Why have a PvP-oriented pack when PvP itself is utterly broken?

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Originally posted by Xira


PVP sucks in AO because

1) You need to be uber high level. Level 190+ soon to be 195+ for most classes. 2000+ hours of pure exping.

2) You need to have uber items. Items that take 200 hours of camping to get. If you don't have the items, you get reamed by someone who does.

3) You must have the right profession. If you are ...say...a NT, you suck, end of story.

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LOL. You may have a point about #1 and #2, but ummm... #3 is where your Rapid Palsy hit yer own NCU. An NT does not suck at PvP...it depends on how the NT is played.

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Originally posted by Bionitrous
It's all about tactics, organization, innovation, teamwork.

1 on 1 PvP should never had been anything more than a fun diversion. It most _certainly_ should never have been rewarded with a title. Nothing has hurt this game more than the emphasis placed on solo PvP because of them damn titles.

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Bumping the **** outta that....!

Maybe, just maybe...they plan on reworking the PvP system along with the release of the Booster Pack? Considering that this pack is almost exclusively directed towards team PvP I wouldn't be at all surprised to see team PvP rules come into the game.

Also, of course you don't want balance in a team situation. Unfortunately, like Bionitrous said, the players screwed that one up royally. I find it terribly funny that a year ago all people were saying on the PvP forum was "cap specials! half damage in PvP!" and now it's "uncap specials! full damage in PvP!"

Anyway, once this pack goes live, many more people will PvP on a regular basis. Hopefully that means more broad, beneficial fixes to the system which are supported and understood by most of the players.

There will always be strong and weak classes. However, what may seem obvious now will be obsolete in three months. For example, for the first few weeks, the tactic may be "kill the traders first" but then someone will come up with a really good way to protect their traders or win without traders, and then tactics will change. Anyone who has ever played a PvP tactical game knows this. Static playfields, static abilities, ever-dynamic tactics. It's why AI opponents are only fun for a while, yet people still play Team Fortress 7 years after it came out.

I have two topics that i seen discuss here that i must coment.

1- Team PvP is not viable because the game cannot support the traffic this generate and the server lags and crashes most of the times, so the the only method to PvP is with only a few players, which is more like solo pvp then team pvp.

2- The people who do not buy the Booster Pack will be at a permanent disadvantage to those who do and own those personal towers and get guild benefits(buffs) from their towers.

Bottom line, the booster pack will un-balance PvP even more then it is now.

If you wanted the epic battles they promised, forget it, they adapted a guild war approach instead of the clan-omni war approach that crashed the server at every battle!

6 vs. 6 or even 12 vs. 12 is absolutely viable and lag-free.

1 vs. 1 is idiotic unless yer just goofing around or happen to be the same profession fighting each other.

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Originally posted by Bionitrous
6 vs. 6 or even 12 vs. 12 is absolutely viable and lag-free.

1 vs. 1 is idiotic unless yer just goofing around or happen to be the same profession fighting each other.

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Ugh...Again, stuck agreeing with Bionitrous :p

100 vs 100 isn't viable in any MMORPG on the market, so long as developers insist on supporting low speed customers (33.6).

In terms of playfields crashing, I believe its more an issue of the rate people enter the same area than it is of the servers themselves supporting the numbers. After all, just because we don't see them there doesn't mean Omni Entertainment or Tir doesn't have a couple hundred people people wandering around in various locations. I do hit an initial lag storm when encountering large groups. But once my PC stabilizes, I usually don't have a problem.

12 vs. 12 is hardly lag-free, in any zone. Anytime you have that many people in close proximity it is difficult for those without good computers. And pvp is always in fairly close proximity, so saying that lag is affected by the 'rate people enter the same area' is only reinforcing that point, since people are moving around in and out of view as they attack and retreat.

In any case, this is what I believe will happen with the booster and pvp...

Many 'average-joe' players will buy the booster pack for the bonuses and a chance to try out 'meaningful' pvp. Then the most powerful guilds will simply destroy all of the lesser guilds' towers over and over again. Then they will use their twinks or make new ones and stick them in a new guild just to destroy all the lower level towers. The whining about pvp will hit an all-time high, assuming enough people are still around to whine. The 'average-joe' players will be left in the dust. This does not cater to them in any way, shape, or form. The experienced pvpers will crush them and they'll whine some more. As an example, many months ago a force of about 25 clanners from role-playing-style guilds decided to raid 2ho. 7-8 Trinity members happened to be in the area when they attacked. The entire clan force was wiped out within 2 minutes without a single casualty, and they never came back. This is what I believe will occur with the towers as well, but just my opinion. ;)

AO does have some issues with large player numbers - the loading of meshes and textures can have serious impact on rendering. This appears to be a client-side problem. Large numbers of players also generate a lot of traffic, which is always going to be a problem without significant optomisations to bandwidth usage (which may not be practicable).

However, the system as is seems to be perfectly capable of supporting 30-40 players in range without major slow-downs (though mass nano casting might cause problems). It will be interesting to see if FC make any changes to the client to improve things.

And agreeing with Bionitrous is nothing to ba ashamed of (well, form time to time anyway...) :D

THats all i want. A PvP server.

The other mmorpg's do it.

Why cant Funcom?

I think the one thing that turns people off PvP is this:

If someone 10 levels above you gets you in his sights, you haven't got a prayer. Unfortunately with the current system, it's possible - in fact, probable that you can be a legitimate target to someone 50 or more levels above you.

OTOH, I can't think of a way round this that isn't open to some horrible exploit, so I susect I'll just have to live with being smacked into the ground by people 50+ levels above me until I can claw up another 50 or so levels. Actually, no. 69 levels. The two really cool new NT nukes have a level requirement of 195. (Stupid if you ask me, but there you go. It's not like a 1k+MC requirement wasn't hard enough).

atleast your nanos were good. Engys new nano increases dmg by 60 and adds som defence, costs +1k mc AND ts. Oh, it only lasts 34 secs as well

True, but engie...no, damnit, I am NOT getting into a class war here!


Yhe real point is this:

"Guys there's a red NT out there"

"Is he 194 or 195?"

"194"

"Ok, get him!"

"No, wait, he's 195!"

"AAARGH, RUN AWAY!!!"

Extreme example yes, but the point is this: There is precious little difference between a 194 NT and a 195 NT, espeically in terms on MC skill, yet one can use these nukes and the other can't.

WHY?! Surely in a SKILL-based system, it should be the SKILLS that decide what a character can and cannot do!

(Of course, I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but it's worth a try).

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Originally posted by Keldrys

In any case, this is what I believe will happen with the booster and pvp...

Many 'average-joe' players will buy the booster pack for the bonuses and a chance to try out 'meaningful' pvp. Then the most powerful guilds will simply destroy all of the lesser guilds' towers over and over again. Then they will use their twinks or make new ones and stick them in a new guild just to destroy all the lower level towers. The whining about pvp will hit an all-time high, assuming enough people are still around to whine. The 'average-joe' players will be left in the dust. This does not cater to them in any way, shape, or form. The experienced pvpers will crush them and they'll whine some more. As an example, many months ago a force of about 25 clanners from role-playing-style guilds decided to raid 2ho. 7-8 Trinity members happened to be in the area when they attacked. The entire clan force was wiped out within 2 minutes without a single casualty, and they never came back. This is what I believe will occur with the towers as well, but just my opinion. ;)

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i so agree with this it aint funny.

guess wether i will buy the booster or not :P?

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Originally posted by Guaje
THats all i want. A PvP server.

The other mmorpg's do it.

Why cant Funcom?
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Originally posted by Jekyll
read my sig:
Kristopher Jecc Vallegos - RK1
170+ Nano Technician
Unit member of Lost Chapter

- Make pure PvP server. 25% suppression in major cities, 0% everywhere else. And no level restrictions

- Remove PvP titles from the game

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hmm... "- Make pure PvP server. 25% suppression in major cities, 0% everywhere else. And no level restrictions "?
Shouldnt that be on the regular servers anyway? I remember when I first read about AO it was about the battle Clan vs Omni. Well, I dont see a battle. I only see duels here and there. Im no PvPer, but I dont mind to meet a lvl200 in 2ho (just an example..not many places with 25% or less gas *sigh*) on my way to a mission. I may either escape or get beaten up, but hey, its a war between clan and omni. Its supposed to be like this and I hope the booster pack will highlight this conflict some more.

..flame on

i don't think pvp is broken personally, i think if we were rewarded for doing it the way things are set up would be nice though. pvp right now is not meant for 1 vs 1 unless you are both of same profession, then it's balanced. one profession vs another if both people know what they are doing, then is when it's not balanced because certain professions own others, and in turn get owned by others still. see what i'm saying?

pvp in this game seems like it's actually structured around a group. the only problem is, that you only get rewarded via titles if you solo, not if you are teamed. that is where pvp is broken, reward us even if teamed up and it will promote better wars.

doc's aren't sought after at higher lvls for missions, but if team pvp were encouraged, then everyone would want a doc in team for CH and init debuff. and everyone would be rewarded for this also. hope i made my thoughts clear.

3# is where the NT cant get a single nuke or debuff in because of 1k+ NR.. and look! the NT sucks at PvP again! =P.. sorry, just had to.. seriously tho, I've been smacked by a few NT's in the past, and they dont suck at PvP, it all comes down to how the player makes use of the tools at hand.

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Originally posted by Naraya


LOL. You may have a point about #1 and #2, but ummm... #3 is where your Rapid Palsy hit yer own NCU. An NT does not suck at PvP...it depends on how the NT is played.

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Originally posted by Guaje
THats all i want. A PvP server.

The other mmorpg's do it.

Why cant Funcom?

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That would actually be a good idea. Taking a leaf from the other BIG MMORPG would be in Funcom's best interest. They have 44 servers last time I checked. Funcom has what, three? The other guys have two PVP servers, and two team based PVP servers. That feels about right from the gamers I've met. So Funcom needs to open 1 fully PvP server, and about 8 PvE servers, then they might see their subscriber base go way up.

As it is, most of the people I have met are just completly turned off by AO, and any other game for that matter, when they hear the term PvP. It serves little purpose for folks who want to find some friends online and have some fun. It's not fear, or lameness, it is just a lack of time in their lives for more conflict.

Unfortunately Funcom, like Mythic, decided that what gamers really want is to bash other gamers over the head with their hard fought for high level characters. And Funcom, like Mythic, is playing a distant third place race with the leader of the pack.

Someone else on the PvP forums stated that the problem is player balance in an RPG. It just can't be done. If you wanna do PvP and you want others to join you, then you have to have perfect player balance, and folks who get into that mindset. There are games that achieve this. UT, UT2k3, Q3A, just to name a few of the best sellers. Of course, they aren't RPG's because the folks who play those games know you can't do PvP correctly where some folks are 80th level, and others are 190th level. Nobody in their right mind would play PvP that way.

Why is class balance in pvp even an issue? Each class has a semi-defined role in the game. You pick that class because you think that doing what they do would be fun. Obviously some aren't going to be able to beat the crap out of others. To use the football analogy, it's like getting mad if the quarterback gets the crap kicked out of him in a 1 on 1 against a middle linebacker. Of course he's gonna lose in a fight. His only real option is to run. That's why when the whole team is there, 5-7 guys stand between him and the linebacker. Does that make him any less usefull against the other team? No. He's fine the way he is as long as he doesn't get any crazy ideas about taking linebackers or linemen head on.

And about the original post, they said the towers would give benefits, so there is reason to get as much land as possible.

Maybe to urge the omni/clan war on they could give smaller general benefits based on what all the omni orgs hold vs what all the clan orgs hold. Well, neuts too I guess.

As for the average joe player... who cares. I am one myself, and honestly I don't ever expect to be uber. Why should I? We aren't supposed to be able to keep up with players who play more avidly. Since time put in directly equals reward yeah dummy the people who put more time in are going to get ahead and get more stuff and more levels and more twinks and whatnot. Duh.
Also, of course uberguilds are going to own... of course it's then up to the little to perhaps band together and take them on. Once again that strange and radical concept of teamwork...

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Originally posted by Arithus
Why is class balance in pvp even an issue? Each class has a semi-defined role in the game. You pick that class because you think that doing what they do would be fun. Obviously some aren't going to be able to beat the crap out of others. To use the football analogy, it's like getting mad if the quarterback gets the crap kicked out of him in a 1 on 1 against a middle linebacker. Of course he's gonna lose in a fight. His only real option is to run. That's why when the whole team is there, 5-7 guys stand between him and the linebacker. Does that make him any less usefull against the other team? No. He's fine the way he is as long as he doesn't get any crazy ideas about taking linebackers or linemen head on.

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i do agree that the basic idea is correct - there was a tier system once rating the professions as to how combat oriented they were. i agree pretty much with that stating that enforcer, martial artist and soldier should pretty much own in pvp because that is what you would expect when you read their description.

in one way or another they all devote themselves to fighting.


the problem with ao is that the cheerleaders and the side docs beat the living snot out of the middle linebacker.

that is what the people are arguing.

the one sided classes described as pure killers are at best so so in pvp.

Indeed what makes PvP(RvR) so 'balanced' in DAoC is the fact that there is little to no 1on1 combat. There is no ARENA. I think the anena was the death of PvP and the start of Nerfing in AO. Some poeple wanted an arena in DAoC and thounsands replied litterally 'no look what happened to AO's PvP!'.

THATS why pvp is bad, not because of ballance between classes. Hell anyone who has played any RvR in DAoC knows that group vs group combat is WERE IT'S AT!