All The Necessary Changes Needed To Balance The Majority Of PvP

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flaminbull

In all seriousness, you have already proven that you know nothing,nada,whatever about bureaucrat pvp.. But that is not my point - you can't make an argument and not back it up with RELEVANT data,input - I could quote every post of yours in this thread and tear it apart, but what for? I guess there is enough capable people reading around who has not attached his head in his backside.

Cheers.

---

"I won't show you how you're wrong, where you're wrong, or explain anything, but I'm just going to get out of here and say you're stupid and don't know what you're talking about, goodbye.".

What, do you want me to make a spreadsheet with a regular bureaucrats' stats placed down, for everyone to see? The "proven, you don't know what you're talking about" is said from most bureaucrats who cry off one outlier number, and exclaim that the apocalypse is coming afterwards. Please, amuse me with your bureaucrat knowledge. Show me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Notnotnotnod

...

---

Yes, make a spreadsheet, so every1 could have a good laugh about the nonsense you post.

Anyway I just wanted to tell you to stop till you embarass yourself.

Cheers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flaminbull

Yes, make a spreadsheet, so every1 could have a good laugh about the nonsense you post.

Anyway I just wanted to tell you to stop till you embarass yourself.

Cheers.

---

There is no "embarrasing" anywhere. It's more amusing to me some of these responses, people claiming they won't be able to press their specials while trying to drain, that everything will be too complicated for them. Exactly what I expected, when Marinesold placed his list of changes here, mostly, because these are the types of people we encounter every day, doctors who get alphad by enforcers, and people that made bureaucrats so they could get some PvP notice, which didn't happen. Traders who happen to be confused as to why a doctor is healing through their drains, and soldiers who are oblivious to defense setups. Martial artists who don't know how to hold their target down, and others who could be mistaken for people that made their character yesterday. Who don't see how what they do effects everyone around them, and are completely incapable of seeing everyone else's effects and the happenings of everything around them.

The saying of "You are totally out of this world on this subject! You know nothing!" when it came to one misnumber, and mistake which ends up equaling to slight irrelevance, show everyone's incapabilty in actually challenging me on this. Given, noone has really bothered to counter the claim that bureaucrats have the add all defense, attack rating, and such that they do have, which regardless equaled to a higher amount later on, with more sight into it.

How about this, show me your bureaucrat, level, perk setup, and tell much how many stats he has of everything. There is no "rediculous numbers" there, those are taken from a specific bureaucrat on RK2, fully set up. He plays his bureaucrat very well, and still remarks about how he believes there should be changes. He's a level headed person, who knows what he's talking about, and is fairly competant, unlike most of the people that have been trying to put their thoughts on the information here, which makes me believe they are the type of PvPers that fumble over their keyboards while trying to run and special people, or root and manage their distance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shareida

It is quite entertaining to see, that NONE of your proposed changes would even remotely influence any of YOUR listed characters negatively. Keep it up :)

---

Hotswaps don't effect soldiers. Shades being able to backstab him more wouldn't effect him. Kiting doesn't effect soldiers or agents. Roots, snares, and debuffs won't effect his agent. He has no negative statements about enforcers. These states are, true, or false?

You really seem to know this. It may have been better for you not to say anything at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Notnotnotnod

...

---

First off, I am not the one claiming anything, so I don't need to prove anything - the one who should bring evidence to his posts is you, sir.

Secondly leave this discussion alone, if you want to ask me any questions regarding ME, use pm's.

Cheers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Notnotnotnod

...

---

Dude, if this were a forum discussing evolution, you'd be the guy shouting humans and dinosaurs coexisted. You're the reason wikipedia sucks. For as long as I live, I'll never understand people like you. You know nothing about bureaucrats. Everyone keeps telling you this. Yet for some reason, you still think that, without doing an ounce of research, you still know better than everyone else. ....Why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shareida

It is quite entertaining to see, that NONE of your proposed changes would even remotely influence any of YOUR listed characters negatively. Keep it up :)

---

Actually, the ranged changes posted under Ranged Vs melee affect all of my characters. So do root/snare changes.

What other changes are there besides the debuffs that really negatively affect anyone? I have not even touched on profession specifics yet. Almost all of that are just related to mechanics.. melee professions recieve quite a bit of boosting in their respective changes and ranged even loses out some.

What are you upset about? The line where i say Agents followed by soldiers should have the best aimedshot capability? Does it not make sense that the Clearly best Aimed Shot profession has the best AS, and the ranged weapon master has the second best?

Im confused.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crattey

You know nothing about bureaucrats. Everyone keeps telling you this. Yet for some reason, you still think that, without doing an ounce of research, you still know better than everyone else. ....Why?

---

Do you think that I honestly haven't done any research on this? That I don't look at bureaucrats every day, talk to them, get information from them, and look into how they work to know them through enough to where I could confidently tell people that I do know their stats and strong points? I got most of those numbers directly from a 220 bureaucrat. How you don't know your bureaucrat, or how unwilling you are to show them, is honestly surprising.

Most bureaucrats on RK2, that are active, made their bureaucrats because of their recent changes. From the addition of their stuns (I remember watching the beast chainstunned), to knowing several people that put together bureawucrats no less than a month ago, for the entire reason that they are rediculous now, shows how blatant it is, that they could use changes.

Bureaucrats even make PvM honestly, too easy. To top it off.

I know the people that are telling me this "Keep us the same, you're wrong" talk. They are not people I take advice from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crattey

Dude, if this were a forum discussing evolution, you'd be the guy shouting humans and dinosaurs coexisted. You're the reason wikipedia sucks. For as long as I live, I'll never understand people like you. You know nothing about bureaucrats. Everyone keeps telling you this. Yet for some reason, you still think that, without doing an ounce of research, you still know better than everyone else. ....Why?

---

Touche.

Actually he is wrong on several other fronts then bureaucrats, but discussing without the other side atleast doing some research is uhm, pointless?

Cheers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Notnotnotnod

Do you think that I honestly haven't done any research on this?

---

Yes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Notnotnotnod

Which isn't on any of your red tape. One of them is even 80% nano resist. You have pistol perks, which with over 3000 attack rating, end at 80% checks. They take a Carlos Pinetti, with 4400 attack rating, and deals chemical damage for you to use. There's an interrupt in your lost eden nanos with a recharge of about 1s, included with the 4 red tape and malaise nanos. They've taken that, and added two add all defense auras equaling up to 310 add all defense, to couple with your 2600 add all defense and evades [Even more?] you're already able to achieve. Then, they've taken a weapon with a capable aimed shot cap, and placed it in a way that bureaucrats are able to place it on.

They've then made an area fear, area snares, area roots, and a team 500 add all defense, 410 nano resist perk for you to use.

That's your profession. You don't seem to have much knowledge, in the case of PvP, with it.

---

Too bad all of these things don't keep my Crat alive very long. I am a very easy kill. My best skill in PvP is running away, and then I get easily rooted with a simple root graft that any profession can carry. I can't kill any profession solo. At least I had a small chance of surviving, and maybe even killing someone when Crats had stun procs. Crats are easier to kill than Docs. At least Docs can heal themselves. Crats have zero heals.

I just logged in a 220 bureaucrat and debuffed a mob. If we pretended the timers on the debuffs were 45 seconds, i had about 35 seconds to spam rule of one. I used it 9 times before i had to re-debuff a mob if we pretended they only lasted 45 seconds.

Rule of One
NaCost: 475NCU cost: 55
Duration: 00:00:10
Range: 25m
Damage: 1375-3211
Speed:
Attack 6.30s
Recharge 3.90s


Traders would have even less of an issue since they do not need to constantly spam things on their target. They would use self heals maybe. But either way.

I'll admit 30 seconds may have been slightly too short, but 45 seconds is sufficient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spandelero

Too bad all of these things don't keep my Crat alive very long. I am a very easy kill. My best skill in PvP is running away, and then I get easily rooted with a simple root graft that any profession can carry. I can't kill any profession solo. At least I had a small chance of surviving, and maybe even killing someone when Crats had stun procs. Crats are easier to kill than Docs. At least Docs can heal themselves. Crats have zero heals.

---

Spande, you are on Rk2. Same as me.

/tell techprince1 How do i pvp as crat?

i'm soz to say it, marine, but this post is useless as it is and by now.

most of the changes you requested in OP are about to be implemented in rebalance. & all others ain't welcomed at all imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

I just logged in a 220 bureaucrat and debuffed a mob. If we pretended the timers on the debuffs were 45 seconds, i had about 35 seconds to spam rule of one. I used it 9 times before i had to re-debuff a mob if we pretended they only lasted 45 seconds.

Rule of One
NaCost: 475NCU cost: 55
Duration: 00:00:10
Range: 25m
Damage: 1375-3211
Speed:
Attack 6.30s
Recharge 3.90s


Traders would have even less of an issue since they do not need to constantly spam things on their target. They would use self heals maybe. But either way.

I'll admit 30 seconds may have been slightly too short, but 45 seconds is sufficient.



Spande, you are on Rk2. Same as me.

/tell techprince1 How do i pvp as crat?

---

Did I forget to mention that my Crat was fun to play when we had Stun Procs. Now my Crat sux big time. I don't even like playing it anymore. I am only good for some crowd control as a team. If my roots, snares, fears, even hit.

btw, techprince1 can tell my how to make my crat not suck?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spandelero

Did I forget to mention that my Crat was fun to play when we had Stun Procs.

---

Come on spande. This says everything.

Stun procs? that was more OP then 1hb enforcers.

edit : and techprince can teach you how to pvp on a crat. Or yikinomi. Send one of em a tell.

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=163697

Standard bureaucrat setup, without auras counted in. Let me, step by step, count these numbers up for you.

No research hud, no cut red tape.

For note, these are your auras.
commanding presence.

260 offense
100 defense.

improved heroic measures.

130 offense
430 defense

More specific points,

Defense
These are from items.
Offense modifier 290
Defense modifier 1310

Auras, that's 1840 defense including auras, no perks up.

Duck explosives 559
Dodge ranged 584
Evade close 569
Nano resist 1136

Add that onto your defense rating.

This is the defense, and evades, you have purely from your gear. This is not included with the base. 1169 dodge, duck, close base.

Note these,
Strength 148
Agility 260
Stamina 265
Intelligence 239
Sense 313
Psychic 25

Now add in your 1169 base.

3576 add all defense, and evades (Specifically from evade close quarters). Not including additions from other stats.

Nano Resist
2307 total nano resist. 1171 base. Rest from items.


Now for attack rating
926 included pistol.
1170 base pistol.
390 offense from auras
290 offense from items.

This is 2776 attack rating.

There should be nothing more to say on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Notnotnotnod

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=163697

Standard bureaucrat setup, without auras counted in. Let me, step by step, count these numbers up for you.

No research hud, no cut red tape.

For note, these are your auras.
commanding presence.

260 offense
100 defense.

improved heroic measures.

I was at Tara yesterday. One guy killed me in 2 seconds. I was running, and he was chasing me. He hit me while he was running. I was dead in 2 seconds...

130 offense
430 defense

More specific points,

Defense
These are from items.
Offense modifier 290
Defense modifier 1310

Auras, that's 1840 defense including auras, no perks up.

Duck explosives 559
Dodge ranged 584
Evade close 569
Nano resist 1136

Add that onto your defense rating.

This is the defense, and evades, you have purely from your gear. This is not included with the base. 1169 dodge, duck, close base.

Note these,
Strength 148
Agility 260
Stamina 265
Intelligence 239
Sense 313
Psychic 25

Now add in your 1169 base.

3576 add all defense, and evades (Specifically from evade close quarters). Not including additions from other stats.

Nano Resist
2307 total nano resist. 1171 base. Rest from items.


Now for attack rating
926 included pistol.
1170 base pistol.
390 offense from auras
290 offense from items.

This is 2776 attack rating.

There should be nothing more to say on this.

---

This is good?

When does it start helping me?

I was at Tara yesterday. I was killed in 2 seconds by one guy. I was running from him. He was chasing me. He killed me while he was running in 2 seconds. He didn't even have to stop to attack me. I am guessing he had all of his attacks scripted. When I looked back at what he killed me with in chat. I was hit with about 10 damages...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

Come on spande. This says everything.

Stun procs? that was more OP then 1hb enforcers.

edit : and techprince can teach you how to pvp on a crat. Or yikinomi. Send one of em a tell.

---

So you are saying we were OP with stun procs? So they took crats from being OP, to being useless easy targets for death?... Crats main purpose in PvP is to die first.

I am guessing that there is not one profession that has any fear of any kind for Crats. They all know that Crats are very easy to kill, and they can stand there all day and a Crat will not kill them.

If I get this right, Marineagent mentions that he and many other players fear that the changes FC are planning will be "far more game breaking than just changing some things about what we currently have", so he's putting together this complete other version for the rebalancing. His point at root, is that you could get things reasonably balanced right now by making fewer changes that don't change the game so deeply.

I think he's missed the point of the rebalancing effort that FC is going through right now. It's not just a question of trying to fix some existing issues in order to get things reasonably well balanced for now. We've had a good 8 years of going through iterations of that already. FC have over those many years altered bits here and bits there in an effort to address some of the core issues of balance - in particular balancing PvP.

But many of those issues have either remained issues throughout or have become 'better enough' for a period and then raised their heads again. Often enough, changes made to cover an issue at one point in time have then themselves become issues a little further down the road. Other issues are so deeply embedded in the game, that you need to deeply change the mechanics of the game to get at them, something previous dev teams have been unwilling to do. Other issues require such broad change to so many elements, that FC have ruled them out in the past as a result.

There's also another issue with short-term balancing in the present environment. There's a tendency for those solutions to end up spoiling the fun and diversity of gameplay for professions. There are many, many examples of implementations that have solved specific issues for professions but ended up dumbing down the gameplay or reducing the diversity of character builds drastically as a result. Similarly, there are a goodly few examples of core skill-sets and abilities for professions getting side-lined because of the way balancing solutions had to be developed in the past.

What the present Dev Team has realised, is that if they're ever to really get in control of balance - not just now but also in the future - they need to make much broader, deeper changes now, so that the overall environment can more easily and flexibly respond to change and stay balanced. They also need that control, to be able to improve the diversity of game-play and allow professions to refocus back to their core templates again.

They've committed to addressing some of the deepest issues that fundamentally skew the game balance. They're coding in tools like local cool-downs in order to be able to rebalance not just nanos that cause existing issues, but in order to have the tools to prevent future issues from developing. They're looking at the whole picture, recognising that many things are so interdependent that just messing with one part of it won't really address the underlying issues.

So, for example, the issue with AS isn't really that it can land big hits undefended. The underlying issue is really, that the only real way to kill well in PvP is to develop an alpha of lots of damage over a short time. That's also because of other specials and perk specials that build together to form these alphas - so you really need to look at all specials and the way they work and the effects of hot-swapping. But the underlying issues go further than that.

Particularly support professions that tend to have more 'damage over time' oriented toolsets, will always struggle in an environment where Alpha-style damage is the priority... but since their AR is usually pretty crap, then the existence of an undefendable special they can use tends to perpetuate its misuse - but also pushes them away from their core toolset. The specials themselves aren't so much the problem as the fact that support profs are forced down a route that doesn't fit their own toolset. So even if you give them much reduced AS multipliers tomorrow, those professions would still need to build the best alpha they could... and they'd still use AS but also have to add the next best specials, still ignoring their damage over time oriented tools.

So, if you're really going to fix the underlying problems, you need to address that basic problem of normal hits and DoT tools being sidelined... but in order to do that, you need to alter the damage ratios between specials and normal hits, you need to reduce healing values and big heals in particular in order to flatten the counter damage without having to do things like put in blockers, you need to directly address the balance between evades and AR, because that will skew things badly too.... and you perhaps need to find ways to speed up casting so that you can improve damage delivery without resorting to things like triples and maybe address reflect caps etc etc etc.

Whether or not you agree with all of the above... the basic premise is there. AS really isn't the issue, it's the symptom. There are lots of underlying elements of games mechanics and design direction that form the 'real causes' of the situation that makes AS such a difficult issue to address. As you go down the layers of cause and effect you find that some really basic game elements are what builds to create the situation.

What FC are trying to do is to get at some of those root causes andd really get to grips with balance in AO again. They don't want to fix enough symptoms right now to give a short period of reasonably OK balance... they want to try to address the deeper problems and put in place tools that give them more control over the different elements, so that they can balance the game well now and in the future.

I'll be interested to see how MarineAgent's list turns out. I think it'll end up being the sort of list that migh achieve a halfway reasonable balance situation for now... but I think it'll be very incomplete and will probably not address many of the underlying problems and will not give that control that will help to keep balance for the future.

X

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spandelero

I am guessing that there is not one profession that has any fear of any kind for Crats.

---

Shades?