And yes Scumbug formulas are easier to understand and don't force the casual player to calculate what weapon he can wield without loosing damage.
WHY IS THERE NO ARGUING AGAINST SCUMBUG SCALE ??
All I have see is flame of players without any knowledge of the game mechanics and blind faith in FC.
I'm not a pet class, trader, but I think it is a bit harsh for them to lose total control at dropping below 80% of the reqs. I'd like to see damage output from pets/bots decreased after dropping below 80%, as if the pet/bot won't fight as hard for someone who isn't "good" enough to boss them around. and then if they drop below 60% the pet/bot loses all respect and goes in /behind. Just don't think its right to penalized the pet classes so much more than the rest of us.
Xeraseus
Xeraseus
Why do I keep playing? *edit* disreguard, ditched this game *edit*
Why Can't Chown Save?
Biding my time until the time is right........
You know, just like with weapons, bots comes in certain levels, right? These levels are losely connected to the QL of the formula/crystal that creates them.
So, why not downgrade the bot, so it gets the statistics of a 'lower' bot? Just like with weapons, there has to be some sort of pattern in how the bots behave. And even if there isn't, the untrimmed stats of say a feeble warbot would always be the same.
If you fall below the requirements, that feeble warbot would perform less and less. It would always look the same, but it might only perform as well as an advanced guardbot, if the master lacks the skills to control it.
This would mean that:
Bots would not be all or nothing, like they would be now.
They scale in a similar way to weapons.
You can still get the visual grandness of the slayerdroid.
I haven't figured out any actual formulas or patters, since Funcom hasn't released the stats for the bots.
*poof*
Finally free from this nightmare!
Who cares, the ones that are quitting are the uber twink expoiters that sit in the arena at level 6 with 6slot belt ql120 armor and ql120 gun and kill new players that haven't a clue how to play yet. You folks are the ones that are dampening the hopes for the newbies, chasing away potentially great players and in the long run your doing more harm then good for the game by being here so to you all i bid you a fond farewell...its about time you all got whats due. Perhaps if you actually PLAYED the game for the past 6 months rather than sit at lvel 6 so you would'nt lose your invulnerability in PvP you would be all for this patch as well because it would put you on an even playing feild with most everyone in the game and allow classes to be balanced more aprporaitely but of course this isnt the case, you cant be happy unless yu can PvP without risk or challenge and simply walk away form every fight you ever enter having killed the other player in 3 shots....good riddance guys you finally get what you deserve rofl.
And remember, dont let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.
see. fanatisism. blind accusations. closed minds.Originally posted by Turbulence
Who cares, the ones that are quitting are the uber twink expoiters that sit in the arena at level 6 with 6slot belt ql120 armor and ql120 gun and kill new players that haven't a clue how to play yet.
allow me to toot my own horn for a minute.
-one of my mains is a trader who can cast every wrangle up to +132.
he was, at one point, one of the highest level traders in game.
this is because I've been playing him since before anyone knew
what a 'wrangle' was. I was just hoping for good tradeskills.
he has never once asked any price for these buffs.
if you tip me, cool, if not i go on with my game.
-I almost never PvP except in defence. I dont grief.
I rallied for grace periods to stop zone-camping.
I dont need to be uber. I dont need to 0wn anyone.
-every week I spend 3-4 hours in the newbie yard
helping new players. I buy 20+ QL6 complete armor sets
and fill a couple bags with lowQL weapons and play
santa for the kids who are dying to grass snakes or
having trouble surviving their first mission.
I spend a lot of time answering the same basic newbie questions
over and over again, offering advice when asked (so maybe
they wont screw up their first toon as bad as i did mine),
and just generally trying to make thier entrance into the game
as frustration-free as possible. I am often asked if i am a GM.
I dont fit your description Turbulence.
that said, I will be canceling my accounts if this thing happens
without some adjustments or a scale that makes sense.
It's just really bad problem-solving.. bad math.. bad attitude
on the part of the people in charge of this game.
It does make me frustrated enough to leave for this reason alone,
but i also worry for the future if these are the best methods of
solving a fairly simple problem they can come up with.
They even ignore better solutions when players do all the work for them.
And I still have a hope they will listen to players like you Scumbug.
I also am against 14.2 OE rules, and I don't fit at all in Turbulence description. This guy is very pretentious in his accusation.
I have also finish to build a very good formula for OE. Clear, simple (for those who have basis in math) and works great. One single formula and easily modulable to adjust how hard have to be the scale.
I am currently writing a thread I will post probably this night. I have spend 4 days on this thread and hope FC will pay more attention than a simple Cz report to this and other good one like "Scumbug is a genius" ; ).
The basic formula is :
OE = 1 - ( playerSkill / neededSkill )
OEDamage = weaponDamage * ( 1 - OE ) * ( 1 + e * OE )
The blue part scale the weapon damage to the damage a weapon of your current skills would deal. I will consider than that you deal 100% damage.
The orange part scale your damage to the damage you will deal, considering your OE level. e is the OE factor. If you set e to 1 then a weapon 40% OE (166% skill requiered) will deal 140% damage, a 60% OE weapon (250% skill requiered) will deal 160% damage. To increase OE malus, you just have to decrease e.
This can be vague for some players, but the result of the formula would be quite simple and that's the most important. Let's make some exemple. I will set e to 0.8, because I think it is the best scale to deal with OEing, but it is very easy to change the scale of the formula as you wish.
So you can see here some exemple to make your mind about my formula. You can see the malus your damage suffer compare to your OE %, and then the damage you deal today compare to the damage you would deal with my OE formula applied. 100% damage is the damage you would deal with a gun that requiered exactly your current skills.
So here it is. You can see there is no failure, you can also adapt the formula as you like by changing e value. You can increase the OE malus or decrease it. This work for any OE %.Code:e = 0.8 0% OE -> -00.0% 100.0% -> 100.0% 5% OE -> -01.2% 105.3% -> 103.2% 10% OE -> -02.8% 111.1% -> 108.0% 15% OE -> -03.8% 117.6% -> 113.1% 20% OE -> -07.2% 125.0% -> 116.0% 25% OE -> -10.0% 133.3% -> 120.0% 30% OE -> -13.2% 142.9% -> 124.0% 35% OE -> -16.8% 153.8% -> 128.0% 40% OE -> -20.8% 166.7% -> 132.0% 45% OE -> -25.2% 181.8% -> 136.0% 50% OE -> -30.0% 200.0% -> 140.0% 55% OE -> -35.2% 222.2% -> 144.0% 60% OE -> -40.8% 250.0% -> 148.0% 65% OE -> -46.8% 285.7% -> 152.0% 70% OE -> -53.2% 333.3% -> 156.0% 75% OE -> -60.0% 400.0% -> 160.0% 80% OE -> -67.2% 500.0% -> 164.0% 85% OE -> -74.8% 666.7% -> 168.0% 90% OE -> -82.8% 1000.0% -> 172.0% 95% OE -> -91.2% 2000.0% -> 176.0% 99% OE -> -98.2% 10000.0% -> 180.0%
So what do you think about it.
FC what do you think about this one ?
I dont get it?Originally posted by Thruthvang
Stop the spam Jodocast.
FC is a business, they want customers. Wow that's so "sell-out" of them!
And your spammed logic is flawed.
Keeping your level down does not a gamer keep.
Keeping your interest does.
A gamer that has found a game he ENJOYS will, upon reaching the elite status of lvl 200...follow me closely so you don't get confused...
RESTART ANOTHER character! I am guessing that you have not played many MMORPG's, or that you never fully appreciated the quality ones by the tone of your posts.
You seem dissatisifed with AO...so leave and good riddance.
BTW I am a teeny bit distressed that my previous longwinded post in a super huge and unreadable thread is being buried by a spammer that has nothing new or constructive to say--causing my post to probably remain unread by the time people of cognitive merit scan through this board.
Ah well, if you can't beat them... bury them in spam or some other pseudo-meat product.
Oh BTW... people leave quietly every day because of OE, and FC knows it, so you can take that argument into account too, if you want to be fair.
=)
Ciao
Hi. I'm new to AO (third day in the trial) and it's quite fun so far. I'm not really exactly sure what OEing is, but I can gather some from context in this thread. I must say that I don't want to have to look at some reference chart or whip out a calculator when purchasing equipment just to check if it will be fully effective or not. I suppose I'm a bit niave to problems experienced in AO involving OEing so I'm still confused as to why it's allowed at all. Why not just have a cap, so you can't equip an item until you are the appropriate level? Again, I don't fully understand the problem, so I likewise don't fully understand the proposed solution.
Everyone is whining about that OE patch is gonna make ur weapon/Armour unusable--- fuk that.
What im mostly conserned about is how many months of BUGGED OE patch we wil have to live through!!?!
As we all know almost every "fix" has had some new/ old bugs, and a few days later an "emergency pathc". OE patch seems like a big change in the game. Imagine this:
!?FC have to rewrite all armour and weapon code?!(dang, :\)
Outch! forget that ur bio-mech cloack is screwed, now we gonna see a few months of ppl naked with no stuff at all. Cause i doubt that OE and IP reset is bug free!
PLIS FunCom, REALLY test this patch on ur "test server" before putting it on live. Ive seen to many "fixes" go from test to live riddled with old/ new bugs.
Engineer/ Trader - NOT TOUCHING THE IP RESET TILL ANOTHER HAS DONE IT(without loosing all his XP) BEFORE ME.
1. Low Light Targeting scopes.
If im 1xOE on my 8% scope, how many % crit increase is that?
And will the Rngd. Init. penalty also be lowered if im OE?
(same goes for yhamatuchi Movement Predictor)
2. Skill bonuses on guns(like evades on Ithacas)
Ithaca Escapist King gives 25 to some evades, will those
be lower with OE?
3. Skill bonus on armour(like treat/aid on bio)
OE an bio- mech armour, will the treat/aid bonus be lower?
4. OE on a Yalmaha?
Put in my Vehicle Air plants. get into Yal. take the plants out.
What happens?(is it even possible?)
5. And....did FC just make 30 Trader nanos(the wrangle line)
almost worthless? The last for like 3mins for gods sake, it
would be fun to hear FC say what the wrangler line was meant
for in the first place(if not OE)!
Shegrath/ Shegryth
Engineer/ Trader - Stil gonna kick ur as if im 5xOE
I understand your formula just fine. What I'm saying is you need to explain the one currently in the game to prove you can recommend a better formula.Originally posted by Scumbug
I just explained that.
What part of multiply dont you understand?
this is the formula.
(1 + (ATK / 400)) * (Damage + Crit if any)
= damage total +added damage modifiers [like rings]
-minus armor = damage dealt.
ATK is your current skill (goes up if buffs are active).
so a weapon that advertises max damage of 300
can do 900 in a couple of ways.
lets make up some stats for your example weapon.
33-300(150)
i'll show you both.
first, say the player has a ATK of 800.
he gets a good diceroll and scores for max damage
but doesnt score a critical hit bonus.
(1 + (800 / 400=2) =3) * (300) = 900
or perhaps it was a lower level player scoring a crit.
this player has an ATK of 400.
he hits for max damage + scores a critical hit.
(1 + (400 / 400=1) =2) * (300 + 150 = 450) = 900
understand now?
The reason I say this is because there is damage unaccounted for in the current formulas used ingame. This unaccounted damage comes from computations we're not aware of. They may use weapon properties, item properties, or even character properties as modifiers. And it's not entirely known exactly when those modifiers are applied now, nor after the OE patch.
Last edited by Kuroshio; Mar 18th, 2002 at 16:08:24.
I just wonder how much response they will get when they actually fix the hidden speed buff of the yalmahas (14.4 Yalmaha nerf: Voice your opinion here!)
hidden speed buff?
Kuroshio
We are talking about basic damage dealt by your weapon. So stop play the dumb guy please ; ).
It's just annoying.
I'm not playing 'dumb guy' here. I'm saying that if he can't account for the damage a weapon deals under the current ruleset, he can't claim his formula would work better.Originally posted by Zuh
Kuroshio
We are talking about basic damage dealt by your weapon. So stop play the dumb guy please ; ).
It's just annoying.
There is a large amount of damage unaccounted for when you total up the damage given by the stats of the weapon. It's unaccounted for because FC hasn't said what makes it up. Otherwise we'd be able to take a weapon that, according to it's own description, has a total damage around 300 and come up with it's ability to do up 900 points of damage. And if he doesn't try to account for that damage in his formula (and just dumps it) then we're prolly talking about really playing around with altering both the player and item attribute mechanics. And that's likely to be even more unbalancing than tackling the issue from the damage end.
Through all the different editions of AD&D, did they ever suddenly completely rework the way THAC0 was calculated?
When FC made this game they invisioned a character of level 30 using up to a certain ql of weapons and armor, what are they???!!! Let us in on it. You guys put Traders in the game to perform wrangles, now your'e upset about it. Geeeze, I don't see how you are going to fix this unless you flat out make some items unusable for characters that are too low of a level to use them.
First make it so you cannot cast any nano on a character that is grey to you. This means no more healing a level 5 twinker in PvP with your level 80 doc. Of course I can see people wondering how to get a chain of characters buffing each other from red to green, on down the line until they get down to that level 10 guy with a very high level buff. That's why the game code needs to look at the level of the character and the ql of the weapon, NCU belt, armor or nano being cast on him, and perform a check to see if the character is too low of a level for it.
This way you cannot equip any weapon, armor or summon any pet if it is too high in ql. All nano programs, armor and weapons, and other items (like NCUs and belts) have a ql number. Make up some way for the game to check this, and have not upload to theirNCUs and or disallow it to be equipped.
There is probably some kind of formula for this, I am not uber enough in the field of mathmatics for this.
But I would think something like this might be exceptable:
char lvl ____ highest ql item or nano
1-5______________+5
6-10_____________+10
11-25____________+15
26-35____________+25
36-50____________+35
51-75____________+45
76-99____________+55
100-149__________+65
150-200__________no restrictions
What do you think FunCom?? You will either have to change the ql of pet nanos or adjust them somewhat for this idea to work out. I'm not a code writer, just some guy that likes this game and willing to take a hit on something to make it fun to play again.
Last edited by Kwangju; Mar 18th, 2002 at 23:00:59.
Sorry Delfidae, but ql on item is not significant enough to make an OE scale.
Take MPS and MCS for exemple. The MCS is much more powerfull for the same ql.
the one i just explained *IS* the one currently ingame.Originally posted by Kuroshio
I understand your formula just fine. What I'm saying is you need to explain the one currently in the game to prove you can recommend a better formula.
(1 + (ATK / 400)) * (Damage + Crit if any)
= damage total +added damage modifiers [like rings]
-minus armor = damage dealt.
this is what is in game now. period. no debate. no question.
devs have answerd this before. (when the ones who made
the game were still here) and i believe it's even been
published in one of the strategy guides.
this is what both my formula and funcoms formula changes.
(1 + (ATK / 400)) * (Damage + Crit if any - REDUCTION% HERE)
= damage total +added damage modifiers [like rings]
-minus armor = damage dealt.
It is only a question of which scale makes more sense.
Last edited by Ejeckted; Mar 18th, 2002 at 23:41:54.
Originally posted by Kuroshio
I'm not playing 'dumb guy' here. I'm saying that if he can't account for the damage a weapon deals under the current ruleset, he can't claim his formula would work better.
There is a large amount of damage unaccounted for when you total up the damage given by the stats of the weapon. It's unaccounted for because FC hasn't said what makes it up. Otherwise we'd be able to take a weapon that, according to it's own description, has a total damage around 300 and come up with it's ability to do up 900 points of damage. And if he doesn't try to account for that damage in his formula (and just dumps it) then we're prolly talking about really playing around with altering both the player and item attribute mechanics. And that's likely to be even more unbalancing than tackling the issue from the damage end.
Through all the different editions of AD&D, did they ever suddenly completely rework the way THAC0 was calculated?
Scumbug did a scale using currently known rules. If there is a missing factor in the formula, FC can easily add it. What is important is the idea behind.
I'ld like to note also that FC is suddently completly reworking the way damage is calculated.
But Scumbug use a scale, and I prefer a formula. So I did my own formula. I am talking about changing the damage you see on weapon description before any other factors are applied. Mine is very coherent and more than that can be changed very easily by changing the value of one factor (e) to penalize more or less OE.
I repeat I am only talking about changing base damage of your weapon, the damage that is used by FC in their formula to calculate final damage.
I repeat my formula can be easily adapt to penalize more or less OE.
Check out my post page around 83.
Depends. The way I'd do it is wait for damage to be completely finalized then do a skill check for OE and hack off the appropriate percentages. Not very elegant, but quite simple too. Screw the knot! Where's my sword?Originally posted by Zuh
Scumbug did a scale using currently known rules. If there is a missing factor in the formula, FC can easily add it. What is important is the idea behind.
I'ld like to note also that FC is suddently completly reworking the way damage is calculated.
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