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Thread: On Gaute Godager's Foray Into the Difficult

  1. #41

    Re: To Mescale

    Originally posted by potoole
    Wow my friend, you make more assumptions and personal attacks in your post than seem warranted by my expression of opionion. I directed my post to FUNCOM and Godager. It was a musing on what Godager must be going through in trying to decide these issues. Do I want to affect his decisions? Sure, all of us do. I did not personally attack anyone. You seem to have taken my post very personally, however.

    To label me as a not nice, power-leveling, over-equipped, non-roleplaying ego-maniac simply indicates three things:

    I don't think anywhere I said directly you were the above, mostly I generalised about people who undertake the above. Although I will admit suggestions were equally ripe. More what i meant was that I got the impression from your post of a very arrogant outlook and If I wanted you to get any idea of what I was saying was that you were too arrogant to see beyond your own viewpoint.
    Taking every dissenter and putting them into a group called the"Have-Nots" everyone who would make a change to nerf you.
    Things are more than Black and white, yes or no, have or have not. that was my main and admittedly Off topic point.

    But yes it wasn't a very nice response and I apologuise for that, Your response certainly shows that you are at least level minded, and certainly tells me I should restate my assumptions from your original post.


    1) You have not run into me in the game. - I have a reputation in game for being very kind and helpful. I spend several hours a day doing implants for free for people because of my characters high NP. I spend lots of time answering newbie questions in game and giving directions to places on Rubi-ka. People know they can even interrupt my missions to ask me questions.
    I would guess that is the case I don't often slag off my friends unless its unknowingly or perhaps if they are really wrong, so i guess I do uhhmm. But anyway no I haven't met you in the Game.

    But again its less about you as a person as about the Idea that the people saying that the change against anti equippers are the "Have-Nots" its a theme I see repeated all over the message boards and a baseless and pathetic reason.


    2) You do not understand what it takes to gain levels quickly in this game. - TEAM! FUNCOM has stated numerous times in numerous places that the deck is stacked in favor of teaming! Have you done it? Team hunting is my favorite part of the game and yes, if with a good group you can level in a few hours of hunting. You can also die many times because group behavior can often be erratic.
    Ahh but I do. I have a poor talent of not looking at a game for what it is but beyond the game at how it works, which is probably something to do with my cynicism.
    For instance AO runs on a set of rules, if you understand these rules and how they work you can use them to your advantage, simply this is what Over-Equipers do, the rule is simple equpiment only checks if it meets the requirements when its equipped, so if you manage to get highly enough buffed you can equip a better item. The flaw is the fact that the Item is only checked when its equipped which allows players to do everequiping, Its a game flaw which Funcom didn't see.
    I would imagine its something borne from lack of Experience in this whole Genre, which is understandable being that MMORPG's are fairly new, that said they are only Graphic versions of MU*'s so any experience with how those work with skills and such would have shown them this problem. Its a shame that they have wasted the talent of people who already know about game rules and problems that they entail and instead have found out at their expense about the possible problems in a skills based system.

    I also know that if you want to get any enjoyment out of the game its going to be more fun if you play in teams, I know this and I know well because I've played mroe than my fair share of online games, FPS, RPG, MUD's MOO's MUSH's I've even been an Admin on several of the former. (And let me tell you becoming an admin really take the fun out of a game). When it comes to online interaction team play is so much more fulfilling and rewarding.

    Its like in Tribes, you can play on a team of individuals, who all play their own game, and lose repeatedly, If you organise yourself into a team on the other hand you can actually feel your doing something worthwhile, and when you win you know you were part of the Team that made it happen.

    I know exactly how to "play" AO, but the skill on the other hand is playing it differently from that.
    Learning how the mechanics of something works is easy, like playing a guitar, its easy to learn how to play the guitar, but just because you know how the mechanics of playing the guitar works, if you know the physics of the sounds it creates if you know everything about the sze the shape the material its made out of, your not going to be any good at playing it. You need soul man, you need somethign extra that magic, you need to realy understand the rhythms, you gotta know when to flow when to really keep with the rhythms and when to break with them. When you keep to the contempry or when you go off into the unknown.
    Its the act of doing this that makes a genius to take a pile of wood and metal, or a bunch of zero's and one's, or a host of polygons and text and turn it into more than it already is.


    3) You would rather engage in mindless character assasination than offer FUNCOM any well thought out, constructive opinion on how their decisions effect your game play.
    Hey I wouldn't call it mindless, Misguided, twisted, offtopic character assasination yes, but not entirely mindless.
    Perhaps I let my artistic License take me a little too far on what I say, and certainly I know the message I am often trying to convey gets lots within the flotsam. But in response to the cinstrustive critism charge... I have already offered constructive critism on other lists, as well as non constructive.

    The tall and short of it is...

    Its Funcoms fault, they released an unfinished product and they're paying for it.

    The issues have to cover more than just one group of people.

    You have people who have used the curent rules to create their character and by being nerfed they will have wasted time building them up.

    You have new people who have a disadvantage from the other people because of subsequent nerfs, that have effected the ability to use the previous methods to create high characters, since these nerfs are based towards the higher characters, they penilise the new lower characters.

    Then you have Mid levels, people who have been rising fast but suddenly find it much harder to play.

    You have the powerlevelers, and you have RolePlayers.

    You have the Nanotechnicians and Martial artists that can't over equip to the same extent if at all. And probably many more to mention.

    All of these people need to be pleased, all of them have arguments even if it isn't heard.

    But putting people into a "have" and "have-not" does not do it justice and is selfish. And thats the simple truth.

    And the Simple fact is Funcom know what they have to do, they need to balance the game which is going to be more than just looking at over-equipping. Its looking at the economy, its looking at the mobs, and its looking at the players. The fact that they're 6 months into the game and they still haven't got it balanced shows their inexperience, its also typical of poor management of large projects not to mention quality control processes in such a project.

    My constructive critisms would be to improve their project management. Have definate achieavable goals, at the moment they seem to be trying to do too many things at once. concentrate on something simple such as the game dynamics get that sorted, then get the bugs sorted, then get on with the game, and whilst they are doing that they can improve and implement the stuff they haven't got round to.
    Now once they've got a good plan running their next thing is to introduce some kind of Quality system, so that they can review the steps they are taking or proposing to take, these will typically be inspections of the processes and such and I'm not going to go into the boring detail. They need to create a sustainable plan to develop, maintain, implement, etc. AO.

    If it makes you feel better I'll accept my faults, I am a cynic I am also fairly bitter about the world, the good thing about this is I'm generally bitter about everything which gives me a blanced but cycnical approach to most things. I'm not an entirely nice person, infact. If i was going to compare myself to music I'd say I was like ATR to a normal persons uhh what do normal people listen to these days? Cliff Richard? Lets say i'm an aquired taste ok.
    So by all means you meet everyne elses standards but no one can meet my standards so they all get the same treatment. And if It wasn't you who wrote the article but someone else I would have given them the same treatment.

    So again I apologuise for being a little personal, when I was really trying to make a point which wasn't about your person.
    Last edited by Mescale; Nov 28th, 2001 at 10:22:52.

  2. #42
    Originally posted by Spaycey
    Until someone can show me how to over-equip a new set of fists, MAs will be severly disadvantaged by over-equipping.

    Hell maybe I should just start using a big hammer like an Enforcer...
    How true. My MA has been using a big ol hammer since level 10. Level 27 and still taking on 75-100% missions. He's hardly over-equipped. His armor is about the same ql as his current level. His hammer is only a little higher then his level. With the current situation concerning MAs and their fist damage, I figure the only logical thing is to use a weapon. (Due to the ma+weapon bug, he's been known to kill dark oranges with just his hammer alone.)And starting from the beginning just makes it that much easier. =P (My dream is a 2h blunt mastery or somesuch ma nano!) Guess all I'm trying to say is look beyond the ma damage cap and direct some ips elsewhere.

    To stay on subject, over-equipping should never be considered an exploit. Someone said to put skill caps in. I'm thinking that if you're not abusing some bug in the game, at any set level there should be a max you can buff anything through the use of implants/buffs etc. THAT is the skill cap. It has to be there somewhere. So I don't see why it has to be instituted. It's already there. Some people have just found ways to 'exploit' their way past those caps, and it's that form of 'over-equipping' that needs to be looked at. Hopefully it is that form that is being looked at, and not the act of a player working hard to tweak his character to be as strong as possible through perfectly indiscriminatory means. ie: I have a level 27 ma who does 300+ damage combined with 50-70ish punches. Anyone who starts an MA should be able to do the same or better as this character was not twinked in anyway. (No money/eq etc was given to him.) However, if you ran into say...a level 27 ma who was doing 500ish damage, with 100+ punches, it should be easy to determine if they are exploiting in someway. You have the max stats a player can get at any given level through ip allocation. Then there is the max level of implants they can wear. As I hate math I won't try to figure that out, but logic dictates there must be. Then there's the max buffs the character can gain. All those maxed numbers added up should give you a total number that the character shouldn't have been able to pass. If it did, then it exploited in someway. Nuke them. =) If I didn't make any sense, it's late. I'm going to bed. =P

  3. #43
    Attack rating is not as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Why else could a level 6 put on a Q67 stigma and deal some serious damage???? If its as you say all damage would be pretty much equal since damage is determined by attack rating rather than weapon type and quality.
    This is a falacy.. not true at all.

    Three examples
    1) my hammer with a max damage of 780ish hits for 1200 (non crit) and with crit rating of 80ish crits for up to 2200.

    all that extra damage was due to my attack rating.

    2) one day I stupidly armed my Q66 hammer vs my 120 (ya dumb I know). This was a WHILE ago and I wa critting for 900ish (was expecting 1300ish from my 120) and I was like "did they nerf me or something" then I realized my mistake and you know what? I used to crit for 700ish with that hammer.. that is an increase of 200ish (or 35%ish).

    3) i was stuck with the same beam for about 15 levels, over those 15levels my max crit went up about 300 damage.

    Attack is a big deal, but a higher quality weapon does damage than a lower quality (dont think I needed to say that, but did just in case)
    I am Dnastyone Official Broom pusher for The Professionals
    Painmage my newest funnest guy
    PHEAR ME RK1 Yazule IMMMM BACK

    I would have to say that this is an typicall example of how an flame should not look like. You need to think things through and calm down before you try to write an flame... Im sorry but I would rate this flame with an 1. Aggression is to high, grammar and cursing isnt to well planned... Maybe he has an point somewhere in there but I dont even want to find it. - Centurion3

    ROFLOL

  4. #44
    There are no easy solutions to this as I see it.

    1: "overequipping", what is that? A player who have used all available resources & legal tricks of the trade to use the best possible equippment? Or someone who used an exploit to do it? If you belongin the foirst category, what is the problem? As of the rules, it is perfectly fine, if the rules changes on the other hand, well, you will need to rebalance the whole game...
    I am what some ppl would call overequipped, e.g I have used my IPs, implants & buffs & cash to equipp the best there is to get, if I was to be deequipped totally, this would not change anything, I would have it all back in 1 hr of buffing & chainequipping implants, nothing illegal there...
    On the other hand, if you change the rules, the gamebalance & implement a cap or something, then deequipp players, many ppl will sit there at lvl 100+ starknaked with full sets of stuff they have used days & weeks to get in place which now is unusable, not to mention ****eloads of more IP thrown to the dogs...

    2: Exploiters:
    I understand some ppl have used IPs gained in "mysterious" ways, and I personally know of ppl with 1k tokens they have "duped".

    Hard to handle without going through every account of suspects I guess..Wiping all IPs & let ppl redistribute them would maybe take care of some of this & help those with loads of ips spendt in skills now obsolite by 6 months of rulechanges...


    All in all, stomp the exploiters when found, deequipp if neccessary, but when/if changeing rules & nerfing items/skills ppl have spendt ips to use, for heavens sake let ppl redistribute their IPs.
    Important thing to remember is that every change done, will greatly affect the overall balance, so great care should be taken and by small steps, as not to make things worse..
    Punishing the smart, hardworking & inovative is NOT the way to go, let them enjoy the rewards from that!
    Exploiters you can hang from lampposts for all I care.
    Hermy
    Shadelore
    Retired.

  5. #45
    Originally posted by starknaked
    A minor point, but no, soldiers are really not able to overequip their weapons. This is because they rely on too many skills like burst and full auto and flingshot, which really can't be buffed much or at all.

    Whereas, some professions are able to massively overequip their weapons due to their weapons only requiring 1 or 2 skills which are highly buffable.

    However, soldiers don't need to overequip, because just the weapons they can equip normally do huge damage.
    Well they can't equip them as easily as Agents or Fixers, but
    I've helped many 90+ soldiers equip QL200 Nova Flows with Riot Control that does +110 Burst, but then they can't use their Flashpoint, but thats fine. It is true that their weapons are incredibly effective, my QL200 rifles can't really hold a candle to QL200 Nova Flow.

  6. #46
    I've decided to dust-off my lvl 70 soldier equipped with ql 83 nova which I stopped playing about 2 months ago. 2 months ago I was able to go up about 3 lvls a night with a group of friends. And at the time, I felt at par with my team-mates in terms of damage done.

    Something has changed since then. I felt definitely underpowered, both against the mobs, as well as compared to people in my group.

    It took me two levels to fix that. In that time I found myself apologizing to each group, and thanking them for letting me leech the experience. Since then I've increased my AC by 500, and am now wielding ql 113 gun. in 4 more levels I will try to put on a ql 151 nova.

    I, think 2 things have happened to the gameplay in those 2 months:

    1. The game mechanics have changed, the weapons were nerfed, and the monsters became tougher.

    2. Everyone is now buffed up to the max, a result of people learning from their mistakes (or perhaps responding to change in game play - remember patch 13.0 mission changes?), and applying them to new characters

    I would tend to believe 2 was a response to 1.

    So why now, after things were fixed (read: nerfed and made tougher for the players) are we going through another iteration? What's the point? Is it to make it tougher to do missions and level?

    AO is about a lot of things. To me, there are 2; experience and money.

    Unless I'm well (over?) equipped, I can't acquire either. In missions I die, or have to heal so often, that money gained is lost on supplies. In a group I can't be weak, or no one will group with me.

    Thus far, I've yet to see anything made to improve the damage done by a player character. Everything that's good is being removed from the game. Example: couple of days ago I saw a doctor wielding 2 QL60 sparkling arms FAs (3971 or whatever they used to be called). They are no longer in the game, and are trade item only. I asked her to show me the stats on one of them. The stats matched those of my QL113 nova, except that the recycle rate of the FAs was faster (read: 2 matching QL113 FAs with fling-shot would be 4 times as good as my current nova)

    Why is funcom making this game harder and harder to play? I always thought that satisfaction in real life comes from achievement. It does not, however, come from being frustrated and having to zone 20 times, because the first room in a mission consists of 3 healing orange mobs. Mobs who now root, and deal 1000hp damage with their nano spells. Chests which won't open, and when they do, they are empty (read: so that now I have to sink the IP into evasion, and break and entry skills).

    Every change made to the game costs people to loose the IP they have put into the skills. There is a separate thread about concealment. As it is now, the concealment skill is broken. I've put about 350 IP into it so far. IP that I could have used towards nano, and my false professions. There is no way to get it back now, and I'm sure I'm not the only character out there who feels the same way.

    I think that the game engine was written by some very talented people. I'm surprised by the lack of mathematical skills being shown by the funcom staff who is writing current patches. (example 40% damage cap in pvp -> soldiers can still kill with alpha strike -> so we nerf soldiers now). Has any one of them played this game past the newbie area? It should be easy to generate a, say lvl 50 char, equip them "legally" (preferrably in low tech armor shorts), select a 75% mission and have a whack at it. Come on, it will be fun It will take you only 1 day to finish that mission with QL75 silver swimming trunks as a reward, and only 1 week to level.

    Which just may be the plan, as one level/week implies 50 levels per year, and everyone would be level 200 by the time the story is done.

    P.S. While my soldier was on vacation, my other character in game was an agent. She is currently at lvl 62 and is wielding quality 132 lovemaker, soon to be replaced by ql 153 one. She deals out 600 averages and 1600 crits about every 3rd shot. Every rifle used was always self-equipped, except for the last one which required +74 wrangle. This is necessary, as with the aimed shot broken (and not always useful - broken concealment) I need to start thinking as a soldier now...

    Which IMHO sucks.

  7. #47
    Mobs hp/ac was increased in response to char's ability to equip ql200 weapons/armor/items far to early.

    If there was a skill check on using the stuff instead of equipping it this would not have happened. As a side effect, casters and MA's got nerfed because they are either skillchecked when using NF's or can't equip ql200 'hands'. Also it must be better for all profs to have some 'new' and better ql stuff to play and lvl for after lvl~110.

    I think FC should do skill check on using stuff, not just NF's and at the same time reduce hp/ac on mobs.

    Nanogater
    NT = Nerfed Technician

    My doctor told me I am paranoid, so I shot him.

    Obviously he was an alien agent sent here to kill me...and he did not come alone!

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