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Thread: Concealment

  1. #21

    Post

    As an adventurer let me put my 2 credits in on this discussion. Sneaking used to be the best part of the game for me. I would take hard missions just for the money. Was it fair? yes! Why? Because, it takes a long time to sneak through missions. I would spend on average 2-4 hours on most missions (I like being tourough and checking every room). Aside from the money and items from chests the reason I did it was because it was teeth grinding fear and excitement. You had to be very skilled to open a chest, turn sneak back on, loot item, turn sneak back on, close chest, and trun sneak back on again without a red mob seeing you. What really made it tense was that you knew if the mob spotted you, you were dead. You had to time everything just right and even when you did, you still got noticed and killed a couple times per mission.

    Being an adventurer I am a soloist. It was a challenge just to survive and that's why I want to be able to sneak through missions again. IMHO it is not unballancing because you generally spend 3 times the amount of time a soldier or other class would take to finish a mission and you don't get any tokens. All it's really good for is the excitement and the money.

    There will always be those who do something that was not intended with a skill but sneaking is a viable alternative play style and should be allowed. The benefits are few since you can't get tokens unless you kill the mobs so why not put it back like it was?

    Even the money reward is crap these days on misisons..the average mission at lv 50 nets me about 10k when at lv 28 I was making 40k per mission on an even mission. Hell, I have trouble buying med kits, chargers, and nano first aid kits now.
    Sinclare
    LV 63 Adventurer
    RubiKa2

  2. #22

    Re: Ooh gimme their names lucidflow

    Originally posted by Zarch
    And I say they are full of ****.

    See? No matter what kind of evidence anybody shows you, you still yell hogwash for no reason what so ever. The guy is wearing full elite/nano cloak, none of which he bought (except the gloves). He snuck for all the pieces in the very hard range on the mission slider. I even asked him to sneak a mission for me.

    Don't ask me how he does it. I don't play any sneaky type class. He just does.

  3. #23
    He does it same way than I do...

    I enter mission. AH! First room, no monster but a chest! Lets open chest. WOW! QL 136 Nano Helmet. Lucky me...

    Or

    He sneaks first 10 rooms and 2 of those dont have mob but have chest. He opens those and gets loot. He moves to room 11 BLAM mob sees him. He runs out or goes to run mode and runs through the mission and with combination of luck and skill finds the item before his HP runs out.

    Yes. I can get chest loot. No, I dont get them in a room with monster EXCEPT in a case miracle happens (like once per 100 missions) and I am doing those small ones and find the item. I get the item and wow, no mob in this room. I sneak to next with mob and chest. Hell, since I have already found the item, no risk. I open chest and grab the loot. Monster comes and kills me. Well, it was still worth it...

    Thats how we get chest loot.

    BTW. My bet is still good. Wanna take it?

    Zarch and bunch of other chars. No. I no longer play with my Agent. I am mostly playing with my Enforcer, Soldier, Engineer and MP

    PS. The only succesfull sneaks are made in a small dungeons of less than 20 rooms. Anything over that and I usually know I am going to fail unless I get lucky and item is in first few rooms. I have yet to sneak through more than 20 rooms with this current "tune". Thats a fact.

  4. #24
    Here was an accidental experiment that I ran last night. I got a 50% mission as usual. I decided to fight my way through, because I was having such miserable luck trying to sneak anything. I did my standard buffs, including shadow crown, but I left off FP:adv and POG. I also didn't use my cloaker.

    Wanna know something, I was able to go into sneak, and waltz into each and every room and be completely ignored by the mobs. I even jumped up and down a bit to try and aggro them (staying in sneak of course).. nothing... none of them would aggro until I started shooting.. now, that says to me that one of the following may be broken:

    • Pronouncement of Greatness
    • Cloakers
    • Find and identify missions (I ran an assassinate last night)
      The previous 4 I failed at were all Find and Identify. In those, I never made it past the front room without being seen.


    Anyway, this is food for thought..

  5. #25
    Yup, happens to me also doing that, using FP/Adven/POG, and I have found that my attack speed drops as well as my damage.
    Was wondering if it was me, glad someone else has found this.

    Lt. Grupert
    Division 9 R.S.G.E.

  6. #26
    i am sorry to say this but i am happy with the agent changes. a agent can make some Uber cash simply sneeking though missions. now although they did invest alot of skill into that. it is unfare ot the rest of the classes who have to go thouhg and fight there way in-out.
    Level 132 Nano-Techniction <---- Retired till NT fix
    Level 72. Engineer <---- why is my pet running the wrong way?
    Level 69. Agent <---- Retired sence Concealment Nerf.
    Level 58. Adventure <---- TONS of lost ip.
    Level 41. Meta.<--- Mp's are too uber.
    Level 30. Enforcer <---- press "Q" and watch tv.
    Level 29. Doc <---- Can't..... Find.... Group.....

    Quote of the week "When people complain equally about all of the classes, then the game is balanced."

  7. #27

    Lightbulb My thoughts on concealment

    you know those analigies you get on the SATs and stuff?

    concealment is to an agent concealment as health is to an enforcer
    concealment is to an agent concealment as pets are to an MP
    concealment is to an agent concealment as fists are to an MA

    the point is, which has been said before, concealment is the reason one chooses to be an agent and it is expected to work just as other profession's specialties do.

    how concealment should work:

    obviously, it shouldn't be 100% effective but it shouldn't seem like when you're in sneak, you're glowing bright green and making bell noises each step you take. it should fail when a mob's perception cannot be cancelled out by your conceal (based on whatever ratio you choose). it should fail when you intentionally turn it off, attack, or draw attention to yourself. it should not fail when lockpicking doors. it should not give out randomly.

    most importantly, it should not turn off when you pick something up. this is the whole idea of spying. slink inside unnoticed, aquire the objective item and any other items you find useful, and slink back out. I don't see the logic in you being noticed when you take an item. by this reasoning, you should also be noticed when you open a door to walk through it.

    if an agent sneaks a mission without being noticed, a token should be awarded. many agents have no emphasis on HP and therefor can't force thier way through a mission like a soldier or enforcer. its thier specialty to be unnoticed (haha, or is supposed to be) so if they can do that successfully, thier task has been completed and should be rewarded.

    my final thought is that if conceal isn't turned into a powerful tool for an agent, please rename the profession to rifleman. because conceal makes them an agent. without it, they're a rifle with some not-too-fancy nano tricks

  8. #28

    Angry

    NERF CONCEALMENT MORE! STILL TO STRONG!

    all these winers wana do is sneek through missions and make serous cash. concealment should NOT work in missions. i am totally serous.
    Level 132 Nano-Techniction <---- Retired till NT fix
    Level 72. Engineer <---- why is my pet running the wrong way?
    Level 69. Agent <---- Retired sence Concealment Nerf.
    Level 58. Adventure <---- TONS of lost ip.
    Level 41. Meta.<--- Mp's are too uber.
    Level 30. Enforcer <---- press "Q" and watch tv.
    Level 29. Doc <---- Can't..... Find.... Group.....

    Quote of the week "When people complain equally about all of the classes, then the game is balanced."

  9. #29
    You have some serious issues..

    According to the charts at:
    http://www.anarchylore.com/AO_skillscomp.asp

    There are at least 7, count them, 7 professions who can make sneaking missions viable. Look at concealment. 3 have green skills and 4 have light blue (note: I cannot personally verify all of these, but I know some of them are right from talking to other classes).

    It's narrow minded people who want nerfs.. it's thickheaded people who actually publicly ask for them.


    Originally posted by Lozer
    NERF CONCEALMENT MORE! STILL TO STRONG!

    all these winers wana do is sneek through missions and make serous cash. concealment should NOT work in missions. i am totally serous.
    Last edited by Hodaka; Nov 29th, 2001 at 15:25:48.

  10. #30

    cloakers

    somebody way up there suggested that cloakers might be bugged. I agree. I just recently got a cloaker, and they work fine. untill the sneak breaks. after sneak has broken its a very high probability you wont be able to re-sneak (unless you zone/relog) sure, you will be walking slowly, but any mob can spot you.

    solution: stop using cloakers (for now. let them fix them) I use them only for roleplaying occations (I love being semi transparent :P). Do your missions the good old way.

    And as a comment to that adventurer way up there: I know! sneaking missions = excitement! thrilling, sweatproducing horror! and not to mention the huge joy and satisfaction of a completed mission. I really dont mind that sneak breaks when mission is completed. its just a very nice way of getting transported back to mission booth

  11. #31

    Re: Re: Ooh gimme their names lucidflow

    Originally posted by Lucid Flow



    See? No matter what kind of evidence anybody shows you, you still yell hogwash for no reason what so ever. The guy is wearing full elite/nano cloak, none of which he bought (except the gloves). He snuck for all the pieces in the very hard range on the mission slider. I even asked him to sneak a mission for me.

    Don't ask me how he does it. I don't play any sneaky type class. He just does.
    Well thats great, maybe you can get him to come here and tell us how. I wouldn't exactly call "I know a guy who can do it" evidence. I'm 123 and have about 1600 conceal fully buffed and really have no chance in hell in sneaking anything unless its one of those fluke small sized missions, but I could blitz those anyway so thats not really an advantage. I've now done about 80 missions since 13.0 and there has been no change whatsoever.

    I have so far met exactly 0 Agents who are 100+ who say they can 'sneak' missions on a "regular basis". Of those 80 missions I've done I was only able to complete exactly 1 in which it wasn't a small-sized dungeon layout by some fluke that I found it quickly and picked up the item before I died.

  12. #32
    im lvl 137 agent and i can get to 1700 conceal fully buffed and i can sneak past anything except Ace mobs, so you guys are doing something wrong.

  13. #33
    Another "you're all wrong, I am right" post.. go over to the forums at agentsector.com and contribute to the sneaking thread then.. everyone would value your tips..

    The fact is, conceal breaks. Funcom had said they broke conceal on purpose, and they would restore it when they had a PVP solution. They even said they were going to restore it in a set of patch notes. It NEVER went back to the pre-12.6 ease. Instead, they've given us something else. Is it as easy as 12.5? Heck, no! Should it be back to the 12.5 ease? Probably not.. Is it workable? Yes, definitely.. as Agents we have learned to adapt over and over and over again as they nerf us.

    However, just because you say there's nothing wrong, doesn't mean people aren't still having problems. Consider yourself lucky..


    Originally posted by Phionna
    im lvl 137 agent and i can get to 1700 conceal fully buffed and i can sneak past anything except Ace mobs, so you guys are doing something wrong.

  14. #34
    well, I know for one thing that cloacking devices are bugged, what i do is bring a mob into the first room and keep zoning in and out until finally the mob doesnt attack you when you enter, this means it is working properly

  15. #35
    I finally become 112 and tried som full hard misions.
    I dont use adv nanos for additonal concealment, as i find fixernanos alot more useful.
    My conceal is 1200something with taren2 and and ql125 cloaking device.

    I succeded sneaking in several missions. But if missions tend to be large conceal break sooner or later.
    I think i managed to sneak past Ace's too.

    Many of the missions included several deaths before i could complete them or i managed to run out and had to wait until mob walked out.

    The biggest problem i see is when there is a mob in first room, even at medium diff i can have problems with killing the mob. With mob there thats attacks you, you never have chance to sneak the mission at all. Something must be done with this!

    Next it also seems like a bigger chance that conceal breakes after missions is completed.

    If there is no chance that conceal will break, sneaking would be boring after a while i think.

  16. #36
    Originally posted by Phionna
    im lvl 137 agent and i can get to 1700 conceal fully buffed and i can sneak past anything except Ace mobs, so you guys are doing something wrong.
    I am also 137 as of now and just as an experiment have swapped in QL200 concealment implants, buffed up with MP MGs and trader wrangles to cast Ruse3 and went into a 50% mission and STILL got seen with over 2,000 in conceal!

    Yeah, I can sneak past an Ace mob too. Then 2 rooms later another lesser mob will see me and I'll be dead. whoot.

  17. #37

    I finally found the reason why I couldnt sneak

    Have to tell you it was getting ridiculous with people that had 200 less conceal than me sneaking without problems and saying I am just an amateur. Bah, how can you be amateur when its game value compared to other game value

    Well the reason I found was my working cloaking device.

    All those people who didnt have any problems have a broken cloacking device. One which dont give any damage but gives conceal.

    If you have one that is working like intended (ie does damage tics) mobs see you in no time. It took some time to pinpoint it to this particular item because it was working before ok so I think this came with the new monster "listening" code that listens for chest openings etc. and now they hear your damage or whatever.

    End result? I tossed my cloak device and almost 300 conceal away and sneak just fine. I still get spotted most of the time but usually I have been able to map quite much of the dungeon by that time. For me, the conceal is working about as it should now.. problem is, that after I add again QL 150 cloak device (after I find one that is broken and dont do damage) it will be too easy...

    Oh well. Atleast its ok for me now without it (risk vs reward).

    Zarch and bunch of other chars

    PS. Even if I had 100% sure success rate you still wouldnt see me doing that many missions. I absolutely hate them. I know many would and thats problem.

  18. #38

    Re: I finally found the reason why I couldnt sneak

    Originally posted by Zarch

    ...
    Well the reason I found was my working cloaking device.

    All those people who didnt have any problems have a broken cloacking device. One which dont give any damage but gives conceal.
    ...
    I've got one like that, but still can't really sneak missions - could you be more specific about what kind of details surround your character when you do missions?

  19. #39
    When sneaking missions i use maxed skill, taren2 and ql125 cloaking device. Nothing more, nothing or less.

    Havent tried sneak missions my level(130) but i except to be detected when sneaking missions 50lvls above my level. Else it would be no fun, and destroy the game.

    Im not sure of any other factors that helps me sneak missions.

  20. #40

    speaking as one of those 'other classes'

    The problem with fixing concealment is that most people can't get their skill up to the ungodly skill levels Agents can. Fixer, for instance, despite having the second best skill curve for concealment, is a distant fourth (maybe fifth) as far as concealment buffs.

    For a reasonably fair PVP implementation they'd need to make it so that 1/3 or even 1/4 Perception would spot you. But I'm not so concerned with PVP dynamics.

    I used to enjoy sneaking through some missions.. when a mob caught me, I'd generally fight it, so it's not like I was doing 80-100% missions or something. More like 50%, typically, sometimes less.

    Concealment needs to lower mob awareness, within a reasonable minimum. Grey mobs, you should be able to totally hide from if your conceal is better than their perception.

    It makes sense to me that you should still have to avoid mobs to some extent, even when using concealment. What bothers me about implementing some sort of minimum awareness radius is that sometimes missions lag and you won't SEE that the mob is right on top of you until after it already is.

    What needs to change is that all NPC mobs appear to have maximum for their level in every skill (judging by the nanos they cast, their fighting abilities, and their ability to spot hiddens), including Perception.

    I guess there's not much to say.. I long for a working concealment that benefits people other than agents without making agents uberpowerful (again.)

    P.S. To whoever mentioned NPCs.. Fixer Perception is just as good as Agent, so enemy fixers would spot you as well :P

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