Over-equipping - here we go....

[_________Dogberry545]

Scumbug!

YOUR game?? Since when? You write the source code? You playtest it before it was released?
You come up with the idea, market it, provide the capital to get it onto the shelves??

It is people like you with your arrogant mindset (and remember that equation how many pages back now?? OE + something = arrogance).

The GAME (remember thing played for fun) has been boiled down to nothing more than a race to see who can have the best equipment at the earliest levels.

That might be fun for you and for a group of people like you.

It is not fun for me, and people like me.

Oh, and I have news for you. It isn't YOUR game. It is OUR game.
I have as much right to have FUN as you.

You don't like it? Too bad. We're quite happy here, thank you very much.

[Maximilian]

Most of what has to been said has been said already, so rather short:

1) OE caps: principally yes.
2) As usual, there will be winners and loosers.
2.1) Winners: All professions that 'easily' can 'selfbuff' to the maximum (MP, Traders, combat professions to some extend)
2.2) Loosers: Professions that rely on others to buff and/or do not have profession specific buffs (Casters, Adv)
2.3) The consequence from this: The imbalance between the professions will become larger, not smaller
3) IPR is nice but not fully implemented - Adv again. I want my Multi Ranged IP back!!!
4) Personal note: There might not be many Adv left to give some love to after all this 'superb' patches. How about a Anti-Trader/MP pistol (TRAMP-Killer) that kills every trader or MP with 3 shots?

I wonder if they will retreat this time again, but as it looks, FC decided to ignore the opinion of their customers to a major extend right now - how many where in favor for the /list command? Check the 14.0 patch notes.

There are other important things to be done:
- Fix the loot in chests!!!
- Add team missions
- Nerf traders and MPs


Some numbers (from about 1 hour ago, 1085 posts):

Originally posted by Nzime
Although there are an amazing numbers of replies, a lot of them are from the same person over and over again. Out of curiosity, how many unique IDs have posted a reply, and then, what percentage of your customer base do they represent?

About 400 different people have posted so far.
Top ten:

Gokudan		63
jakespeed	36
Phelisha	34
Darksnake	32
hexxia		23
Cz		21
Kiryat		21
Dareus		20
Maitrize	19
Scumbug		19

The majority of people (> 85%) has posted three times and less.

So long (not that much longer)

Max(imilian)

[LeetRoolzor]

Hi. I'm an adventurer. I have 3 of them, 2 being on hold for screwing up with ip. When the ip reset shows up Ill be able to 'resurrect' them. Time lost taken back; that's great news.

Overequipping: As one of the adventurer pistol hopers, I think the new system will be great; it will increase differences between people using dark blue skills (shotgun docs for instance will be less terrific.), though it won't be enough. FC, this is just a word dropped by an adv: regardless of the definition of pistols, the adv's weaponry (adv only weapons for instance) should be able to outdamage a doc... For the moment adv's seem to do less damage than a doc AND (but that part is normal) heals less well. So we are outgunned by a doc. Think on the weaponry you will implement later on. How about some weapons being FORBIDEN of use? Or make new specific class weapons superior than those beam/shotgun weilders we see everywhere. Yes, that I am sure of, it will ask for new weapons for enforcers and soldiers. I am curious to see what the recently BBI Faithful Pistols can do vs the other weapons when they'll be of the same level... With the OE patch, I am keeping one last piece of faith in adv pvp. We shall see.

[hexxia]

Ok lets look at RPG aspects for a sec (its an RPG after all)

I get uber strength and put some armour on. My uber strength fades, would I still be able to use it as well? heck no, it's heavy. Its the reason I couldnt put it on in the first place. I guess I should be thankful that it's less effective but I can still drag my carcass around.

I'm pretty good with a rifle and find a great one, but its so damn hi-tech I cant use it. I have my skill temporarialy raised so I can use it... wow... then the buffs wear off, of course I shouldnt be able to use it as well any more, I no longer have the SKILL. (shooting isnt about having a weapon on, you have to use it effectively every time you squeeze the trigger) thankfully I still have the knowledge somewhere of how to even hold this uber weapon, it hasnt dropped out of my hands.

I make a bot that is way beyond my normal ability while I am under the influence of hedonistic abilities. cool, its so complicated, no wonder I wouldnt make or use one before. the commands I have to use just to keep it ticking over would be beyond my ability normally, let alone control it in combat. my buffs run out, I lose my knowledge of how this piece of machinery needs to be treated, it looks after itself by going into drone mode until I can figure it out again (get rebuffed)

The "R" in "RPG" is for "Role" not "Roll" I can see why power players are upset when their level 50 wont be visiting level 150 friends for buffs. well, play with people your own level. the buffs your own level will get you that 20%.

Roll on team missions and 14.2 changes, they cant come soon enough :-)

[_______________drago]

I think it is because of the PvP stuff. Dun do PvP and don't intend to thus cannot comment much? But I agree with them, theoritically, how is it possible for a lvl 80 character to be defeated by a lvl 10 character which is possible with OE? (if he is defeated by a lvl 70, I'll think that it is ok)

[nemis]

Well, it's obvious from information coming from Funcom that massive OE was never intended. It's not part of the 'rules', just a loophole immature people are using to become 'Uber'.

I've only recently come to AO, and have to say that all the 'wrangling' and overequipping really puts me off.

Seems a lot like cheating to me.

Who will stay long-term in a game where cheating like this is allowed?

To me, the intent of 1.42 seems good. I personally would have made it allow 0% overequipping. Seems like Funcom is being lenient with allowing 20%.

Regards

[_____________Lilith2]

Originally posted by Scumbug


see. this is the core of the debate.

what you consider 'skills', i consider mindless button-mashing.
what i consider 'skills', you consider exploiting.

so who wins this subjective arguement?

I win.
Why? because these have always been the rules.
this has always been in the game. this *is* AO.

if you prefer a different style of play, go to a different game.
my style of play was here first.
you are trying to change the rules of my game, not vice versa.

With that logic, the dupe exploits, the treatment machines exploits, the nodrop trade exploits etc were the rules, people only used what they had, and it was perfectly fine for the overall game balance? Why did they fix the parts that were not broken? oh maybe because they were broken...

You sound like someone who argued about the TMS being perfectly balanced... you remember those guys who killed juggernauts? Put TMS, get shot, reflect a %age of damage, come back again... get the xp for the kill, that the mob killed itself mostly did not have an influence, they were only using the rules of the game. There was absolutely no need to change that... right?

[___________Xaeberfix]

The way I look at it is this, no matter what is done in the patch, adjustments will have to be made at a later date to compensate for whatever screw-ups were made in implementing the patch in the first place. So at worst you'll have to deal with any major unbalances until the next patch when they are corrected.
Truly there is only one way to test somthing like this and that is by implementing it in the game and seeing what happens. We can stay here and theorize about what it may be like for this one or that one but until we actually get in-game and see it in action, who knows how much this will really effect gameplay.

For myself, it will have no effect at all on my character. I'm a lvl 35 agent and I carry a QL 49 Stigma and I am very well under equipped. I have never gotten a wrangle (too expensive) nor do I want one. I can barely do 50% missions, somtimes 60% is possible, but anything over that and I'm taking an all expense one way trip to the reclaim booth.
In closing I'd just like to say to all those who rely heavily on OE. HAH! Thats what you get for exploiting! =)

[___________Angel2000]

Originally posted by hexxia

I make a bot that is way beyond my normal ability while I am under the influence of hedonistic abilities. cool, its so complicated, no wonder I wouldnt make or use one before. the commands I have to use just to keep it ticking over would be beyond my ability normally, let alone control it in combat. my buffs run out, I lose my knowledge of how this piece of machinery needs to be treated, it looks after itself by going into drone mode until I can figure it out again (get rebuffed)

Err the pet command are the same for each lvl pet,
/pet attack
/pet follow
/pet behind

In a roleplaying manner i see my char saying: [petname] Attack!

Its a robot, a lifeless thing that follows commands, so the bit you just posted is balony
Have fun eating your balony

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Dogberry545
Scumbug!

YOUR game?? Since when? You write the source code? You playtest it before it was released?
You come up with the idea, market it, provide the capital to get it onto the shelves??

It is people like you with your arrogant mindset (and remember that equation how many pages back now?? OE + something = arrogance).

The GAME (remember thing played for fun) has been boiled down to nothing more than a race to see who can have the best equipment at the earliest levels.

That might be fun for you and for a group of people like you.

It is not fun for me, and people like me.

Oh, and I have news for you. It isn't YOUR game. It is OUR game.
I have as much right to have FUN as you.

You don't like it? Too bad. We're quite happy here, thank you very much.

i dont believe anyone took that literally, even you.
(but apparently i've overestimated many of my fellow gamers)

the point being,
the rules that allow my style of play have always been the
foundation of AO, and now someone wants to change this game,
instead of just moving on to a different game, just because it's
not thier cup of tea.

to that i say "screw you, you selfish bastards" for thinking
you get to storm in here and ruin what i've been enjoying
for so long.

my style of play ("my game") was here first.

[TemplarRed]

Originally posted by Dogberry545
What you suggest is nothing more than those with resources, like money, can perform better than those without - regardless of potential.

In no way, shape, or form have I made any such claim.

My Trader was my first character.

She was not twinked; she was a have-not.

I did solo mission afer solo mission for hours, to get money. I even 'ran' a few high-level missions (sometimes dying a dozen times) to get big money & big gear. I sat & watched the scrolling of the shopping channel for hours, waiting for someone who had a shotgun over ql 125 to sell. These where the days when EVERYONE, even the 5 or 6 other Traders on RK (there was only RK1) were all using a pair Freedom Arms pistols. No one used or sold shotguns (who else out there remembers July; the world was full of blue people; no decus coats; it was bau & waitt, everywhere you looked ).

Self-made. Self-equipped. Non-twinked. Worked for everything I owned.

Were she still active, she'd be doing -40% less damage, unless she deprived/ransacked everything prior to combat... with the shotgun that she equipped herself.

Go ahead now... tell me that what I did was wrong.

-Templar Red

[camilaen]

Originally posted by Shamx



Morgoth,

First you keep sayin Implants, Implants, Implants. If you actually did some research you would know that if you had max implants (QL200) and were using the bright, shining, and faded clusters for a skill you would gain 207 points. Thats all no more.

Secondly, you say a sub 100 has a demon BS!
Demon takes 870 Matter Creation and Time & Space.
Nano skills are capped at 430 below lvl 100
You cannot have more than a Shining T&S and a Bright and faded matter creation implant in at the same time. SO let just say for the sake of your arguement WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE,
that We had a MP with max skill 430 and they had ql200 imps

So 430 skill +102 from imps (which they couldn't wear due to the 946 Treatment and 404 Secondary requirements) = 532. Ok lets say he's uber and got a Neleb Coat so +8 = 540. Lets say he's more uber and got Mochamed +140 = 680 . And of course lets not forget The +20 from the general buffs = 700 .. Hmm ok so unless there's a 170 wrangle...

Why don't you actually think before making an ass out of yourself.

Now I know this isn't my post, but I can't help but intervene.
Demon does not take 870 in skill. And the skill cap on nanoskills differs for each class/breed..

But I have too seen MP's under 100 have demons following them around. So it is doable.. A lot of stuff is doable

[Drabin]

FC - just submit an in game poll - one time poll for each account. Frankly, in game I hear more people approving this patch than disapproving. I speak for my guild and say that everyone of my guild support the patch.

Concerns - Traders debuffing in PvP. Please make sure that trader debuffs in PvP along with MP debuffs in PvP are 50 percent resistable. I've always felt (since I PvP alot) that major debuffs outweigh the balance of PvP far too much. Otherwise, set the PvP debuff time for nanos to 30 seconds period. That means anytime a trader or MP attempts to debuff using ransack/deprive or dominate - they only last 30 seconds.

The MP nano (nano shutdown) should not be allowed for use against a player character in PvP. If you continue to allow it, it should have the same casting penalties as the NT Nullity line. (i.e. the mp should become rooted, have an 6 to 8 second recharge rate - and not be able to reuse it for 1 full minute)

I like the IPR - fantastic and much needed. Thanks for putting that out.

I like the OE rules you are implementing however, If it were me I would have just removed the trader line of wrangle completely and kept the MP buffs to self cast only.

[hexxia]

Originally posted by Angel2000



Err the pet command are the same for each lvl pet,
/pet attack
/pet follow
/pet behind

In a roleplaying manner i see my char saying: [petname] Attack!

Its a robot, a lifeless thing that follows commands, so the bit you just posted is balony
Have fun eating your balony

now you see /pet attack isnt "role play" I understand it may be difficult for some to follow logic, but I try.

[Highorbit]

... They don't expect people to control a bot with stupidly long attack strings, it's impractical...

Basically since the world is based around nano-tech surely it's then just down to the control of that tech.

You don't necessarily say "Oi... pet... attack", you communicate with it through nanos and they are dependant on your level..

[_________Dogberry545]

Angel2000.....

Yes, very droll. You roll out the glib /pet (command) routine.
Ha Ha. Very funny.

As a point the original comments (ie not being able to comminicate with the robot once buff had worn off) was a good one, as if shows that time and thought into the imaginative processes behind the game had been thought of - ROLE playing!!

It is precisely for this reason that Soldiers are good at fighting with ranged weapons, docs are good at healing and the Nano at creating effects with nanobots.

This is what has been forgotten by the gamers who want the flashiest and deadliest items at lvl 1.

DB545

[Skalhus]

Originally posted by Rhayden


I think you're upset, right? Well, you should be. This patch is flawed to bits by just looking at the patch notes. :P

hi im upset to, let us be what we can be.
We have so much rules anyway in life let this be the world of possybilitys not a plase for rules!!

br: miraoo7

[_________Master Wong]

I am TIRED and SICk of al the crying about how this 14.2 going to making you old time players game no fun.All you do is cheat.NOw the game will be more fair for normal players because the game will be more even!Dont you see,this has to be done.The game is going to change,accept it ok.Wong offers you a fortune cookie.Pls stop your cries.

Wong Bows to u

[_____________Zhubarb]

Hold on a minute funcom,

From what i can see all your doing is making this over equipping stuff a whole lot more hazy and making the gap in pvp even bigger. Traders with a single debuff will knock someones skill down so they are over the 20% OE mark, reducing there damage by 25% aswell as the fact that there skill has just been dropped anyway.

If someone pushes there equipment right to the edge of the 20% with self buffs running etc, anybody casting an inexperience will knock there opponents damage down by 25%.

Debuffs against pet proffesions are gonna kill them, if a mob casts an unmake on them or whatever there pet kills them then goes into behind mode, and leaves the caster to deal with the other two mobs that aggroed on him alone. Just an example.

Wrangles will still be needed, if your lvl 15 and you have a lvl 85-100 weapon as some of the super twinks do then its only going to take it down to a 63 or a 75 lvl weapon, there 1000 ac's will only be reduced to 750 which is still a big OE. Also debuffs will have no effect on these guys who have already been hit by the - 25% damage.

Funcom all your doing is changing how we twink not making it any more even. It just means those with stacks of money and time who can supertwink there character will do even better now, those who twink up to the 20% OE mark will suffer more, with the exception of pet classes who will suffer even more.

I do think there is perhaps a lot of whining from engineers etc who for some mad reason think they should be soloing against deep red mobs. No one should be able to solo reds without using great skill and tactics. The problem is a lot of people have been playing this way for so long they take it for granted and no one is to blame for that other than funcom themselves. The idea behind this patch is good but its not going to work.

My idea to sort the over equipping problem would be to keep the 20% OE mark, that still leaves some room for those who want to twink but instead of hitting them with a -25% damage introduce a degradation system for weapons and armour, and pets. So if you are more than 20% OE your items will degrade rapidly perhaps in ql or whatever and your pet will last only a fraction of the time but will remain under control. If you dont exeed the 20% OE mark then you will be fine your weapons and armour will never degrade and your pet will last and last. DEBUFFS would NOT cause this to happen so when that trader ransacks you your gun wont start falling apart. This check would simply be checked against your stats + implants + any self buffs you have running. That of course causes an issue if your self buff runs out but i think we could live with that, or maybe theres another solution to that point.

There would still be an issue with people buffing up to get over equipped implants but i dont see this as much of a problem, perhaps the same degradation system would work here where once your buffs etc that you used to get the implant in have worn off then the implants reduce in ql. Perhaps reducing to the equivelent ql for your skills to match the skill req of the implant, the same could be done for weapons.

I could sit and talk all day about alternatives to over equipping but there isnt enough time, all I can say is the way funcom are about to do it is NOT the way that will work.

[___________Angel2000]

Originally posted by hexxia


now you see /pet attack isnt "role play" I understand it may be difficult for some to follow logic, but I try.

Sheesh another person who needs a pair of glasses :
If you look closer to your screen you can see i followed that statement with the fact that i see my character saying : [petname] attack!

Now we could go in a deep discussion on how diffrent people see roleplaying in a diffrent way, thing is _I_ will roleplay MY way.
i will not roleplay _YOUR_ way.

Im not dissing your style of roleplaying dont get me wrong, im just saying that _I_ dont see a diffrence in the fact of saying : [petname] attack!
to a mindless droid of higher or lower lvl quality....