Thread: Overequipping and the IP reset: A follow-up

  1. #241

    Re: Amen..

    Originally posted by Drabin


    Amen.

    The problems with NPC traders and MPs in missions have always been the debuffs. I am completely in favor for full removal of this nano line for NPCs for two reasons.

    First, all npcs of these types chain cast them far too often in missions and they also seem to know when the debuff is going to wear off - instacasting a new debuff to overwrite the first one milliseconds before its going to disappear.

    Second, Traders and MPs cannot debuff these NPCs in missions. Debuffing the NPCs still allows the NPCs to fully cast their own debuffs.
    Look! Something we agree on!

    NPC casters should not cast roots, slows, or primary skill debuffs (init debuffs are alright I guess). The duration and impact of these nanos just makes it no fun at all. Spending 10 minutes at -400 run speed because that last Seasoned Beauracrat thought he'd be spiteful right before he died is not cool. Sitting there for three minutes because that NPC trader got off a debuff on me isn't motivating me to spend more time playing.

    Maybe those types of nanos could be reserved for 'boss' type monsters. Instead of those mobs just being super tough for their level it would be a bit more scary if Neleb popped out and immediately targetted the closest doctor with Unmake: Biomet and then hit the with Unmake: MatCrea. After that he could area root and run away.

    That'd be a little more frightening than it currently is. Plus it would leave these nanos in the game, but instead of being annoying they would enhance the experience.
    Fausto "Dealbreaker" Age

  2. #242

    Re: Re: hahahaha

    Originally posted by Crin


    Obviously you have none. You must be one of those types that just over equipped, got into a fight, pressed "Q" and went to the bathroom.

    How about figuring out which debuffs will work best against your oponent.

    How about figuring out if you would do better to cast some debuffs or attack before you get debuffed.

    How about trying to decide the best target to attack in PvP. Healer, Nano Debuffer, weapon Debuffer.

    Now it really would be a good idea to send a stealthy class (when Conceal works in PvP) in first to find out who you are fighting and pick targets before ganking someone.

    ...

    Just like I thought. The over equippers really are the lazy ones.
    That'd be great if anyone ever fought anything but one on one.

    That'd be great if debuffs had even a minor effect on NPCs.

    There are NO real 'battle tactics' in PvM, and that's what the vast majority of players do. Generally if you are solo you just shoot, fire off special attacks, heal if you get low, run for the zone if you are gonna die. I guess you can consider rooting a mob before you shoot it a 'tactic', but that's hardly Rommel and Napoleon quality battle planning.
    Fausto "Dealbreaker" Age

  3. #243

    Re: Amen..

    Originally posted by Drabin
    Traders and MP debuffs need to be 50 percent resistable in PvP and in PvP only the effects should only last from 15 to 30 seconds period.
    No, I think Funcom is on the right track. The best solution is to have a way in the game to remove a debuff. The problem with the debuffs as they are now is that there are no counters to them. There is very little you can do to defend against them (nano resists appears to not work) and once you have been debuffed there is nothing you can do to remove its effects.

    What Funcom is screwing up is that they plan on implementing a debuff removal item in a patch sometime AFTER implementing the effects of debuffs on players.

  4. #244
    Bionitrous, I think your analysis of the debuffing problem is flawed..

    I may be wrong, but I thought I read that only the biggest debuff will be factored in for the OE penalty..in other words, you dont get hit once for the main and another time for the secondary/tertiary....whichever skill has the largest OE penalty is the one that counts...but it still will be possible to debuff someone down low enough to make the weapon useless...but you dont get cumulative penalties from each of the skills debuffed.

    For example, and this is all just hypothetical here, Agent X has a rifle with AR, Burst and Aimed Shot skills. Mr. Uber Trader comes along and zaps Agent X with a debuff or two...after the debuffs, Agent X's AR is down 25% (the first OE cutoff), but his burst is whacked down by 50% (the second OE cutoff). The OE penalty assessed is just the 50%..not 75% for both..since the burst is the most affected skill. If another debuff comes along that takes the AR down to -60%, then the 75% penalty comes in as that is now the overriding skill.

    Yes, debuffing is going to wreak havoc on everyone...hopefully FC will wise up and decrease the duration of the debuffs so they're not so frikkin long...maybe make em for 30 secs instead of 10 mins..heh..but at least Gaute said they were going to look into that shortly..
    Commander Barron
    Prime Director: Omni-1 Operations
    2nd in Command
    Division 9 [R.S.G.E]
    barron@rsge.net
    Click Here to Visit the ALL NEW Division 9 Website

  5. #245

    Talking You want a reason?

    Last Posted by Painsmaiden
    And no one has been able to tell me WHY this is a Good Thing (tm). Everyone says "Oh, I am 100% behind this." Why? Unless you are a NT or MA then you should be hating this. I *AM* an MA and I hate it, because I play other classes too.
    First of all the entire package is an excellent idea. FC thought it out very well IMHO and I'll tell you why. Most if not all high level persons have been complaining for an IPR patch for sometime. Most everyone new and old have mistakes *skill* wise in their characters training. By implementing the IPR with the OE they kill two birds with one stone.

    Most people will use the IPR because they want to fix the problems associated with their characters. What some of you don't realize is just how badly some exploits affected the game.

    Problem 1. Tutoring. This was probably the last and worst bug in the game. You could group a person and use a tutoring device on him by clicking over and over - raising your skill almost 500 to 600 points greater than it could be normally. So, you had level 1 newbies with 6 slot belts and 200 ncu, ql 80 to 100 scopes outfitted. Now you might think well this patch doesn't fix that problem but it does. It fixes it at the mid level to high level aspect. This is the part of the game that suffers the most. Frankly, who cares about PvP at 25th or lower level. It's common knowledge that any decent buffing expert can win a duel at that level. The problem is at very high levels you have people that never trained in electrical engineering or weapon smithing that have 100 to 200 ql scopes outfitted with little or no skill involved. However, if you get in the IPR you have to remove all items and this problem gets fixed. FC thought about this a lot and my hat's off to them.

    Problem 2. Treatment. The old reference to this will probably never be fixed where low levels are concerned.. It truly exists at the very low level portion of the game - more or less in the 10th level and under population. You could use incremental treatment bugs to outfit very high implants and thus become an OE powerhouse. While some - not all persons have hidden characters that are equipped this way - the higher level ones will still want to use the IPR and they will have to remove them.

    Problem 3. Political Side Equipment. How many clans do you know or see that wear omni equipment that only omni can wear to circumvent the sided benefits? A lot. Now while you can surely get a form to swap to omni to re-outfit the equipment this takes time and there are known bugs that cause you to lose your tokens completely - even when they are stored on your character. The bug happens with the swap over and occurs when your storedtokens merit is reset to 0. This bug is hit or miss so beware if you try to do it. With the IPR they also have to remove them.

    In short, the IPR fixes most of the problems inherent in the game system and the OE implementation backs it up in an attempt to balance out classes. Its not a nerf folks. It's a fix. The system was broken well before they put this FIX in. Just because you are so accustomed to playing a broken system and want it kept that way is in no way a valid point in forcing FC to not go through with this patch.

    Shall we play a game of chess?

  6. #246
    Originally posted by Crin


    Ignorant: Someone who doesn't realize that a player might not play a MA or NT but can understand their problems. You don't have to be lazy to want the patch, just smart enough to figure out that there were imbalances in the game that needed to be fixed.

    I basically have a problem on 2 fronts. . .

    1st: 14.2 will not fix the imbalances in the game. . . only make them worse.

    2nd: This whole idea of "balance" kinda disturbs me. If we want true balance, the how about if everything was decided by a coin flip? PvP matches will be 100% fair then. . . you can meet someone on the battlefield & initiate combat. . . then you can receive a message in your chat window
    "Please wait while a ARK is summoned to oversee your battle"
    the Ark will arrive momentarily & flip his coin. . . OT is heads, clan is tails. The loser will be immediately sent to reclaim.

    You see how fair that is? It won't matter how powerful your weapon is or how high your AC is. Isn't this what Funcom's trying to do?

    Oh I'm sorry, you want to be able to use battle tactics. . . k then, how bout if we do Rock Paper Scissors instead?

    Now there's balance for ya. Fun? No. Balanced? Yes.

  7. #247

    Re: Re: Re: hahahaha

    Originally posted by Asmodan


    That'd be great if anyone ever fought anything but one on one.

    That'd be great if debuffs had even a minor effect on NPCs.

    There are NO real 'battle tactics' in PvM, and that's what the vast majority of players do. Generally if you are solo you just shoot, fire off special attacks, heal if you get low, run for the zone if you are gonna die. I guess you can consider rooting a mob before you shoot it a 'tactic', but that's hardly Rommel and Napoleon quality battle planning.
    Agreed. I posted a reply here before stating that it was a poor design decission by Funncom to "make monsters more predictable" by basically making them all alike. Monsters need to be affected by debuffs and fights need to be many on many not many on one as most PvM fights tend to be.

    As for One on one PvP. Yes you do have to still use tactics. As has been pointed out, certain weapons are more susceptible to debuffs in particular secondary skills. You would do well to know what those skills were and be able to recognize the weapon you are being attacked by. It would also be a good idea that if you are using one of those easy to debuf weapons to either invest points to increase those secondary skills or have a backup weapon handy that is not as easily debuffed.

    Like I said. The OE changes do not make the game easier. If you sucked before you will defiantly suck again. This is not the lazy person's patch.

  8. #248
    Originally posted by Ironphist

    2nd: This whole idea of "balance" kinda disturbs me. If we want true balance, the how about if everything was decided by a coin flip?
    A game of chess is balanced right. Then why can't you decide who would win that by a coin flip?

  9. #249
    I cant believe anyone thinks that FC actually has the skills to do these patches without causing 1000 more problems than the ones that already exsist. This will deffinatly put the Anarchy back into AO.

  10. #250
    by Gaute Godager
    Also, we are working on an item that will reduce the length of all hostile nano-programs in your NCU. This is still some time off, as we must differentiate between common hostile nanos, and special hostile nanos. (Such as the profession-swapping nanos of the Agents.) We don't want those to go away when you use this item. Expect these items in one of the following patches...
    Simple solution. Instead of having the item work generically against any debuff, have them target against a specific debuf or debuf line. There aren't that many that players are truly worried about.

    If Funcom was to intoduce such a device at the same time as the coding for the OE checks goes in many of the players complaints would go away.

    BTW, I would include items for the nano debuffs too. Don't want to leave the casters out in the cold.

  11. #251
    10.*Won't one de-buff completely kill pet users?
    A de-buff will affect the pet professions hard, yes, but it will also hit the direct-damage dealing nano-program and weapon users. So far, if a Trader de-buffs the Nano-Technician (NT), the NT should run for the exit or grid entrance. Now this is also true for some of the pet professions.
    A difference is still that in PvM (Player Vs Monster) combat, most pet classes have their pets "tank" for them, thus the pets will receive the de-buff attacks! Because of this, weapon users and "nukers" will still feel the de-buff more than the pet professions.
    Also, we are working on an item that will reduce the length of all hostile nano-programs in your NCU. This is still some time off, as we must differentiate between common hostile nanos, and special hostile nanos. (Such as the profession-swapping nanos of the Agents.) We don't want those to go away when you use this item. Expect these items in one of the following patches...

    i didnt really read much of the rest of this post..sorry:P


    How is this going to balance pvp at all? Traders will be godly...Not only will they be able to debuff the living hell out of anyone they face (which means everyone), but theyll also be able to overequip their gun because the ransacks and such will raise their skills too.....and how bout getting epsilon purge and similar nanos to work before you start working on something just like it for everyone else.

  12. #252
    3. Will the HPs (health points) of the monsters be reduced?

    We are going to go through the monsters and evaluate a reduction of hit-points for the most extreme monsters. (That is, a Level 180 Offal Larva has 10 times the amount of HPs that a normal monster has on that level.) Basically, we are going to make the variation smaller; thus the average is somewhat reduced. What I will not do is to reduce the normal monster hit-points at this time. This is not the same as saying that we'll NEVER do it - just that I would like to watch the impact of the current changes first. I am afraid of doing too many changes at the same time, and what the synergy of them might be.

    Let me respond to this single part of you letter! You guy s have been buffing up monsters to be better against over equipped players for a while now. As a result more players are over equipping. Now you downgrade all the players and you wont downgrade monsters at the same time ?

    WTF man... They are a synergy.... they both need to happen at the same time. By leaving us all over equipped we beat on your poor NPC's. Not all of us are that well off finacially or equipment wise. No you OE patch the PC's (not player charicters but PAYING CUSTOMERS) and make the game totally different than what I have played since day 1. Take a lesson from Verant, take your lumps and dont try and make patches retroactive, they have made mistakes and if you took advantage of thier error they did not punish everyone. They instead patched the mistake so it would not happen in the future, not the past.

    You said lets look towards the future. So lets! lets not punish those of us who love this game for its potential to be better than the next guy of prettier than the next guy or stronger. Natual selection is a way of life. The stronger never do beat the smarter.

    I personally will keep my account active and see how this goes. I have a hard enough time killing even with my soldier (let alone 3 in the entry room) after the OE patch my ass will be handed to me mush more often im sure. This game was about playing I thought now its about being a mindless drone who has to be like everybody else. So if it does turn into that (which 14.2 looks as if it will) I will leave this game which I now love.

    Im not just a player... Im a paying customer. Thanks Guate for your "Vision" of this game. To bad it is so far away from when it started... when most of the dedicated players (day 1 and before) stuck though your problems. Thanks for the good times that I had back when your game was still my game.

    I know... lets get our "Vision" checked!

    Anyway be afraid of PC's (Paying Customers) leaving and not of doing too many changes at the same time, and what the synergy of them might be.

    The NPC and OE patch should be the same patch.
    !!!Demagogue!!!
    !Clan Atrox Crat!

  13. #253
    Still very confused

    Im not about to screw up (pardon my french) my high level char that i've spent months on building after this ip whipe if i don't know how to use it 100%. NOT 99%... im saying 100%. I don't want to practice this on myself and end up making a huge mess of my character.

    I am still very confused as to how it works. Gaute did a good job explaining. but maybe u should write it down in steps. or in a real example. Such as / make yourself a level 140 ENForcer or something, and pretend like you want to whipe out your 2hb. im still very very confused here

    Also, i thought we start with a bunch of IPR when 14.2 goes live depending on your level. That will allow us to whipe out all skills... correct?

    I think we need to have a much better explanation of something so serious than just 2 paragraphs.

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    May i ask a question?


    These points are yours to distribute as you please, and will last until you have spent them. We will most likely, in time (not saying WHEN!), add static missions for instance, where you can receive these points as rewards - assuming that people are going to find them popular...


    So does that mean that every time we want to use these points, we will have to take off all our armor/implants/ncus/rings/bracers/
    just to use these few points??

    ~ ack talk about a nightmare if thats true.

    -breaku

  14. #254
    Originally posted by Ironphist


    Sure. . . now let's define "lazy" or "ignorant" : Anyone who has the ability to overequip to make their character the strongest that it can be, but don't. They are the ones that are saying things like:

    "this patch is super-swell Gaute. . . thank you oh so much. Funcom really listens to its players"


    This of course doesn't apply to MA's or NT's. . . I can see why an OE patch will be a good thing for them, since they are unable to overequip their main forms of damage.
    I play a Trader. Nuff said...

    No, actually it's not. I play a trader that constantly runs divest/plunders in missions, despite not needing to (since it's pretty much permanently there once I put it there), has combat/tradeskill implants, and generally run every nanoprogram I can squeeze into a combat (skill debuffs, ac debuffs, health plunders, nano drains, and occasionally calms to take a break). So I can self-buff and maintain my weapon's effectiveness in solo PvM. In team PvM, I have a backup weapon that will meet my debuffed skills for when I'm running wrangles on my team. And a LOT of traders have been maintaining there buff/debuff nanos on a constant basis, simply for more consistantly high damage.

  15. #255

    IPR step by step

    1. Remove all your equipment - clothes, implants, tools, etc.
    2. Click the IPR button (a Red R appears in place of your cursor)
    3. Select a skill by clicking on it with the Red R and you get a message ("Are you sure you want to reset this skill?")
    4. If you give a confirmation and say yes (1) IPR point is deducted from your IPR pool and your skill drops down to a base of 5. IP points are transferred to your IP pool.
    5. Each time you want to reset a skill it costs you 1 IPR point. When your IPR reaches 0, you can no longer reset any skill period.

    The first part of the process gives you 90 IPR until the next patch so you can practice and test different scenarios. After the next following patch - 14.3, you are given IPR points based off of your titling level.

    I hope this helps.

    Basically an IPR point = (The number of skills you can reset)
    90 IPR = You are able to reset 90 skills.

  16. #256
    Sorry missed one...

    We all know traders are going to be uber after this patch... If u don't make nano more resistant... nobody is going to match a MP nor a trader because of their powerful debuffs... well maybe a soldier if he pops up his mk before battle.

    plz look into nano resistance, and make it more useful. as of now its almost impossible to resist.

    and i don't want to sound like im whining, but please!! fix ENF's RAGE we rely on this nano

    -breaku

    /ps. thanks drabin for your post. It helped me understand IPR much better

  17. #257
    Yes, I already said I'd cancelled, no, that does not mean I'm moving on yet. I am still hoping that this patch can become something I will enjoy.

    So... to echo the very fine points already raised on this thread, please

    1. TEST THIS PATCH MORE THAN A "COUPLE OF WEEKS"
    I would think, for something as large at this, at LEAST a month of testing would be needed. there will be a thousand little problems with this, that could easily add up into an exploit-filled disaster for all.

    2. PROPOSE PROFESSION BALANCES BEFORE IMPLEMENTING THE PATCH
    what's this you say? the professions will need balancing after the patch? look at this thread. the very thought of 14.2 is making people scream right and left for traders to be entirely re-designed... and for engineers to have some sort of nano buff to call their own. That is only the beginning of course... EVERY profession will need rebalancing in light of this patch/ YES that means finding a solution that is acceptable to pet users... /pet behind is clearly not going to work for many of them.

    3. PROVIDE A SOLUTION TO DEBUFFS. 'nuff said. what's in Gaute's article is not going to work.

    4. IP RECLAIM
    please test it. test it and make sure nothing can go wrong... and GIVE BACK the ip you stole from adventurers. my own adventurer, at level 30, probably lost 10k ip at least from that little "gift" to adventurers. (yes, she's been retired a long time)

    5. REDUCE MOB HP AND NANOPOOL
    do this now, I say. if not now, then at least simultaneous with the OE patch. honestly, at lvl 100, as an opifex, i don't even have 2000 hp (with body dev maxed). Last night in a 50% mission I met *several* opi npcs with at least 10k hp ... chain-casting roots and runspeed debuffs and DoTs and all sorts of nasty things.

    6. GET RID OF THE FORMULAE
    okay, this is selfish. As I've said before, I don't want to do math... but its also true. make damage based purely on attack rating, or on a combination of attack rating and weapon level (through a secret formula you don't even tell us about)... much as it is now, actually. Take a gun that uses RE, buff into it with 0 actaul RE skill, and you'll do min damage... so take the operating system and make it more extreme

    7. FIX THE KNOWN BUGS AND IMPLEMENT TRADESKILLS AND CONTENT
    to be honest, if you guys do that FIRST people will be less likely to throw a fit even if you put 14.2 live on the servers as it is outlined in gautes' article

    finally, as a personal note, please make it so you can change account status without having to re-enter credit card numbers. I might not have cancelled (my intention was only to go to a monthly subscription to see how this is) if not for that added hassle of digging my wallet out of my purse.

    I trust that you want this patch to succeed, and you want your game to succeed... I want just the same thing.

    Listen to those that play this game.

    Zyxlquith, lvl 100 Trader

    -- Acting President, Omni Shadow Ops

  18. #258
    Originally posted by Crin


    A game of chess is balanced right. Then why can't you decide who would win that by a coin flip?
    If Funcom was the USCF they'd prolly make all the pieces on the board pawns =P

  19. #259

    IPR step by step (cont)

    When you reset a skill, it might not go all the way to zero. Just don't worry about it.

    A good part of the IPR explanation was devoted to trying to explain why it doesn't go to zero, but in the end forget about it. If you have a skill that you have put points in but don't use, reset it to use the IP points elsewhere.

    They give you 90 points to start out with because I think they know a lot of people will mess up their first couple of times. 90 is a lot of tries to get it right.

  20. #260

    Read my analysis again

    I said you will fall into the 50% penalty. That's only a SINGLE over-equip punishment. It's because the Shotgun skill requirement which is only 2/3 as big as the Rifle brings you below the 60% of requirement penalty.

    It gets worse and worse as your secondary skill requirements become less. If a secondary skill like Heavy Weapons or Grenade only require 50% of the main skill, it is even easier to drop them to half damage even if the main skill is kept within the 20%.

    Players who now exceed the main requirement but just make the secondary and tertiary skill requirements are going to be screwed against NPC and PC Traders.

    The counter to this is to sink a ton of IP's into secondary skills and become less effective in other 'frivolous' skills like First Aid or B&E or to switch to a single skill using weapon like pure Shotgun (oh, great).

    Many if not all secondary skills on weapons are blue to dark blue for most popular classes. The Heavy Weapons is a prime example. Ranged Energy is another popular secondary skill for Triple Jolts and many Pistols. These weapons are now becoming more useless than they are now as they become even bigger IP sinks to someone who might want to experiment. Single skill weapons would be your best choice.

    My analysis is NOT flawed. The approach to over-equipping is flawed. Both from a technical gameplay viewpoint and from a basic humanistic gameplay viewpoint where hard caps and artificial limits on character advancement. Both are very bad for the game.

    The right way to make Skills more important than Items is out there. This is not it.

    I despised how Items made the character in Diablo II and I despise it in AO. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about this. The proposal is the WRONG way.

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