Concealment

[Maegen]

Quote from beginning:

"should be used as pets are used for MPs/Engies/Crats - IT should be a powerful tool "

-as far as i can tell the only pet strong enough as a powerful tool is the engies pet. this whole discussion has been about SOLOing and not TEAM aspect. MPs pets die the fastest, they might hit hard, but they die fast so, not powerful. crats droid would be the same, but takes a little bit harder beating, but hits considerably less than the MP pet so... not powerful again. you idea to begin with is on uneven grounds. (i'm not saying concealment needs a fix just going about with unbalanced ideals)

"1) When doing missions, conceal never just "goes off". If you are seen, you should have the chance to run "out of the line of sight" and then conceal again.
"

-agreed, as long as you don't run into a room with another mob OR a room that is completely empty, how can you conceal again in a bare room?

"2) There should always be perception vs conceal checks, and make the mobs have REALISTIC perception levels. Honestly the only thing that should see a maxed out agent is another agent so a Veteran Clan Spy should have a CHANCE to see you, other classes probably shouldn't. "

-that would be fair for other professions to say "the only thing that has a chance to damage my Warbot is another Engineer mob that understands the mechanics of my Warbot, other classes probably shouldn't" (might be overexaggerated a bit, but point is still visible)

"3) agents are COVERT, why can't we sneak into missions, unlock doors/go through water etc without conceal staying? IMO only combat or a perception vs conceal roll should break my conceal. You say they can hear me, so what if they can't SEE me they can't attack!!! "

-first part totally agree. there should be other factors that break conceal also, perhaps an empty room or trash/squeaky spots on floors(if it could be implimented). in real life when someone is sneaking up on you and they step on something on the floor your immediate attention is diverted to them. to counter this action what if mobs have a STUNed effect for lets say 5-10 seconds after unconcealing someone. (you are sneaking by and the mob hears you step on that crumpled piece of paper you didn't happen to notice, turns around and notices you. they are startled at the fact and it takes them 5-10 seconds to regain their senses and prepair for an attack.)

"4) I would like to conceal work in enemy cities against guards. How can agents get intelligence if the guards blast us? Again if we do something to attack that breaks. IE in 2ho if a clan agent is concealed and guards don't attack, as soon as they attack or get attacked, that conceal breaks and the guards can step in."

-nicely put

"5) When missions goto stealth setting i want this to have more RP stuf for agents. Make our conceal more about just getting cash from missions, high level agents get/have more cash then we will ever use, we like to sneak to FEEL like we are agents. "

-more cash than you ever will use?! make it sound like you don't appreciate having cash. not sure how true this is neither. but the jist of your idea is good.

[Routeen]

Okay, some facts:

Almost everyone at high lvls can run missions w/o any real difficulty.

I routinely (hehe) calm missions 210+ -- i even calmed a 250 for kicks. Aside from Ace Programthief, i rarely have any trouble.

Others can do them even faster by running them.

Being jealous of conceal here is a bit comical. Personally, I think the ability to run missions (however it is done) needs to be completely removed -- although it its own sort of fun, it completely destroys the economy, since you can get anything you want.

I think the best solution is to have the pick up missions be different in kind from the rest -- have different lvls of loot, and maybe an entirely different structure. Alarms, for example. Much weaker loot. More chances of alerting mobs when chests are opened. Make it fun and challenging, with some decision pts.

As far as conceal in general goes, a limited sort of invisibility, including vs. tab conning, seems interesting. Anything that would tempt others to raise their perception has value here.

Varying the perception of mobs on sensible lines, not just based on their power, also makes sense. Soldiers, agents, monsters with good senses of smell -- all should have higher perceptions. It makes sense that certain types of sentries would be very hard to avoid. A mission, for example, where the agent had to quietly kill some sentries before sneaking past others would be really neat.

[______________Takuan]

I personally would kill for concealment to work in PVP. MA's get the skill as light blue and I would easily dump a few levels into it to be able to sneak up on people ninja style. I would think that the only ones that would be able to detect me would be agents (makes sense) with their super high perception.

This would totaly rock and add a little depth to PVP

We need this to work in pvp now please

[_____________Yureiko]

I posted this elsewhere but it seems to belong in this thread...(didn't notice the thread when I posted.)

This idea is based on the fact that Fixers (and agents) have these wonderful concealment abilities and nanos but, in terms of experience awards, it does not get one anywhere. That is, even if one set a mission up to the highest experience award, one could not get the amount of experience one would if they fought all the MObs in the mission.

This concept comes from pen and paper RPGs where players are given experience for a successful encounter, regardless of whether the opponent was killed in combat. By successful encounter, I am refering to meeting a creature and either by bypassing combat by talking him out of it, fighting him and killing him, or sneaking past him without him being aware.

Now, the first means is not an option in this game because mobs don't coverse with you. However, one can sneak around mobs. So, this is how it would work.

Every mob has a percentage chance to notice you (the sneaker) based on his level of perception. If you sneak by a mob, you would toggle a flag that says encounter successful. But you would not get the experience immediately, because there is still a chance that mob will see you (like if you pass through again running from something that DID notice you.) And you would not get a second toggle if you by pass that same mob again. One toggle, one creature. For every flag you toggle (every creature you sneak past) you will be rewarded that creature's worth of experience when and only when you leave the mission after completing it so long as none of the mobs you snuck past were not killed. (In the case of return item missions, at the time of mission completion.)

There are ways that this could be exploited if implented as stated above. For example, if you team up with an engineer (like I frequently do) and he stays in the mission he can warp you back in. The way around this would be to implement the necessity of having a key to get into a mission. Thus, once the fixer/agent leaves the mission after completing it he could not get back in to kill all the mobs. If the engineer or any other team members stay to kill off the mobs that would not hurt your experience. And they would not get a concealment bonus.

However, if at any time combat is initiated before the mission is completed you would lose all of the successful encounter flags you have banked. In other words, once combat starts in a mission, you will not gain experience for concealment.

So, in summary:

1) a player toggles a successful encounter flag when he successfully sneaks past a MOB

2) when combat is initiated, all flags are lost and no more can be toggled

3) when mission is completed and player exits he will gain the experience for each creature as if he fought them.

4) Player may not return to mission after he gains experience.

5. Players cannot get into missions without keys.

So that's it! I think the only real issue people might have is the "cannot get into missions without keys" part", but even if you have an engineer with warp beacon, it's not that hard. He can give the master key to whover is building the team out of the mission and everyone will have one.

[siriuslea]

Somehow I think that Funcom is going to think that your plan is too little risk for too much reward. Perhaps this could be addressed by making these concealment missions different missions from the regular ones.

There are a few points I don't understand. Why do you think that if any combat is intiated the sneaking experience should be lost? Perhaps you have more success in sneaking an entire mission than I. It is rare that you can exit a mission without some combat.

And I don't see what the big deal is about killing a mob after someone has snuck by it. I see that you think that a mob should only generate a certain amount of exp but a players real currency is time: exp in killing a mob is actually generated by the amount of damage you inflict upon it.

[_____________Yureiko]

Let me explain:

" Why do you think that if any combat is intiated the sneaking experience should be lost? Perhaps you have more success in sneaking an entire mission than I. It is rare that you can exit a mission without some combat. " -- Hermione

First of all, the possible exploitation of such a system was considered heavily. (Something that I am not sure FunCom does in advance. )

Basically the requirement that you are fully succesful at sneaking in and out is because of two things.

1) Any mob who notices you and consequently fights you, will in an RP sense contact security.

2) It also keeps any team mates, should you bring any, from fighting while you sneak. And that, actually is the big reason. It is easy to see that someoen would try to bring in a team and while he is sneaking and getting exp for it on one side, the rest are fighting on the other side and getting exp. So, it has to be all or nothing to prevent that.


"And I don't see what the big deal is about killing a mob after someone has snuck by it. I see that you think that a mob should only generate a certain amount of exp but a players real currency is time: exp in killing a mob is actually generated by the amount of damage you inflict upon it." -- Hermione

Because of the above stated reason. It is to avoid explointg. If you could kill it after you got the sneak bonus, you would. (Or many people would, that is.)

Funcom would certainly not allow the ability to get the experience for the same goober twice. So, it is clear in this idea that this would not be possible.

I was not aware how exp was generated, but for sneaking it could be an award equal to that average exp for the critter or the highest. After all, sneaking by is almost as risky as getting in combat.

Because if they see you, you get in combat. It is certainly more suspenseful trying to get past someone then simply running in a pointing a gun at them.

Actually, it may not be as risky but it takes as much skill, and that's why it should be treated the same. I would spend as much IP in my concealment as I do, my weapon.

However, as stated before, if you completed your mission, and left behind a team to combat everything that's fine. So long as you are not there. They would not get any of your conceal exp. It only goes to the sneaker.

Keep in mind, this does not require you to sneak past everything in the dungeon. Just everything between you and your goal.

This wouod also give pople reason to use that skill. Look on the agent and fixer forums. Have of the people that post there, rarely use the skill and put little IP in it. Why? Because the the reward for sneaking through a mission is not equal to wading through and blasting everything.

Now, the only trouble I am having with this idea, is the sneak attack skill. If one could take out the person in a certain time (like a few seconds) or with one shot (thereby not really leaving sneaking) then maybe the banked flags would not be lost.

[______________Jahmai]

I do feel agents should do well at conceal but since this is an open skill system the benefit should affect all classes. However a simple fix would be to expand the false proffesion lines to include false alignment. This would not affect missions since the intrusionary break in would reveal to the mobs the nature of the agent's visit. Agents would then be able to slip past enemy guards to reach distant locations. This would be logical since agents are an allusive concept. Becomeing essentially invisible not by hiding but by blending. This would also essentially disguise the agent in PVP. Ofcourse this would and should be cancelled out in the event of political combat. Agents would still be restricted from attacking politically aligned players (the true alignment). Also agents in a falseto mode should be given a random name to hide their identity or perhaps an interactive name as in the way pet classes name their helpers. This scenario would make agents what they are supposed to be ; an invisible class; everyone and no one. Any one you meet could be an agent for or against your politics, hence beware who guards your back! I'm still at the early stages of my agent's development so my opineon is not very educated but i dont really feel agents should have false proffesions except for the purpose of illusion or maybe non combat buffs with 50% reduction to potency and duration. That's just my opineon. Happy hunting..

[Shadelore]

Concealment is funny, and totally screwed. I used to sneak ql 200 missions,with some difficulty,and havent sneaked lower ones since lvl 112. Surely I expect to fail on some, BUT...

Been sneaking a few 50% & 60% ones just to quickly grab up some nanos I missed without having to fight it..

Well, I was without exception spotted,even more frequently than when sneaking a ql 200 one, wtf is this crap? Inverted difficulty setting??

I used to think ppl whined a tad bit too much bout sneaking,but I just jumped in on the wagon there...Something is crazy wrong..

[siriuslea]

After plenty of experimentation with sneaking, and the understanding that the only stat relevant is conceal. It seems that sneak only works if your sneak is at the right lvl in relation to the mobs perception, not just 'higher' than the mobs perception check.

Meaning if you are trying to sneak past mobs 1 1/2 your lvl at a full hard mission setting your sneak should be really the max you can achieve with buffs etc.; as an agent I can buff adventurer buffs stacked with agent buffs as well as a cloaking device.

But if you are sneaking past mobs similar to your level, you should stick with agent buffs. And if the mobs are grey, perhaps no buffs is the way to go except that your natural sneak skill might be too high and therefore difficult to sneak past grey mobs.

[____________Fenestra]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NikkiDial
[B]Either more professions get a chance to viably sneak missions or no one should.


This suggestion is bull****. Fixers can buff their runspeed to 1500-2000 and blast through missions like hurricanes. Yeah - all the mobs in the area will probably aggro them, but they don't stand a chance to follow. I've been doing missions this way lately with my agent, and it's a dream compared to sneaking. Just add some concealment, then go fixer and max-buff your run speed. If you ever get detected you can just run. This is the absolutely fastest way to get missions rewards. So taking sneaking or concelment away from agents - just another step towards this rediculous "everyone has the same abilities and possibilites"...

I TOTALLY agree with the first post in this thread - every single word. I'd like to add some details about sneaking and PvP.
When you are in sneak mode, you don't show up on the map as a symbol. However, my perception is 700 and I still cannot see a lvl30 player in "sneak mode" no matter what his concealment might be... This has to be fixed - seriously! If I put 500 000 IP into my perception skill instead of evades or body dev, there should be an advantage to this. I'd be able to see people before I run into them. Sneaking enforcers... what a sad JOKE!

Fix the perception-concealment check for all situations including PvP!

Fix the perception-concealment check for all situations including PvP!

Fix the perception-concealment check for all situations including PvP!

Fix the perception-concealment check for all situations including PvP!

(Hitler liked repeating himself, and it worked.)

[_________haniblecter]

Originally posted by NikkiDial
Either more professions get a chance to viably sneak missions or no one should. Agents have too much crap already just with their ability to change to other professions. Heck its silly having my 87 agent friends sneaking through my level 200 missions without being seen. Weeeee lets just add up all the bonuses possible to an agent for sneak. Self profession buffs, Off professions buffs, Main skill, Implants, 1k board, Cloaks, general buffs and items. This skill is so exploitable when you look at missions that Funcom has to boost the reqs WAYYYYYYYYYYY past what any other profession can really obtain. Heck seagal and zarloc (level 200 agents) could get over 2400 sneak as a level 200 agent. Thats just insane and completely BROKEN! There is no way you can balance that out without making it so a few people can completely ruin an economy by easily sneaking missions quickly and without fear of being noticed.

If you want items fight through the mission or run through it but sneaking is just TOOOOOOO easy. I have to and every other non agent has too. Why should you be given a skill that so easily unbalances everything else. You already have a game breaking ability in your FP lines. If you want to sneak though more professions should get the same chance as agents get. Really how many guards would just stare at a door opening up and watch as someone sneaked through the dorrway. Its silly not realistic and shouldnt be allowed.

Sneak might be more usefull if you could have it so mobs lose you if you enter a new room and go into sneak mode but even that has exploits because of the unnaturally high levels agents can boost their sneak abilities. Running and fighting arent too hard and are very possible for any profession to do. I see no reason to give yet another bonus to a profession when so many have had so much taken away. Anyways anything done with this skill should have every profession in mind rather than JUST one that doesnt need it to be good.

All this from a guy with a nic from aporn star.......get a life. Agents have been fVcked around for so long that we want a workable skill. Conceal is ours, if you start *****in ill make sure the nerf stick gets stuck waaaaaay up your @ss!

[Graxxus]

I'd like to see very little information about players from a different affiliation. When tabbing the player and hitting t I don't want to know the player's or the mob's profession, race or level for that matter. That information should only be retrievable by players using information tools. This would allow for more uses of perception and for concealment. PvP wouldn't be as clear cut and we would have to rely more on visual appearance as well as the color of their health bars to us to determine possible threats.