Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Lunartikk
In all honesty i think this patch will ruin the game that we have right now, and i think a lot of people will b leaving

OE is i think part of the complex game structure we have, in Quake for example u spend hours playin with yer mouse to get good, to me in AO the same applies with OE, people spend hours choosing their proffession equipping to the best their char can take and meking a Char as powerfull as they can with clever buffing imps etc, i have heard the argument that people think its a money problem, and to a certain degree its possible this is true, but the simple fact is that people dont like OE's because they die when they fight them, I dont OE and regually die when caught in PvP but thats my fault, i dont spend the time fine tuning my char to beat them, asfar as me and most of my freinds are conserned the only people that complain r n00bs that cant or dont want to get good at the game by spending time preparing for PvP, its gonna change the game so much that u should seriousley rename it and flog it as a new game, cos it aint gonna b AO baby

*sigh*...If overequipping only affected PvP, do you honestly think there would be this much arguing over whether or not to fix it? But the mobs that people who don't participate in PvP fight have been boosted to keep overequipped players from reaping too much reward from them. You do see this right?

[Neoncoyote]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


*sigh*...If overequipping only affected PvP, do you honestly think there would be this much arguing over whether or not to fix it? But the mobs that people who don't participate in PvP fight have been boosted to keep overequipped players from reaping too much reward from them. You do see this right?

You know what's really sad.
When all this started and I was in Trader form I saw what was happening.

If they would have just fixed the belt OE it would have solved most things. They allow for the excessive buffing that allowed the over equiping of weapons ect. I mean I once helped some under level 10 guy get a belt on and modules so he could get this massive Uber buff and equip a weapon many many times his level.

When I realized it I wrote funcom and explained to them how the belt issue was effecting the game... and still they keep it saying it promotes a social aspect. Well they could keep that aspect and give me back un destroyed classes. I really think if they would have fixed the belts pre nerfing 70% of the game mechanics would have corrected themselves. Changing the Trader buff to self only helped but still too little to late... and the Nerfing started.

It's sad really but I hope somehow this game comes out of the ashes. It has to... Unless Microsoft ever has the whit to start a ShadowRun game. I dont think they have a clue what they are sitting on there

*crosses fingers*

-Koyote

Playin' since day 1 All classes Pre and Post Nerf

[Lord]

=>Koyote

Atleast i can read and understand, since it wasnt me that claimed the poll was about if we wantet informatinons and futher more without my pemision said that my opinion was that we should ´have no informations what so ever.. so if you want to break it down to i can't be intelligent because english aint my main language then you got a serius problem xplaining to me why the above xamble ever ocoured ?

so.. if i can come up with a language that you dont master then your not inteligent or what?


if its so damn easy to set up a poll, wtf don't they set up a poll NOT for the privat and personal bennefision of Gaute.. (so he can see if we like hes letter..) but a poll we about the hottest ...HOTTEST topic of this month.. maby even ever.. in the history of AO..

but nono... you didn't see that train comming did you ?


could you anytime soon understand.. i don't care for a poll to gautes letter only conserning hes letter.. i care for a poll of what to be fixet nxt, a poll of the new patch, a poll of somthing thatgives FC an idear of what we would like, not what we think of a damn letter/report.

but okay.. since you disagree that these topic would be less interesting in a poll, would it then suit you better with a pool about what serial we eat?

[Neoncoyote]

Originally posted by Lord Cyrik
=>Koyote

Atleast i can read and understand, since it wasnt me that claimed the poll was about if we wantet informatinons and futher more without my pemision said that my opinion was that we should ´have no informations what so ever.. so if you want to break it down to i can't be intelligent because english aint my main language then you got a serius problem xplaining to me why the above xamble ever ocoured ?

so.. if i can come up with a language that you dont master then your not inteligent or what?


if its so damn easy to set up a poll, wtf don't they set up a poll NOT for the privat and personal bennefision of Gaute.. (so he can see if we like hes letter..) but a poll we about the hottest ...HOTTEST topic of this month.. maby even ever.. in the history of AO..

but nono... you didn't see that train comming did you ?


could you anytime soon understand.. i don't care for a poll to gautes letter only conserning hes letter.. i care for a poll of what to be fixet nxt, a poll of the new patch, a poll of somthing thatgives FC an idear of what we would like, not what we think of a damn letter/report.

but okay.. since you disagree that these topic would be less interesting in a poll, would it then suit you better with a pool about what serial we eat?

Ah this one was much Better
See a lil less hostility and it's easier to understand.

As for the answer on if a poll is so easy to set up why don't the do more. Good question.

The Poll should be very easy to set up.
I use to be a web application developer for a fortune 1000 company so I know it's not that difficult and they should already have something that generates them.

I would love to see more polls and hopefully we will.

I think anything that helps funcom in Anyway is a good thing.

And yep I can understand you don't care for it.

I was just pointing out why it is useful though. That's why this all started. You asked if it was a Sick Joke. I told you what the real impact was beyond it being a lettergrade for the writer.

I agree to disagree on the present poll being useful.

Truce?

-Koyote

Ps. I like Weaties

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


You still didn't answer the original question: Why was stun nerfed? Then again, I doubt you'll ever admit to reasons behind some of the 'nerfs' to the NT profession. Like the 'nerf' to range...

Oh, so you have no idea at all why stun was nerfed?? THats BS and yoiu know it, it was of course it was totally UBER. So, now we have a new uber ability, the traders debuffs, (been uber all the time, and been the nr 1 debuffeer in the game against nano skills, better than MPs). So we need to nerf it, make it useful against weapons only.

Originally posted by Kuroshio
The reason why I don't want to see the trader's debuffs nerfed is quite simple. It has nothing to do with PvP, which seems to be your 2nd major whine point. It has nothing to do with taking down NTs, your 1st major whine point. I've said before my primary targets are mobs and I PvP in self-defense ONLY. And as we all know, the mobs seem to ignore debuffs completely.

Well, then if you dont care about pvp, and the mobs completely ignore your debuffs, I dont see your problem. Its in PvP its totally uber, and traders is the biggest dmg dealers in both pvp and pvm, and they got the best debuffs and roots in the game, + 2nd best heals...

Now FC is going to greatly enhance the effect of traders debuffs vs weapons AND nanoskills. In my opinion the debuffs are already to good, and when they get boosted like they do now, they also need a nerf to balance it out: Remove the effect on nano skills on both the traders buffs AND debuffs.

Originally posted by Kuroshio
Why I don't want to see the debuffs 'nerfed', why I say 'force' a switch in offensive power for the traders by changing shotgun to dark blue and pistols to green is simple:
If they nerf the trader debuffs, they also nerf the trader's contributions in a team oriented situation which is part of what the OE patch is trying to promote.

I am not asking for a nerf of traders abiltiy to buff and debuff weapon skills, only nano skills.

Originally posted by Kuroshio
But people like you can't see past your nose to see that. A trader in a team uses the bonus skills taken from a mob as a buffer so they can boost their team and remain at normal strength. Some traders go one further and boost a specific individual on top of the team wrangle, actually placing themselves into the negatives. Now perhaps you've never been a good team before so you can't see how a trader doing this for a nanotechnician in his team would be a good benefit. Or maybe you ran up the level ladder so fast you never got to see it. But in team facing mobs on par with their level, a nanotechnician or doctor getting boosted like this makes a significant difference. Nevermind anyone else in the team that might suddenly be able to use nanos off their level from the team wrangle and how it would increase their effectiveness.

If I cant see past my nose, then you are blind. Traders debuffs is to good already, now we need to nerf htem after the OE nerf.

And it does NOT make any difference AT ALL if a trader buffs my nano skills... I cannot cast any better nukes anyway... except of course Last Joke and Kels, but they are not better, they only got higher reqs, and are useless.

Originally posted by Kuroshio
But then from the descriptions I've seen of your gamestyle, such as the raid by you and Snarf, I doubt you've ever seen benefits like that.

Benefits I have seen is in teams for example: A trader buffs with team wrangle, and the MA can cast UVC etc, but I am willing to pay that price... I think MPs should be the Nano buffer/debuffer.

Remove the traders ability to buff and debuff nano skills.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


No NT's can't OE their nanos without aid from another profession. Right now there are plenty of NT's trying to reduce the professions that would allow an NT to 'overequip' their nanos to one: Metaphysicist. That's the other side of nerfing the trader buffs.

Since when did NTs want to nerf the MPs???

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


*sigh*...If overequipping only affected PvP, do you honestly think there would be this much arguing over whether or not to fix it? But the mobs that people who don't participate in PvP fight have been boosted to keep overequipped players from reaping too much reward from them. You do see this right?

This is false.
The mobs were made stronger to make leveling take longer.

Some naive people accepted the 'overequiping' explaination.
But mob strength will not be weakened after this OE change.
Gaute said you already got all the AC reduction you're getting
except for a few special mobs might have their HP reduced.

Ye of blind faith are in for a major shock.

at level 100+ you will need a group to take down many types
of yellow-con mobs. This game will not be soloable to 200.
(many overequiped players 100+ cant solo yellow mobs now)

[_______________Evil1]

Ok lets see if we can make this simple...

I remember my first days in this game, i remember running around mindlessly as a n00b. Now i have put approx 8 months in to this game and have learned alot!

The problem we are having here is that there is a large influx of n00bs in to this game, and they are trying to go head to head with some of the more experience peeps on. After seeing that it is exceptionally hard, as in everything in RL, to go up against experience when you have little. Now there is a large stink from n00bs that say i can't do this or i can't do that, rather than try to learn what everyone on this game that has experience did... they want to whine and cry about it. Fc is listening to peeps, but they are not taking into consideration that one day these peeps, if left to suffer like we all did, will become experienced and will learn what we have. Instead Fc is going the wrong direction... they are taking what many of us enjoy about the game "unpredictability". lets face it do we really want to play a game that we know what the out come will be the majority of the time, or rather one where you are taking a chance and have no clue what lies ahead? I was playing WWII online for a period of time, and the "unpredictability" is what took me away from that game and kept me here!

Fc, listen to reason... you have a recruit a friend program to get more people playing right? Well who is better for recruiting people to this game... people that have played for some time that can give detailed insight to the game, or people that have just started and have little to tell about it from lack of experience. If this patch goes through as planed you will loose many of your experienced customer base, and gain support of those who don't take the time to be informed!

Basicly it comes down to this... If you have the knowledge and the ability to equip your self, with the items and buffs given in the game, then do it. If you don't have that knowledge... get it, or learn the way that the rest of the community did, THE HARD WAY

lvl 103 enf
lvl 65 nt.
lvl 65 ma

[____________VampHoZr]

No Text

[______________Lilith]

Originally posted by Scumbug
This is false.
The mobs were made stronger to make leveling take longer.

Err... if you want to make leveling take longer, it's easier to modify the xp gains, or the xp thresholds... on the other hand, leveling was too fast for some people : exploiters who gained level 75-140 in a week, and overequippers steamrolling the mobs of their own level, going after mobs that are red... so maybe it was to slow down the leveling curve, but the cause remains exploiters and people who overequipped to the extremes.

Originally posted by Scumbug
Some naive people accepted the 'overequiping' explaination.
But mob strength will not be weakened after this OE change.
Gaute said you already got all the AC reduction you're getting
except for a few special mobs might have their HP reduced..

Welcome to the conspiracy theory... only Fox "Scumbug" Mulder is the one to know that the truth is out there, all the naive people outside are manipulated by a dark entity!

Originally posted by Scumbug
Ye of blind faith are in for a major shock..

Its not faith, it has never been. But your belief that anyone who spent hours in a spreadsheet planning implants, buffs, ncu juggling, and stepping to have the most uber combo only to steamroll through mobs is getting increasingly annoying. Why are there levels assigned to mobs and why are there RED cons?

Originally posted by Scumbug
at level 100+ you will need a group to take down many types
of yellow-con mobs. This game will not be soloable to 200.
(many overequiped players 100+ cant solo yellow mobs now)

Can they play against a yellow at level 30 without being overequipped? The higher you will go, the less OE will have an impact unless funcom introduces items above QL200...

It has always been my point that OE makes the game trivial at very low levels, easy at 50-80, greatly helping at 80-130, etc... having it easy for so many levels makes people who never needed to learn exact techniques to play, if the steamroller approach doesnt work anymore, its time to find a new weapon and new buffs?

[______________Lilith]

Originally posted by Evil1
Basicly it comes down to this... If you have the knowledge and the ability to equip your self, with the items and buffs given in the game, then do it. If you don't have that knowledge... get it, or learn the way that the rest of the community did, THE HARD WAY

The hardway will hit you when you will reach the limit of OE, and catch up on your gear.

Lets see... as you level, mobs get tougher, your gear gets weaker, you need more xp to level. OE will no longer be an option because you already OE'd the best weapons you could a while ago... do you realize that level 100 is only halfway through the levels???

The higher you will go the harder it will be, because you rely on OE. If OE is taken out of the game drastically it will give a normal progression to the game, not a powerride from 1-100ish, normal gameplay from 100-140 and then a crawl to 200.

Some people consider this game as a race to level 200, OE makes you fly through levels, you feel powerful, ... you feel uber because of your hard work planning; and it takes game knowledge etc, its a different play style, but its killing a big part of the game. The progress curve is completely out of whack because of OE, mobs are not on the powercurve, players are not, gear is...

[_______________Leroy]

Over-equiping. No.....It's perfecting the game play that is in place. If you cant keep up then dont play. Dont complain to Funcom. If your Adv is weak let the social structure figure out a place for you. ( is have a 105 adv so I know something about the problems we have) Dont complain to Funcom to "Fix" you. Leave it ALL alone. People will figure out how to make it work and what plays well and what does not. Funcom is ripping the social structure apart and throwing away all the hard work lots of people have put into learning and perfecting the gameplay. And why are the doing this.....? Because I am stronger than you and you can't figure it out on your own so you cry about it. If a player is so strong that killing mobs is easy then it will become boring and they will find something else to do. Funcom is trying to satisfy the lowest common denomintor and shove all those who excell at perfecting there character into the same little boring mold. With this OE patch every Enf at lvl 100 weilding a beam will have the same lvl beam. How boring is that.
The whole idea of messing with OE when there are far more serious issues with AO is backwards thinking. HELLO....how about CONTENT!!!!!! The events are a joke. Lag is so bad you can even move. And what about getting around in AO. I you can make 5mil real quick you are stuck forever never see the world. That is a bigger problem than OE.

Funcom take note.....the game play is boring. The fun is in the social structure and developing a unique character that the casual player cannot build. Running the leveling treadmill in groups or missions gets old real fast. Without that sturcture and drive for a unique and differant character you dont have a game worth playing. It will be no more than a huge virtual chat room.

I love AO at the moment. But that will change if 500hours of buildig a character goes down the drain.

> just my 2 cents....dont take offense <

Jonzinator

[RebelWolf]

I'm a level 49 Engineer, and won't claim decades of experience with this game, like some can, since I obviously don't have it.

Even at my level, when I run into a monster that can debuff me, I'm in trouble. Debuff me at in AO now, and it means my pet heals and self heals no longer are available. It also means that I can't cast most of my defenses or create a new pet. This is a reasonable thing, and is a risk that I should have to face.

But if I'm hit by a Debuff after the patch, and I can no longer control my pet, very simply, I'm dead. My little Engy, with his little peashooter, can only take a green, if it's not a melee type, and it takes me some heal's to do that much. If my pet will remain controllable until all mob's hitting it OR me, are dead, or I die, then this is fair. But if just one Trader mob debuff's me, and I loose control of the pet, then I will be dead almost instantly, after the debuff is cast. I won't be able to kill the Trader Mob, since it will hit harder than I can, and my pet will be useless. What am I supposed to do? Attempt to run away, and hope it forgets it's ability to root me?

Since I'm in no way overequipped (I can maintain all my stat's, with my own weak buffs and implants, indefinately) I shouldn't be seriously affected by a patch designed to nerf OE, but I will be. This is just a message to point out a flaw in the "fix", since it DOES affect those who don't OE now. For us pet types, we need to at least be able to control the pet, until everyone in the current fight is dead, or we will have ZERO chance of survival everytime we meet a Trader mob.

As to PvP, I could care less. I picked a class I knew would suck at PvP, and saw that as the known disadvantage when I chose it, I can live with that. If we pet types are to be given a "fair" chance, why can't we get a "effectiveness" disadvantage when we are debuffed like all the other classes, instead of having our only real weapons just "switched off"? After all, while they may be less effective, everyone else's weapons will at least still fire, they don't get stripped and shoved into the inventory, like is going to happen to us when our pet goes into behind mode, and won't even fight to defend itself, let alone ME.

RebelWolf

[Doggan]

why do this the most fun thing about this game is to twink, and after this patch u cán´t twink then i think i crash the game !

not good

[________FileNotFound]

Your pet will still complete the fight. If you send /pet attack BEFORE the debuff. You're fine.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Garzu


Oh, so you have no idea at all why stun was nerfed?? THats BS and yoiu know it, it was of course it was totally UBER. So, now we have a new uber ability, the traders debuffs, (been uber all the time, and been the nr 1 debuffeer in the game against nano skills, better than MPs). So we need to nerf it, make it useful against weapons only.

According to the people I've asked, stun wasn't 'Uber'. NTs were chaincasting making it so players and mobs could never retaliate (permastunned). If it wasn't for the fact that the game mechanics were functioning properly, it prolly would have been called an 'Exploit'.

Originally posted by Garzu

Well, then if you dont care about pvp, and the mobs completely ignore your debuffs, I dont see your problem. Its in PvP its totally uber, and traders is the biggest dmg dealers in both pvp and pvm, and they got the best debuffs and roots in the game, + 2nd best heals...

Now FC is going to greatly enhance the effect of traders debuffs vs weapons AND nanoskills. In my opinion the debuffs are already to good, and when they get boosted like they do now, they also need a nerf to balance it out: Remove the effect on nano skills on both the traders buffs AND debuffs.

There's a psychological term for the behavior you seem to exhibit when it comes to comparing profession's abilities. I'd posted the term, but the board censors would flag part of it. Here's a hint: the last part of the term is "Envy"

Traders do have the best debuffs in because of their blanket nature. This part is true. But that's not the real problem. The real problem is what would normally be considered an effective defensive ability gets muddled in with an extremely overpowered class of weapons: single skill requirement shotguns. Shotguns have huge crit capacity, which can be tapped into by having skills beyond the requirements. And the debuffs also act as buffs.

Garzu would like to convince people that if you remove the nano portion of the debuffs, everything will balance out. But he's lying, poorly at that. Removing the nano portion of the debuffs won't stop a trader from hitting huge critical damage shots with a shotgun. What it will do is appease his whining by removing a vulnerability in his profession. Not that he doesn't face it alone, cause hell, even a trader can be debuffed just like everyone else. But what he also refuses to acknowledge is that it's not his decision to reduce the number of professions capable of buffing nanoskills to one profession. Without the nano portion of the debuffs, a trader can't help buff the nanoskills of his team and remain a viable member.

The MP is a better individual nanoskill buffer than the Trader. MPs can target specific nanoskills without any penalty to himself or the team, except NCU usage. If a trader stacks a single target skill wrangle on top of a team skill wrangle, the trader falls below his normal unbuffed skills and no amount of depriving/ransacking can bring him back up. Without the nanoportion of the debuffs, giving a team skill wrangle forces the trader's nanoskills into the negatives immediately.

Originally posted by Garzu

I am not asking for a nerf of traders abiltiy to buff and debuff weapon skills, only nano skills.

If I cant see past my nose, then you are blind. Traders debuffs is to good already, now we need to nerf htem after the OE nerf.

And it does NOT make any difference AT ALL if a trader buffs my nano skills... I cannot cast any better nukes anyway... except of course Last Joke and Kels, but they are not better, they only got higher reqs, and are useless.

And he's lying about the effectiveness of using nanos with boosted skills as well. The nano portion of trader buffs enable the entire team to use better nanos than they could without the trader AND without having forever for the MP to buff each individual member of the team. That allows the MP to target individuals and their skills to even higher levels on top of the team's general skill buff from the trader with no personal cost in effectiveness and less cost in prep time.

Originally posted by Garzu

Benefits I have seen is in teams for example: A trader buffs with team wrangle, and the MA can cast UVC etc, but I am willing to pay that price... I think MPs should be the Nano buffer/debuffer.

As I said earlier, it's not his decision to reduce the number of nanobuffers in the game to 1. Nor should he be able to say "I'm willing to pay that price" when, even in his own example, its not even his profession that would pay that price.

Originally posted by Garzu

Remove the traders ability to buff and debuff nano skills.

And the final part Garzu is leaving off in his self-centered "NT is the ONLY profession and my ability to SOLO are the only thing that matters" view:
When you remove the traders ability to buff and debuff nanoskills, you remove a big part of their ability to contribute to a team.

Garzu is targetting a vulnerability in his profession that annoys him. He knows everyone has this vulnerability so it's likely he can play everyone's fear into getting this vulnerability removed. He's using bent logic to try and convince people to support this idea, which basically comes to "Well if you remove the trader's ability to debuff nanoskills, he'll present less of a danger to people". That's true only if nanoformula use is a primary part of how you do combat. Anyone that uses nanoformulas to prepare before the fight will still get hit by the weapon skill debuff and reduced damage. Anyone that doesn't rely on nanoformulas to do their damage during the fight will still get hit by the debuff portion.

Speaking as a trader that has been debuffed by my own nanos, once the fight is started the only nanoformulas I might rely on during the fight is root and calm. Once buffed, the majority of my damage comes from my shotgun. And I can buff those weapon skills (and if you're the target, debuff you of them) in the opening shot of combat.

As a trader, I'm arguing to protect my profession's ability to contribute in team situations. Team missions are already on the Test dimension. And if you've been there or talked to anyone that has tried one there, you know that team missions actually require a team. Not just to get the mission but to survive it. Gaute has stated in his articles that while it was important to maintain the player's ability to solo, he never intended it to be more fun nor effective than teaming. Listening to people like Garzu will just end up satisfying people like him while reducing the options availible to team play.

Want to balance the trader's properly? Nerf the offensive capabilities of the profession. With the ability to deal less damage, the ransack/deprive lines become more defensive in nature. Traders aren't meant to be tanks, but the offensive power in shotguns allows us to easily become a primary damage dealer.

[_________________Zuh]

So much arrogant players



.

[_________________Zuh]

I got an idea: make a game mechanics test before allowing people to post.



Okay it's a joke

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


According to the people I've asked, stun wasn't 'Uber'. NTs were chaincasting making it so players and mobs could never retaliate (permastunned). If it wasn't for the fact that the game mechanics were functioning properly, it prolly would have been called an 'Exploit'.



There's a psychological term for the behavior you seem to exhibit when it comes to comparing profession's abilities. I'd posted the term, but the board censors would flag part of it. Here's a hint: the last part of the term is "Envy"

Traders do have the best debuffs in because of their blanket nature. This part is true. But that's not the real problem. The real problem is what would normally be considered an effective defensive ability gets muddled in with an extremely overpowered class of weapons: single skill requirement shotguns. Shotguns have huge crit capacity, which can be tapped into by having skills beyond the requirements. And the debuffs also act as buffs.

Garzu would like to convince people that if you remove the nano portion of the debuffs, everything will balance out. But he's lying, poorly at that. Removing the nano portion of the debuffs won't stop a trader from hitting huge critical damage shots with a shotgun. What it will do is appease his whining by removing a vulnerability in his profession. Not that he doesn't face it alone, cause hell, even a trader can be debuffed just like everyone else. But what he also refuses to acknowledge is that it's not his decision to reduce the number of professions capable of buffing nanoskills to one profession. Without the nano portion of the debuffs, a trader can't help buff the nanoskills of his team and remain a viable member.

The MP is a better individual nanoskill buffer than the Trader. MPs can target specific nanoskills without any penalty to himself or the team, except NCU usage. If a trader stacks a single target skill wrangle on top of a team skill wrangle, the trader falls below his normal unbuffed skills and no amount of depriving/ransacking can bring him back up. Without the nanoportion of the debuffs, giving a team skill wrangle forces the trader's nanoskills into the negatives immediately.



And he's lying about the effectiveness of using nanos with boosted skills as well. The nano portion of trader buffs enable the entire team to use better nanos than they could without the trader AND without having forever for the MP to buff each individual member of the team. That allows the MP to target individuals and their skills to even higher levels on top of the team's general skill buff from the trader with no personal cost in effectiveness and less cost in prep time.



As I said earlier, it's not his decision to reduce the number of nanobuffers in the game to 1. Nor should he be able to say "I'm willing to pay that price" when, even in his own example, its not even his profession that would pay that price.



And the final part Garzu is leaving off in his self-centered "NT is the ONLY profession and my ability to SOLO are the only thing that matters" view:
When you remove the traders ability to buff and debuff nanoskills, you remove a big part of their ability to contribute to a team.

Garzu is targetting a vulnerability in his profession that annoys him. He knows everyone has this vulnerability so it's likely he can play everyone's fear into getting this vulnerability removed. He's using bent logic to try and convince people to support this idea, which basically comes to "Well if you remove the trader's ability to debuff nanoskills, he'll present less of a danger to people". That's true only if nanoformula use is a primary part of how you do combat. Anyone that uses nanoformulas to prepare before the fight will still get hit by the weapon skill debuff and reduced damage. Anyone that doesn't rely on nanoformulas to do their damage during the fight will still get hit by the debuff portion.

Speaking as a trader that has been debuffed by my own nanos, once the fight is started the only nanoformulas I might rely on during the fight is root and calm. Once buffed, the majority of my damage comes from my shotgun. And I can buff those weapon skills (and if you're the target, debuff you of them) in the opening shot of combat.

As a trader, I'm arguing to protect my profession's ability to contribute in team situations. Team missions are already on the Test dimension. And if you've been there or talked to anyone that has tried one there, you know that team missions actually require a team. Not just to get the mission but to survive it. Gaute has stated in his articles that while it was important to maintain the player's ability to solo, he never intended it to be more fun nor effective than teaming. Listening to people like Garzu will just end up satisfying people like him while reducing the options availible to team play.

Want to balance the trader's properly? Nerf the offensive capabilities of the profession. With the ability to deal less damage, the ransack/deprive lines become more defensive in nature. Traders aren't meant to be tanks, but the offensive power in shotguns allows us to easily become a primary damage dealer.

Bla bla bla bla, never seen so much BS in one single post ever.... in htis forums that should tell you a little how bad it is....

You claim I lie, how pathetic. Typical to do for ppl who are on the defensive and know their case sucks.

Pay that price... I will no longer be able to get nano buffed from the trader... isnt htat a price to pay for me?

In your post you claimed you didnt know why stun was nerfed, you didnt care... now you say ALOT about it, and what the stun was able to do... So, what was stun really when it wasnt uber? An exploit? I want a real answer, not that it was "close to an exploit".

I find it amusing... only the traders can NOT see the uberness of their prof, and they also fail to see the UBER boost in pvp of their profession if the OE goes thruogh without a nerf of their debuffs.

You claim I cant see past my nose, I claim you are blind.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Garzu

Bla bla bla bla, never seen so much BS in one single post ever.... in htis forums that should tell you a little how bad it is....

You claim I lie, how pathetic. Typical to do for ppl who are on the defensive and know their case sucks.

This is also quoted from your words

And it does NOT make any difference AT ALL if a trader buffs my nano skills... I cannot cast any better nukes anyway... except of course Last Joke and Kels, but they are not better, they only got higher reqs, and are useless.

Your evaluation of the nano's usefulness aside (cause traders argue about the usefulness of our charm nanos all the time), a trader buffing your nano skills makes no difference "AT ALL"? That's a lie.

Its in PvP its totally uber, and traders is the biggest dmg dealers in both pvp and pvm, and they got the best debuffs and roots in the game, + 2nd best heals...

Traders excel in solo pvp and pvm because the of the nature of the profession PLUS easy access to an overpowered weapon: single skill requirement shotguns like the Vektor line. In a team situation the debuffs are the 1st part of a 2 part process, which when completed we become a excellent SUPPORT class. We don't have the hp nor aggro enhancing abilities to tank well. And if we're buffing the team skills like the profession is supposed to do our damage drops and will drop even further after the OE patch. In straight blanket debuffs, the trader does have the best debuff in the game. Guess what: we have the ONLY blanket debuffs in the game. MPs have the ability to debuff inits, debuff nanoskills, and debuff nanoskills while causing damage (their dd nanos with added nanoskill debuff effects), which makes them arguably the better debuffers. So that's more of an exaggeration. Traders having the best roots is a straight lie.

Originally posted by Garzu

Pay that price... I will no longer be able to get nano buffed from the trader... isnt htat a price to pay for me?

In your post you claimed you didnt know why stun was nerfed, you didnt care... now you say ALOT about it, and what the stun was able to do... So, what was stun really when it wasnt uber? An exploit? I want a real answer, not that it was "close to an exploit".

In the original post this is exactly true. I didn't know stun was broken, got fixed, and got nerfed. Given your general attitude, I didn't care either. But I also warned when I asked you why it got nerfed that if you didn't tell the truth behind why it got nerfed, I'd go and find out on my own. Funny thing how a lot of the things you claimed were NT targetted nerfs, like the cap to everyone's range and changes to stun after it was fixed, were because of problems that if it wasn't allowable by the game mechanics people would have been screaming "Exploit".

Originally posted by Garzu

I find it amusing... only the traders can NOT see the uberness of their prof, and they also fail to see the UBER boost in pvp of their profession if the OE goes thruogh without a nerf of their debuffs.

You claim I cant see past my nose, I claim you are blind.

Your entire arguement for removing the nano debuff portion of the ransack/deprive line centers around the effects it has on your profession as a solo player. I'm arguing for leaving it alone and 'nerfing' the trader's offensive power because of the negative effects it will have on team gameplay. There are greater chances for trader players interacting beneficially with team members than the chances are of negatively encountering trader mobs in missions or trader players in solo PvP. Take out the nano portions of the debuffs and it halves our ability to enhance our team and remain an effective member of the team. I'm comparing the encounter rate of trader profession anything while playing solo (which basically amounts to a chance based on either the number of trader players, in case of PvP, or whatever criteria the spawn tables use to generate trader mobs) versus the benefits gained by choosing to group with a trader with their current abilities. To me the benefits to teamplay outweigh the negatives of a chance encounter with a trader solo. And that's based on simple math:

A trader using his current abilities for the benefit of the team benefits 5 other players along with the trader.

A chance encounter with a trader player or mob affects 1 person negatively at a time, the target.