Change to graphics rendering in 13.7 & high-level griefers, what is their problem?

[____________Greystar]

Originally posted by Miir

In the meantime one of the best lvl 80-110 hunting areas on Rubi-Ka has been destroyed for both clanners and omni alike

There's plenty of hunting 80-110.

Name a few "viable" spots outdoors for players of that level range from those "plenty", must be easy for you to do.

The only hunting spots that were destroyed were the static NPCs and the super-underpowered medusas. Medusas are now balanced in power to other level 150ish mobs. [/B]

Yes, they are so "balanced" that exactly 0 players hunt them in AO now. Not even high level players 150+, as they are now way too strong compared to any other higher level mob in this game.

[________________Xoch]

*sigh*

Well, this is probably going to get one of the following responses again:

- I'm too low level to know
- I have nothing new to say
- My kind ruined AC (that one really got me lol)

But ok, Tetra:

[b]If you want to say you think something should be a certain way that's one thing but seeing as you don't actually have any experience at the levels of the game being discussed you really have no place in the discussion, especially when it comes to telling those who have said experience they are wrong or stupid./b]

Would you care to tell me exactly what I did not understand in the discussion? Is there anything relevant to this discussion that I cannot have knowledge of because I'm low level? Really, before you make that assumption please make sure that you know what you are talking about. I don know that there currently is a lack of high level outdoor hunting areas. For the record, where did I call anyone stupid, I know I called you an idiot but that was because you told me to ....

You say that this was the last 75% high level hunting ground but as I understood it from other posts, this was basically a Clan hunting ground with clan shops and safe points nearby. I must admit that I don't have first hand knowledge of that so I could be wrong. If this indeed had advantages for clan, I think it is only fair to take it away.

You end the discussion about the popularity of pvp in games like this in one sentence. As a matter of fact a lot of pvp minded people came to AO because of the pvp conflict. That is exactly what makes me think that there are more pvppro minded people in this game than in any other online game at the moment.

Another thing, I don't support griefers, I'm not defending griefers, thats what you make of it. I'm all for solving problems with griefers with a group. But I said that before and your response is that it's boring as hell. Please explain me how defending Mort is more boring than killing the same monster over and over again in Mort when it was 75% to gain xp.

you my "friend" meet the same qualifications in that you are a low level newbie who thinks they understand high level game play and issues.

I'm honored but I rather choose my own friends.

You and Kopo both don't like PvP, thats your right. At the same time a lot of players who bought the game because of the player driven conflict and PvP love this game because of it. Threads like this make me wonder if people actually buy ID's newest shooters and go complain on ID's boards because they get killed all the time and all they want to do is 'collect items'.

Xoch

[meriweather]

Drawing parallels with the use of sarcasm really doesn't say much for you dude.

People that buy iD's latest shooter KNOW that they are entering an every man for himself deathmatch arena. Let me use a similar analogy - the current state of affairs is like a football referee deciding 10 minutes into a championship game that the offside rule is daft and therefore it's scrapped for the remainder of the match. Yes we knew that certain territories would have thier suppression change but hey, there was me thinking we'd be:

a) Informed of these changes beforehand so we could either raise objections or get the hell outta Dodge &

b) Given some reason for the changes that related to the ongoing storyline.

How does changing a mid-level hunting ground that people have been quite happy with since launch relate to the storyline? What justification for the change was given beyond the high-lvl gank-gimps whining that they had hardly anywhere to practise their happy griefing???

I bought AO because of what I saw at ECTS afew years ago when I went there. FYI, AO is NOT a Playerkiller driven game (although it is in danger of becoming so), how can you say that the PvP conflict is driving this game? Everyone and his senile grandfather know that PvP means jacksh*t in this game atm because there is no lasting reason for killing the opposite faction beyond short term gratification and the odd loot or pinky.

You cannot capture and hold territory (yet), you cannot influence the pathetic storyline. The only thing you can do is collect an empty title that says nothing about you beyond that you picked the right class or know the right way to twink or, for that matter, the right places to go to get risk-free easy kills against other players that have no hope of fighting back. That's what this discussion is about remember?

The whole Omni V Clan thing is just a very flimsy backdrop for what is in actuality a very loose and weak plot which this game has been draped around. Most people don't give a flying **** about "The Conflict" and just want to level their char, or get that uber item or use that ql200 weapon, and for every one of you that starts drooling and goes looking for their last issue of "Guns & Ammo" everytime someone mentions a PvP battle to them, there's 50 others that really, honestly couldn't care less.


I believe I told you before, go and pay your dues in the game and experience the reality of this issue for yourself before coming here with your grand hypothesis that means jack because you simply don't know what you are talking about yet.

[Tetra]

Originally posted by Xoch
*sigh*

Well, this is probably going to get one of the following responses again:

- I'm too low level to know
- I have nothing new to say
- My kind ruined AC (that one really got me lol)

You are, You don't, They did.

But ok, Tetra:

Would you care to tell me exactly what I did not understand in the discussion? Is there anything relevant to this discussion that I cannot have knowledge of because I'm low level? Really, before you make that assumption please make sure that you know what you are talking about. I don know that there currently is a lack of high level outdoor hunting areas. For the record, where did I call anyone stupid, I know I called you an idiot but that was because you told me to ....

Yes, the fact that my 30's were all of one group that lasted all of one night....

I found the group cause i bumped into someone in omni-1 who asked if i wanted to group.

I was able to go from that point up till borgs were nerfed just going to proper camps when i wanted to find a group that i could level with and have a reasonable chance of finding one. The way things are now however I'm stuck with missions, or hoping that there enough people I know online (I work nights... not always an easy task on RK2) to go do something else...

You say that this was the last 75% high level hunting ground but as I understood it from other posts, this was basically a Clan hunting ground with clan shops and safe points nearby. I must admit that I don't have first hand knowledge of that so I could be wrong. If this indeed had advantages for clan, I think it is only fair to take it away.

There is a neutral outpost with a superior shop, save terminal, mission terminal, and reclaim terminal about 1-4 minutes flight due NE of borg camp, at nearly all points that i went there on RK2 omni's outnumbered clanners there. I think maybe once i saw three groups there... two of us went to go hunt plants in DAV cause it's better exp.

You end the discussion about the popularity of pvp in games like this in one sentence. As a matter of fact a lot of pvp minded people came to AO because of the pvp conflict. That is exactly what makes me think that there are more pvppro minded people in this game than in any other online game at the moment.

think I was too quick to dismiss your claim that perhaps hardcore pro PvP players outnumber the regular players who just want to play the game and could care less about killing another player?

UO
Trammel... Felucca...
where did all the people go again?... oh yea that's right... the one where they could walk outside town and not worry about getting killed all the time "cause they should know better".

AC
Solclaim, Wintersebb, Leafcull, Harvestgain, Morningthaw, Frostfell, Thistledown, Darktide

hmm... 7 NPK servers, 1 PK server

EQ
Drinal, Ayonae Ro, Bertoxxulous, Brell Serilis, Bristlebane, Cazic-Thule, Druzzil Ro, E'ci, Erollsi Mar, Fennin Ro, Innoruuk, Karana, Layns T'Vyl, Luclin, Mithaniel Marr, Morell-Thule, Povar, Prexus, Quellious, Rallos Zek, Rodcet Nife, Saryn, Solusek Ro, Tallon Zek, Tarrew Marr, Terris-Thule, The Nameless, The rathe, The Seventh Hammer, The Tribunal, Tholuxe Paells, Torvonnilous, Tunare, Vallon Zek, Vazaelle, Veeshan, Xegony, Xev, Zebuxoruk

Notice the number of servers there?... Tallon Zek, Vallon Zek, and Rallos Zek are PK I think there might be one more too... see a trend yet?... it exists in every game ever made

Remember the poll where a mere 3-4% of the AO players voted that PvP was important?... seems that AO holds true with everything that came before it when it comes to ratio of annoying griefers vrs "carebears" if you want to challenge that then you are going to have to bring a pretty big load of facts to the table before people even waste time listening to you.

Another thing, I don't support griefers, I'm not defending griefers, thats what you make of it. I'm all for solving problems with griefers with a group. But I said that before and your response is that it's boring as hell. Please explain me how defending Mort is more boring than killing the same monster over and over again in Mort when it was 75% to gain xp.

The reason people grief kill borg/ace camp is because it's possible to do so easily. By supporting mort and with it borg camp being changed to 25% you are supporting griefers. You don't see people spend 10+ minutes flying out to DAV then another 10-20+ minutes looking for someone that might be there that they could maybe grief because it's not worth the effort. The number of high level hunting grounds that offer viable advancement at a reasonable risk/reward is almost nonexistant. Enigma forest would be almost reasonable at some levels... except EVERY SINGLE MOB THERE ASSISTS and there are gobs and gobs of them.

I'm honored but I rather choose my own friends.

You and Kopo both don't like PvP, thats your right. At the same time a lot of players who bought the game because of the player driven conflict and PvP love this game because of it. Threads like this make me wonder if people actually buy ID's newest shooters and go complain on ID's boards because they get killed all the time and all they want to do is 'collect items'.

Xoch

There was a reason quotes were around "friend"... and yes "a lot of playersbought the game because of PvP" that number is 3.8%... that's the percent that said that PvP was the most important part of AO... now even if we give the poll a 100% margin of error and round up that still sets your argument back at 8% or less of the population play for PvP. When i bought this game it said PvP was optional... nowhere did it say expect to have your hunting grounds given to grief campers so that tiny minority can have something to do.

[meriweather]

Well said Tetra.

For a further discourse by myself on this issue, go the Next patch forum where I also ask the question:

"The current groups of high level Omni griefers camping Mort for griefing purposes are the same players that used that hunting area themselves (more than likely) at some stage between levels 75-110/20. They did so without having to worry about groups of clan gankers griefing them of their xp they did it in peace and at no risk above and beyond what they'd expect from adds or bad pulls etc, WHY ARE WE BEING DENIED THE SAME PRIVILEGE?."

Same people that are now 150+ probably went to Medusas and suchlike and took advantage of that area to help level their characters to the Godly twinked-for-PvP status that they have now and are using to easy kill lowbie clanners in Mort. We have also had that playfiled nerfed so we can't use it. Our options to level our own characters in the same relative safety that they enjoyed are no longer there, we don't have the same privileges as they enjoyed when they where at a similar stage in their characters development.

We are being penalised by FC for not levelling our characters fast enough by not either having the time to play as much as these llamas did, or having had to re-roll due to their own profession and equipment nerfs. In the meantime FC provides even more incentive for grief killing of players much lower in level with the proposed 13.8 patch notes. Where does it stop?

[________________Miir]

As for you Miir (who happens also to be playing the most uber class in AO atm)

I haven't leveled my meta in close to 2 months.
Certainly Traders aren't the most uber profession in AO.

I quit my meta because snoring through 80% missions got awfully boring.


I believe EVERY player should have some say in what goes on, we paid for the game and we support the continued running of it via our subscriptions

Your monthly fee does not give you the power to dictate how Funcom runs anarchy online. If you believe it does, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and frustration.

Funcom has been goon in that they listen to player concerns but it's not prudent for them to give into every single player's demands.

[____________Greystar]

Originally posted by Miir
...

You still failed to tell us where your "plenty" spots are where people level 80-110 should have a viable opportunity to level outside.

I am waiting, my trader soon hits level 80 and I would like to visit one of your "plenty" spots, because I don't know any.

[______________Nianna]

Originally posted by Miir
Your monthly fee does not give you the power to dictate how Funcom runs anarchy online. If you believe it does, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and frustration.

It doesn't give us a right to dictate anything, but it certainly gives us a right to have our input heard and if Funcom ignores that input too much they may find themselves with no more $12.95s to run a game with. A game only exists so long as it is fun to the players.

I'm in complete agreement with the other people who denounce the changes in the political status of many of the high level zones. The change was not only for borgs in Mort, but for most of the Mort zone, much of the eastern foul plains zone, and a good portion of the southern foul hills zone. The high level game has experienced a narrowing of our viable fighting options over a long period of time now and this is just the latest round. We ask for high level content and just get less places to fight.

Fighting in a 25% zone is not an option on a crowded server with limited numbers of viable xp spawns and a considerable "ganker" population. Basically that means the majority of us high level players go to the City of Home and bore ourselves to death doing the same missions over and over while we hope that the next patch will have some new hunting zones for us, but understanding the sad reality of the matter is that our options are becoming more and more limited over time.

Its only a matter of time before they decide that the highest level monster in a mission should be about level 150 so as to force us to use those 25% zones if we want to gain any sort of reasonable xp so we have no choice but to get ganked repeatedly. Frankly even without getting PKed while trying to gain xp the going is so slow I can barely even stand to fight anymore and I don't relish the idea of going even slower.

Nianna - Trader 134 RK2

[____________Valerian]

Oh I remember Funcom (pre-release) stating stuff like:
we will prevent grief playing, no insta-kills, PvP is an option and only possible in remote areas, PvP can be avoided, soloing is always possible etc...

Funcoms game today is a paradise for griefers. Mid to highlevel gamers are forced to go into those zones to advance. PvP is extremely unbalanced with the past-75-you're-roadkill-rule, heavy overequipping, twinking etc.
And now Funcom is going one step further with the next patch to give PvP d00dz even more griefing fun. Funcom does apparently not know what they do. Their changes and complete and utter lack of any camping or PvP etiquette rules in the game shows that Funcom has no idea what they are doing!
As a result "everything goes" in game and no behaviour is too low that there isnt another player doing something even worse.
You are anonymous in these games and it takes some character I guess to NOT take advantage of others if you can do so unpunished. Thats why AO could make you become misanthropic and bitter in no time. Me being in an nice guild prevents me from quitting at this stage actually.
Funcom, dont get on the bad side of the majority of the players who dont want grief playing. Unfair game systems will turn away peeps. Go ask OSI! The dimwits griefing are not paying for this game! We do! The d00dz will not pay 25$/month to maintain this game if we leave to try out the next MMORPG because there is no hope for this one.
You claim to have played the competitors, so why is everything open game here? Why does the PvP system reward cowardly and unfair behaviour to the max? Why are there no rules of behaviour for camping and PvP that are enforced by customer service?
Look into this instead of posting "hey we got 2(!) good reviews in the press!" on the site or offering ppl free playing time to join or come back!
You are not able to hold these ppl when they experience the fact that any d00d with too much zeds in his name can do whatever pleases him and when you actually petition and wait for literally hours (2 minimum!!) all you get is some volunteer telling you "Sorry hey! there is nothing I can do about it".

The number of MMORPGs is growing and this one isnt going to survive on nice graphics alone FUNCOM! I know I will be checking out others coming out and god help you if they got a nice set of rules and customer service to keep the "morally and ethically handicapped" players in check!

Val (d00dz dont roleplay)

[Johnfredone]

Ok so you want new hunting grounds. Have you even looked.

1) Enigmas in PM
2) Borgs in MW
3) Muties and Biles in SFP
4) Biles in TLR
5) Borgs in PW

There are my suggestions for hunting grounds. And if you say that they dont give as much XP as the borgs in Mort then you should be glad they just didnt do to the borgs as they did to the Medusas. I bet the only reason they did 25% to Mort is cause people were leveling way to fast hell I got from 70-100 in no time there. They just put a little level-stopper in to get people from leveling to fast. getting 10% of level per kill probably isnt how FC intended it. But hey what do I know. I'll post coords later on where to find them all. Dont have time now.

[________________Miir]

NovemberSix, I think they are looking for 'risk-free' uber XP spots like Medusas or the lowbie cyborg gangbangs that used to happen at Mort factory.

A lot of people are sheep.
They follow the crowds.
If a spot isn't crowded, they figure it isn't worth hunting.


I know of many higher level XP spots but I don't want them to become overcrowded. The spawn rate isn't high enough to maintain 3+ groups.



bet the only reason they did 25% to Mort is cause people were leveling way to fast hell I got from 70-100 in no time there

I got 8 levels in one day at borgs in Mort (85-93).
I never went back after that.



we will prevent grief playing, no insta-kills, PvP is an option and only possible in remote areas, PvP can be avoided, soloing is always possible etc...


All of those statements are still true.
I have several characters over level 75.
I have never been an unwilling participant in PvP.

[___________Atrocious]

Originally posted by Xoch

No, the FACT is that in this game you are able to do something about it. As I said before, you can get a group together and make things right. This is by far better as things are in AC or UO for example, people can grief you all day and all you can do is grind your teeth.

Can I have some of what you are smoking? Cuz since you make a stamement like this it must really be a trip....

You cannot do anything more about griefers in AO than UO. You cannot get a group together and do anything about it.

Yesterday my guild had a RP event internally. One of our guys was supposed to be taken hostage, etc. To make it hard and interesting for all lvls we found a desolate place in Mort for him to sit in. It's the only place I know of where all lvls would actually be able to get xp while killing something. So the hostage was lvl 80 and just sitting there. A lvl 168 omni decided to kill him, my fried tried to tell him that he was holding a RP event for our guild and please don't kill me as it would mess up 3 hrs of in game RPing by the rest of the guild. Did he care no....

Anyway, some of us got pissed and decided to form a lvl 76-116 group and go out and try to take him(the lvl 168) or any omnis out there ganking. 1hr later, criss crossing Mort no Omnis in sight.

Most of these people run when they cannot win. They are a bunch of cowards. As soon as they see a sizeable force they run away. Only to come back when the force has left.

You cannot do anything about being ganked by high lvls. Since they can run to a different zone, and that's it.

There is no "I'll get my posse together and ride in to get justice" in any MMORPG. Why? Because people can flee and log out. Then unless(i've only read about this on UO boards) you decide to camp outside a guys house until he logs back in there is nothing you can do. There will never in any MMORPG be any justice, why? It damn hard to code in. Why do you think we need lawyers in RL? Because laws(wheter constructed for a game or real) can be interpreted differently, etc.

[______________Nianna]

Originally posted by NovemberSix
Ok so you want new hunting grounds. Have you even looked.

1) Enigmas in PM
2) Borgs in MW
3) Muties and Biles in SFP
4) Biles in TLR
5) Borgs in PW

Seems pretty clear to me that you haven't actually tried to xp in some of these spots.

1) Spawn at an extremely slow rate so an xp group could not fight there. Even if you did you are only talking 6-10k xp per kill. Hardly a replacement for borgs.
2) No idea. Never seen borgs in MW, but I dont doubt that there may be some there somewhere. Might be a good spot.
3) Mutants are not worth good xp at levels 90+. Who told you that? Don't know which biles you are referring to in SFP, maybe I missed them but in general bileswarms hit extremely hard and fast for their level so they have a poor risk vs reward ratio. Probably are too dangerous for a common xp group and not likely to be decent xp unless they are bileswarm collosuses.
4) See number 3.
5) Too far from a save terminal since deaths will happen frequently. The borgs in Mort were also very dangerous, but were also close to a save point which is what made them good to kill.

[Johnfredone]

Well as far as the last one this is where risk vs reward comes in and also the reason 25% was probably place onto Mort. There was no risk to borgs in Mort unless you were in a team of low levelers (70-80). Its been said by funcom (no quote but I can get one from a post) that there must be some risk vs reward when leveling. If someone can come along and get 8 levels there there funcom will raise the risk. The same goes for borgs in PW. Id love to hunt out there is I could find people with the "balls" to go out and hunt with me. Even if there is no save terminal just grab an engy in the team and your set problem solved. Hell Id hunt in EFP just roaming around if there were people with the guts to do it but no one wants to live up to the risk of it all. Oh well If you want to get up the courage to hunt out in PW/EFP give Newvena a tell. Id love to go out and sweat for xp.

[Arinia]

Originally posted by NovemberSix
I'll post coords later on where to find them all. Dont have time now.

Please don't, I really don't want people camping my favorite hunting spots :P

He is right, though, there are TONS of viable hunting spots.

My favorite quote is:

A lot of people are sheep.
They follow the crowds.
If a spot isn't crowded, they figure it isn't worth hunting.

isn't worth hunting?

au contraire.

He's 100% right. People are sheep. This is a REALLY REALLY big planet, bigger than I ever thought. Get in your plane and fly around

[____________Valerian]

I take risk to get my xp anytime! Risk being killed by hostile mobs that is. The risk to be killed by PKs is totally different and pure grief playing (scanned PKs killing others without risk). Forcing PvP on MMORPG players who just want to play the game their way is simply a bad business decision on FUNCOMs side. It has absolutely nothing to do with roleplaying and gets ppl frustrated who want to enjoy the game and not deal with schoolbully stuff.
Right now FUNCOM seems to think that PvP is a normal game element that can be used to control and influence things in game. They dont get it that ppl wont take such things when there are alternatives.
I can see Verant laughing at what FUNCOM is doing here
The game is based on xp, stats and items. PvP is an add-on thats just an annoyance to some cause there is no real purpose for it in that environment and certainly no roleplaying. On top of that the fact that you can scan and only unscanned peeps real risk anything offers plenty of room for grief in AO. Verant understood that PvP and carebears dont mix. Letting one side enjoy ruining the game for the other side makes for muchos unhappy customers.

Perhaps they have to learn the hard way tho. Wont be too long now.

Val (d00dz dont roleplay)

[Nikki.]

I could care less either way. Hell let it all be 0%.

The fact of the matter is PvP is broken though. Not to mention Funcom is going about PvP in the wrong way.

You don't just turn on the gas and let whatever happens happen. You piss off the 90% of the people that will never PvP more than a handful of times. This is called the casual gamer. This is the player that keeps this game running. The player that logs on for an hour a night. The one that pays the bills while you eat up all the bandwidth.

You can't just laugh at them and tell them to quit if they don't like it, because they make or break a game!

My idea of better PvP situations would be to put bases all over the world. These bases would give tokens and experience to the people guarding them every hour. Some would give more than others. Making some more popular and more fighting going on. Others might draw less and you end up getting more in the end.

This is just one way to deal with PvP without pissing off unsuspecting EXPers.

Mort and Aces are NOT a better way to get EXP. It's just something different than stupid missions all the damn time. So your argument of Reward Vs. Risk is flawed. Their is no reward but tons of risk. I could understand if Mort creatures gave 4 times the amount of experience, but as it stands now there is nothing but griefers and people being griefed. Not PvPers and Exp whores like you suggest.

Anyways PvP should be rethought and a better system put into place.

[Mangoslurpy]

My idea of better PvP situations would be to put bases all over the world. These bases would give tokens and experience to the people guarding them every hour. Some would give more than others. Making some more popular and more fighting going on. Others might draw less and you end up getting more in the end.

great idea

[________________Xoch]

After doing some more research on this topic and re-reading this thread again I've come to the conclusion that I've been making an ass out of myself.

Oh well, that was easier than I thought it would be.

[Nikki.]

Xoch

No youre not an ass. You just havent been looking at the game in the right way. You see that the story is based upon a "Conflict" between Omni-Tek and Clans and expect it to be 0% gas everywhere. That just isn't the case in many wars. If that was true we would have dropped 30 or so Nucluer Bombs on Iraq and Afgahnistan. There is always rules of engagement we try to adhere to because in the end we still have to medn those fences back once the conflict is over.

Next you totally miss the fact that outside of the storyline you have to accomedate everyone needs in the best way possible. Sure you can base a game on PvP, but find a way to incorporate the PvP in a Way that makes it so it is people that Actively wants to participate. This adds the most fun for everyone and in the end means more in the game since the war is ABOUT the conflict and not ganking noobs for Titles.