are stupid for agent, doc, traders... because the only things they can do is to kill, kill, kill

[Portulis]

I wish Funcom would describe what they think overequipping is. I have spent many an hour doing missions, amassing money, installing implants, selling or giving away old implants, and buying new implants. Occasionally I'll get a buff from another player to install a new set of armor, but mainly I get my armor from missions and install it myself.

If you take away the overequipping it will mean I've wasted hours in the game, and will totally change the mechanics....There should be some reward for building your character, and frankly, i could care less if in PVP some agent or soldier wastes me, that is how it is supposed to be, but if I run into such a character who hasn't buffed up, I think I might stand a chance.

[______________reggie]

EXPLOITING


When it comes to the exploiting issue, I would like to remind that AO is just a game, not a real life society nor a commercial company. Now if people find an exploit in a game, they will use it.
It has always been like that. Ever since shoot-em-ups on the C64, where you would always find some bug or unprevented response in the game that made you able to kill the end-of-level guardian mob without getting hit, it has been like this.

Not everyone will use exploits in games, many people will feel that it sort of ruins their gaming experience, and in many cases I will agree with that. Still, if someone discovered a minor exploit that made it possible to (ie.) buy some ql20 medkits and combine them with a ql30 medkit to make them all become ql30 (just a wild example constructed from my imagination), then I think a lot of people would start using that to save a little cash, and I honestly can't see the major harm of that. Funcom would probably find out about it quite quickly, and fix it in the next patch. And then everyone would keep being happy.

I mean ok, maybe someone found a bug that let them dupe a couple of Yalmahas. You either fix the bug or make vehicles NODROP until you can fix it (like Funcom did). It's not really a big deal. I think that permanently banning players for stuff like this is a really non-serious policy. Imho.

However, if someone found exploits that let them severely ruin the gaming experience for others (ie. instant deaths to other players, bugs that made servers crash, etc), and repeatedly used them to perform "grief" actions like this, it would be something else. I can agree that in extreme cases like that banning would be a sensible option. Or on the even more extreme, if someone were able to design hacks to mess up the AO servers. That should of course qualify for an immediate permban and possible Police report.

But when it comes to the small and rather meaningless exploits that people find, I would like to say to Funcom: just let it go.
People discover small things from time to time, and they're not always thinking so far ahead... many otherwise peaceful and friendly players that are valuable to the community might have tried using a minor exploit a time or two should they discover it. It doesn't mean they are bad people and it doesn't really do much harm to anyone. You make a fix or a permfix and let them go on with their lives. If someone clearly used an in-game exploit to say give them 10,000 extra ip, you give them a penalty, like subtract 20,000 ip from random skills, and a good warning.



Personally I don't even know if I'm using any exploits. I don't think I know about any specific exploits in the game.... but sometimes a monster locks itself into a wall when I'm in a mission... and I know that if I move a little around, it will free itself up trying to follow me. But do I do that? No... I just fight it to the death when it's locked up, not able to fight back.. ( this is only possible some times).... and that's just to save a charge of treatment packs ( read: save a couple of seconds sitting down and healing up)... now is that bad of me ? Is this exploiting ?

Now if I would know excactly how to move to make more monsters lock up like this, I probably would use that to my advantage a few times.... especially on the really hard mobs in missions.. am I an evil person, destroying the overall game?

You may think that I am, I honestly don't care.... Funcom may ban me for saying this, I have paid for subscription until the 23th of december and after that I won't be playing the game anymore... I honestly don't care. But I do know that I use a great lot of time helping newbies and other stuck players out when playing. I can go to really great lengths trying to help someone with their problem, and I enjoy it. If I knew more about the game I would probably have volunteered for the ARK program a long time ago. I carry the various equipment that I find with me for a long time, not because I need it or think that I can make more money selling it to a person that to a booth, but because I think that this sword can make a striving MA happy. My friends online call me a nice person.

Ok, I did not (lol) write this post to talk about how nice I am... and I know that I can be a *major* pain in the ass sometimes too... heh. What I'm saying is just that you shouldn't really blame people for sometimes seeing a small opportunity and catching it.
It's natural. Everyone does it. Just let it go. Concentrate on bug fixing, and in the exceptional case of something really extreme happening, you look into that seperately and do whatever you have to do.

[______________reggie]

Orignially written by Torozeta:

You talk about overequipping !
It is not a problem if a soldier level 50 use weapons level 80. Because if he had followed the rules, he is just smart.
The real problem is : EVERYBODY has to overequip fighting items to play at high level.

Fixers, traders, docs... If they want to do missions they have to kill, kill, kill ...
Killing is not the purpose of those professions.
I am an agent. When I want to earn a token, I kill everybody in the mission. As an agent it disgust me having to kill everybody. A good mission for an agent is a mission where nobody notice him !!! But if I do that, I havent done the job well. It is stupid.
Missions are stupid for agent, doc, traders... because the only things they can do is to kill, kill, kill

You have good points here. I don't think that they are arguments against over-equipping in general, I think they are arguments as to how the overall game balance should be altered in certain areas. Like how higher level players should be able to run missions and play averagely without HAVING to work extremely hard fitting on uber equipment and implants. And that missions should be more varied, with other tasks than just "kill everything". Fixers should probably have the option of getting missions where they must hack (or kill) their way through an enemy base and reach the control room wherein they must kill the operators and use their computer skills to hack into the terminal and stop the enemy bomber planes from launching within the time limit. Stuff like that.

Severely over-equipping should give a bonus to the players willing to spend a lot of time and work doing it, but it should never be a necessity. I 100% agree with that !

[______________reggie]

Emmily wrote:
(...)
60+ characters *****ing about how they can't take Yellow mobs with their combat characters. That is a sign that the game is unballanced, not the players. Before you monkey around with the player mechanics again (and we know how broke that has gotten things in this game), maybe you should fix the mobs first. The worst that happens is you make it easier on the players, wow. I think players would rather have to deal with being able to take yellow and orange mobs for a little bit while you fix the rest of the problems than not being able to take greens. Stop with the damn NERF-stick and fix the game first.

Very good point. I think they can change whatever they want, as long as they study what secondary effects it will have and adjust other affected areas of the game accordingly in the same go. (They are not famous for being good at this, hitherto).

-Templar Red wrote:

If this was a chess forum, some people here would probably like to see the queen nerfed... she should be 'balanced', yes? Or perhaps every piece should only move one space at a time. Then the people who don't have the time & patience to be bothered with learning strategy would be much happier.

hehehe.... rest of your post is good too.... although you have a lot of DONT's and few DO's.

Makade wrote:

Gaute, what is this being "pimped"? Is it usual for you to use teenager slang? Is this a general reflection on the maturity and experience levels of the AO game design team?

I think you should judge maturity from what a person says and not from what words he uses. I think Gaute wrote a very clear and decent article that has a careful approach to the subject and is good at seeing things from various angles and including a broad range of players. The way I see it, the fact that they use a few words like that in their otherwise professional language just shows a bit of humanity, understanding of and connection to the community.

Gaute:

Yes, for my next house loan I'll ask the loan officer, "Dude.. do you think you could pimp me up with some change?"

Yeeeeahhhhhh.... go for it man! ; )

[_______________Bjond]

[from jws] So you get another doc to buff you.. there will plenty that you're not gray to.

You obviously must play on Ka-1. At a guess, I'd say there are maybe 3 or 4 clan doc's that can cast the +80 treatment buff on Ka-2. I think I might be still green to one of them (I level slow -- play lots of different chars).

'Just find another doc" is typically an impossibility. I've gone *days* looking for a doc that can cast iron, which is a lot easier to find than the +80 treatment buff.

BTW, an IP reset is fine by me. I think I might have 10k or so legitimate extra IP from rings on my Ka-1 characters, but even if I still played Ka-1, I wouldn't care. 10k IP is trivial. Ring & /terminate exploiters probably have every single skill capped -- at least 100k+ false IP. The true benefit of an IP reset would not be to hurt exploiters, though, but to let me and others recover IP from broken and nerfed skills.

However, if any of my characters are nerf-murdered -- made significantly less effective (eg. if major items, belt, ncu's, implants, maps, etc. that can't be re-equiped are removed by a patch from any of my characters), Funcom will refund all my money. I do not tolerate bait&switch and I do not like paying for a sub-beta product -- and that's what AO will become if you make any major rules changes.

[Noe]

I guess I would just want to know info before chiming in as I wouldnt want to chime in w/o knowing all the facts.

I read the fixer's dissertation as to why activating skill checks would hurt him.

Can you please post what level you are, how much you are hitting greens for, and how many HP they have in comparison to you (its kinda ez, you just add up all the HP you hit for.)

Example: I have no problem w/ my NT soloing yellows. Not oranges, those are still VERY difficult to deadly if in a mission. Monster type mobs in the wild are much easier for me to kill, but a yellow NPC type will take me down if i get lazy.

Me: L52NT, nanomage w/ 120 token board (just got it, finally =) so HP's w/ buffs (Enfraam's and Stamina) is about 1130, nanopool at 1250 or so.

Grey NPC, nanomage type 900hp, opifex 1000, solitus ~1000, atrox 1200

green NPC, nanomage 1000, opifex 1200, solitus ~1200-1300, atrox 1400-1500

yellow NPC, nanomage 12-1500, opifex 1500, solitus 1500-1600, ATrox upto 2000hps. <--- these are approx as i just leveled and havent done many 50% missions.

Ok, I really dont see how if you can hit for 750 burst and 540 regular crit, where you would have a problem?!?! even if the AC's of NPC's 1/2 that output to even less, say 300, 200, you would be able to kill the npc within 3 bursts time.

So again, i ask the question...but i guess w/ a bit more malice...are you over-exaggerating so as to avoid an implementation of the de-equipping?

It seems every nanomage (and i dont mean just NT's, i mean MP's and Engi's and Docs and Bureau's of nano breed) I have ever talked to agrees, that something needs to be done about the overequipping.

Case in point. After the 13.0 patch, i finally got a chance to go test out pvp damage....notice i didnt say PvP, but PvP damage, lol.

I follow some raving idiot who wanted to assault 2ho on the weekend, and figured, what the heck.

I step out, and actually no one attacked me, which was cool. I saw the lunatic go down first, lol. She didnt last long.

I tabbed around for a nearby green. An atrox enforcer, but oh well, lets give it a shot. I unloaded a fast nuke, which of course hit for 1/2 damage, about 150pts. HP which of course didnt make a L45ish ATrox even flinch.... He hits me for 722 damage w/ his hammer.


Sorry, but that is just STILL not right. That means that he would have hit for 1444 folks. I have better AC's that some 20 levels above me. Granted I am still raising my evade, but that only means that the 722 was a crit. My AC's at 1100/1200/1000 on melee takes 120 pts away, so his total naked hit would have been 842.

THAT is exactly the problem.

Ok, so back to the Fixer. If you truly are having problems soloing greens in your missions, AND you're well equipped w/ armor and gunnage, then either, A) you're not very good (which of course I say tongue in cheeck just in case) and is probably NOT the case, or B) then Fixers DO need love, but the over-equipping STILL needs to stop.

Just increase the base damage on Fixers' guns. nuff said.

[________________Mage]

I'm sure this has been addressed before, but I'm just adding my input to this situation.

As with everything in this world, whenever someone tries to be a legitimate person and follow the rules, there is always someone else trying to deceive and trick the system. It is a fact of human nature: power and money are all motivators. Everyone wants to be the strongest person on Rubi-Ka, have the best weapons and armor, fly around in a Yalmaha, and have an almost endless supply of money. Some take the legitimate path to this, playing missions, going on hunts, etc. Others take a more shady route, exploiting flaws with IP and money, bugging MOBs (and sometimes, other players) for easy kills, and so on. I don't think the real issue here is punisment; it is a solution.

I'm a very active player, with an Enforcer, an Engineer, a Doctor, and a new Agent under my account. My Enf I have slightly abandoned (not fully), but my Eng, Doc, and Agent are all characters I hope to gain some power in. As for the Enf, I never really knew too much about overequipping with him past the general buffs. With my Eng, I learned how high one can be buffed, and the items one can use with those buffs, but he's still too low to utilize them. Finally, I have my Doc and Agent, both low, low level, and both with promising futures, providing overequipping isn't completely patched out.

With regards to my Doc, I have planned for him to become a good teamer, and a good buffer of treatment, Sta/Str, etc. If overequipping is scrapped, I'm sure many of the players on RK who get their money by buffing and working for others will be VERY, VERY unhappy. This is a main money source for many; it is one of RK's biggest businesses.

With regards to my Agent, I've seen other Agents, with super-powerful rifles, strong armor, and a good overall income. I discovered later that Agents need the weapon and armor boosts that come with overequipping to stay competent with other players, since Agent really isn't the strongest class to begin with. Pair that with a buffing income that will also become useless if overequipping is killed, Agents will soon cease to be played on RK.

Is this what Funcom wants? I sure hope not.

To end my rant, I'd like to state my opinions and suggestions on the current situation on RK.

1) Don't touch overequipping. Period. It would make many classes unplayable, and make the game much less enjoyable.

2) Fix the exploits in IP, etc. People who abuse the game should be punished according to how big an abuse they have committed, aside from overequipping, which isn't/shouldn't be an offense.

3) Strengthen the classes that need to overequip to become competent, particularly the Agent class, which is explained above.

4) Keep up the good work at Funcom, and never forget the player!

Thanks for reading,
Mage