Remove the mechanics for complete IPR and burn the disks the code is on!

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Originally posted by Waffen


You were writing colloquially in which things are implied. Try writing it more technically if you want it to be taken 100% literal.

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Waffen, I know well what I wrote. One of the benefits of being the person that wrote it. I also know that there's absolutely nothing wrong with what I wrote, grammatically or otherwise. You misread it. And now you choose to avoid admitting you misread it

Yeesh...

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Originally posted by Waffen
Gaute and the rest of FC have more than just emphasized, but promised quite a lot of things. Way back they swore up and down that we would NEVER have an IPR. They swore up and down that there would NEVER be über loot, über unique mobs or any of the other EQ-type spawn/camp nonsense.

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Oh, boo hoo. And the Founding Fathers promised "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" which didn't apply to everyone till the '60s. I won't even mention the "All Men are created equally" bit.

Gaute and the rest of FC have made promises. They've also said things they'd like to do. So they may not be able to fulfill all their promises or be able to do everything they'd like to do.? That's life. I never understood how people can attempt to hold others to an impossibly high standard in a game when attempting to do the same in Life would have them laughed at or pitied for being so naive. What matters is they do their best to fulfil the basic intention they gave when they published this game:

Attempt to provide a source of entertainment for their customers.

And anyone that says they don't try that, especially with the current examples of others in the same industry, is just acting out of bitterness and petulance. Funcom may have a knack for overpromising things but I don't doubt the sincerity of their intentions, which is more than I can say for a lot of developers in the game industry.

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Oh, boo hoo. And the Founding Fathers promised "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" which didn't apply to everyone till the '60s. I won't even mention the "All Men are created equally" bit.

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Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

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Gaute and the rest of FC have made promises. They've also said things they'd like to do. So they may not be able to fulfill all their promises or be able to do everything they'd like to do.? That's life. I never understood how people can attempt to hold others to an impossibly high standard in a game when attempting to do the same in Life would have them laughed at or pitied for being so naive.

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You asked "Why do you think Gaute emphasized the complete reset was 1 Time Only? Because he enjoys twistings people's panties?" I merely pointed out that FC swore to the ends of the Earth that we would have no IPR previous to that. Guess what happened? They changed their minds.

It seems to me you are the one holding FC to an impossibly high standard by Gaute's emphasis on a one-time-only total IPR.

Boo hoo yourself.

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Originally posted by Waffen


Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

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It's about complaining over promises made, which you brought up. Not me.

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Originally posted by Waffen
You asked "Why do you think Gaute emphasized the complete reset was 1 Time Only? Because he enjoys twistings people's panties?" I merely pointed out that FC swore to the ends of the Earth that we would have no IPR previous to that. Guess what happened? They changed their minds.

It seems to me you are the one holding FC to an impossibly high standard by Gaute's emphasis on a one-time-only total IPR.

Boo hoo yourself.

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I asked the question to show that they felt the reset was justified only that one time. Because of the bugs with the IP system. They didn't offer a complete reset because a couple skills got changed. Attempting to find justification for another reset when the situation has not repeated itself is wishful thinking.

You do have a knack for deflecting attention away from unanswered questions however
[list=1][*]What skills exactly, pre-change, were required by these crossbows?[*]Why do you think Gaute emphasized the complete reset was 1 Time Only? Because he enjoys twistings people's panties?[*]What defines 'viable' anyways?[*]Could you explain?

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Originally posted by Waffen
And AO "a bad version of Quake and Diablo" due to a full IPR? Good thing you said that. Now people really know where you are coming from. I'll be nice and say - extreme exaggeration.

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[/list=1]

1. Look it up in a database or on the MA forums yourself. You probably wouldn't believe me anyway.

2. He changed his mind for his own reasons. I don't live in his head, so maybe you should find out from him.

3. If you can't figure out what a "viable" weapon is in the game, you should quit now.

4. Could I explain? Sure. You're irrational to think AO would become a bad version of Quake and Diablo because of a total IPR.

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Originally posted by Kuroshio

I asked the question to show that they felt the reset was justified only that one time. Because of the bugs with the IP system. They didn't offer a complete reset because a couple skills got changed. Attempting to find justification for another reset when the situation has not repeated itself is wishful thinking.

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This is why they did the total IPR? You know that for a fact?

Here is one fact I do know - they made that promise to never have a total IPR when all those IP bugs were widespread. In fact, we were screaming for IPR because of it, and they still said no.

And you know what? FC can have a total IPR when they see fit, for whatever reason they see fit. They don't need to replicate possible reasons for it that happened in the past, and they sure don't need your or anyone elses permission for it.

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Originally posted by Waffen


This is why they did the total IPR? You know that for a fact?

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No I was not sure (it's been almost a year since the complete IP Reset). So I went looking :)

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Originally posted:
15 December, 2001
Gaute Godager - Game Director, Anarchy Online

There were many people with the conviction that overequipping is part of the game, and should not be punished. Some people said overequipping is the only way to solo / survive. Others think (maybe the most popular vote?) that extreme overequipping should be punished, and some (a few) think all overequipping should be reacted to at once - hard.

Having pondered this for quite some time, what I think I'd like to do is change the overequipping rules only when they come as a "package" of other stuff that can make life easier.

These are the solutions I would like to implement: (Disclaimer! Please understand that these are design suggestions, not promises, as to the way they should be implemented. View them as the general "gist" of things.)

Before I go on with the concrete solutions, I would like to say that since my preference is to group the changes - to make it a package, it will take some time before all the changes are implemented. It can take a few months because they might be quite big. We will keep you posted on their progress though.

At the time we implement any changes in the overequipping rules, include the following changes to the game:
...

• A ONCE-OFF VOLUNTARY "IP- reset". I have to make sure right now the limitations of it! (An IP reset means that you keep your level and experience points, get your skills reset, and IP returned.
• This will happen only once in the history of the game. (As long as I am Game Director at least :p)

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Turns out Overequipping was the primary cause.

As for this:

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Originally posted by Waffen
1. Look it up in a database or on the MA forums yourself. You probably wouldn't believe me anyway.

2. He changed his mind for his own reasons. I don't live in his head, so maybe you should find out from him.

3. If you can't figure out what a "viable" weapon is in the game, you should quit now.

4. Could I explain? Sure. You're irrational to think AO would become a bad version of Quake and Diablo because of a total IPR.

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Can I assume that this means you have no answers that you can express? Cause those aren't answers.

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Originally posted by Kuroshio


No I was not sure (it's been almost a year since the complete IP Reset). So I went looking :)

Turns out Overequipping was the primary cause.

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i bet that the people who were heavily overequipping at that time were not the ones who misspend ip.

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Originally posted by Kuroshio

As for this:


Can I assume that this means you have no answers that you can express? Cause those aren't answers.

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Then you truly are daft. I'm through with you, and no amount of your baiting will change that. In true pig-headed arrogance, you banter on aimlessly on your world vision of how AO should be run and discount everyone else's point of view as meaningless. You cannot empathize with anyone else's situation as you think they are always wrong. You argue for the sake of arguing. You are quite frankly, the worst type of selfish player in the AO community.

I really hope we do get a full IPR, not that I need it, but for you to hold to your promise and leave. Interestingly enough, that's about how a six-year-old threatens and pouts to get their way.

Feel free to put me on your /ignore list.

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Originally posted by Waffen


Then you truly are daft. I'm through with you, and no amount of your baiting will change that. In true pig-headed arrogance, you banter on aimlessly on your world vision of how AO should be run and discount everyone else's point of view as meaningless. You cannot empathize with anyone else's situation as you think they are always wrong. You argue for the sake of arguing. You are quite frankly, the worst type of selfish player in the AO community.

I really hope we do get a full IPR, not that I need it, but for you to hold to your promise and leave. Interestingly enough, that's about how a six-year-old threatens and pouts to get their way.

Feel free to put me on your /ignore list.

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I'm daft because I didn't find

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1. Look it up in a database or on the MA forums yourself. You probably wouldn't believe me anyway.

2. He changed his mind for his own reasons. I don't live in his head, so maybe you should find out from him.

3. If you can't figure out what a "viable" weapon is in the game, you should quit now.

4. Could I explain? Sure. You're irrational to think AO would become a bad version of Quake and Diablo because of a total IPR.
[/b]

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To be informative answers?
[list=1][*]You reply with 0 information.[*] I didn't ask you why he changed his mind. I asked you why you thought he emphasized no more complete resets. But you offer no information.[*]I asked for your definition of 'viable' What you reply with again is 0 information and an attempted insult.[*]I asked you to explain what you meant. Your insult, while humorous, again offers 0 information.[/list=1]

Can you not answer the questions? Are you afraid to answer them? Or is the sum of your argument nothing more than flames? You have a position don't you? Defend it. Or is that why you won't give a substantial answer? I've defended mine this entire time.

And don't get your hopes up, sweetheart. I said I'd leave if reset points were given to people without them having earned them.

ok, at the moment we seem to have got intoa flame war, which isn't good for this thread.

The way I see the present situation is this (disclaimer this will probably be slightly biased against complete IPR, but I will try and be as fair as possible :) )

Experimentation: Not a valid arguement for 2 reasons. firstly it is possible to experiment without it (people did before we got it, and we have 8 character slots). Secondly experimentation with items is only possible after earning items, so why shouldn't you have to earn more ip to experiment? possible exception in this section for characters of very high level (200ish)

major rules changes: Possibly, aslong as the rules change (or mechanics change, or item change, or whatever the heck else you want to call it before someone drags me up over semantics ;) ) renders the skill either useless, or MUCH less valuble than before. Off hand example of a possible justified skill is weapon smithing, after the scope nerf, for profs such as soldiers, who are basically non tradeskills characters (only possible, it would have to have some thought from FC what would actually count). again I feel some sort of help should be given to level 200ish characters to let them compete with the up and coming people who have been able to tailor their characters to the latest items, but I would prefer something that wasn't instant.

So personally I can see no need for a total IPR, and only possible needs for one skill IPR.

Hugs

lilnymph

i have to say as long as we do not know what means (if any) for additional iprs past the current maximum of 15 will be build it would be unwise to dismiss the total ipr.

furthermore it would only be fair that people who reactivated their account after the complete ipr get ONE (1) "complete stark naked swipe the board reroll" as well.

blackwing, I can see no need for the total IPR, as we know that funcom can give us more IPR points if they wish (though I can't think of enough rule changes yet off hand that you would have NEEDED to use 15 IPR points for ;)

hugs

lilnymph

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Originally posted by lilnymph
ok, at the moment we seem to have got intoa flame war, which isn't good for this thread.

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Flame war? Whatever do you mean? /me hide his flamethrower behind his back and yanks on Fluffy's, his pet dragon, leash :eek:

I picked an unpopular stance. It's a stance that comes down against the desires of a lot of players. That tends to open me up to flames. But that's okay. Most people aren't very good at it. What people want doesn't always mean what's best for the game.

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Originally posted by Kuroshio


Flame war? Whatever do you mean? /me hide his flamethrower behind his back and yanks on Fluffy's, his pet dragon, leash :eek:

I picked an unpopular stance. It's a stance that comes down against the desires of a lot of players. That tends to open me up to flames. But that's okay. Most people aren't very good at it. What people want doesn't always mean what's best for the game.

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I agree and understand completely.

had my wars about this already, someone has to say something though or FUncom will just listen to all the whining.

:D

I disagree and don't understand.

This is a game, it's supposed to be fun entertainment. There are a lot of people playing, who for various reasons, would like a Total IPR. Largely because Single IPRs are still limited.

Some of you think this would be very bad for the game. But, none of the arguments here have convinced me that an occassional Total IPR would be bad for the game.

I think everyone would agree that earning single IPRs would be a better solution, but until that mechanism is in place, you will continue to hear people requesting a Total IPR. And the longer we go without one, the louder it will get.

Some of the people in this thread invite flames by presenting non-convincing arguments about how the occassional Total IPR will have a negative effect on the game and by dismissing those interested in reform as just a bunch of whiners.

Well, guess what? Many people think those in opposition of Total IPRs have lame arguments and are whiners. They feel that they are the worst kind of whiners, because they are whining from the position of "I don't want it, so you shouldn't get it".

I'm not gonna sit here and flame people for their opinions. I know many of you truly believe you are standing up for the integrity of the game. I haven't found your arguments convincing, though. And you haven't found my counter-arguments convincing. So I guess we'll just have to both sit here and think we're right and the other is wrong.

I personally don't think it matters. The last Total IPR did not ruin the game, did not cause untold havoc and a degradation of all that is good and pure. If they did another Total IPR now, and yet another a month after Shadowlands release... it would not break the game, it would not initiate mass nerfs, it would not be the end of all that is holy and pure. But it would make their customers happier and less frustrated.

The longer FunCom goes without adding a way to get more single IPRs, the louder the cry will become to get another total IPR. And eventually they will provide one of those solutions. Because, they are a service, and they need to keep their customers happy or they will lose them.

Please feel free to call me a whiner and dismiss me as ignorant and uninformed. Or you can continue trying to convince me that occassional Total IPRs are bad for the game. In the end, it won't matter.

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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
I disagree and don't understand.

This is a game, it's supposed to be fun entertainment. There are a lot of people playing, who for various reasons, would like a Total IPR. Largely because Single IPRs are still limited.

Some of you think this would be very bad for the game. But, none of the arguments here have convinced me that an occassional Total IPR would be bad for the game.

I think everyone would agree that earning single IPRs would be a better solution, but until that mechanism is in place, you will continue to hear people requesting a Total IPR. And the longer we go without one, the louder it will get.

Some of the people in this thread invite flames by presenting non-convincing arguments about how the occassional Total IPR will have a negative effect on the game and by dismissing those interested in reform as just a bunch of whiners.

Well, guess what? Many people think those in opposition of Total IPRs have lame arguments and are whiners. They feel that they are the worst kind of whiners, because they are whining from the position of "I don't want it, so you shouldn't get it".

I'm not gonna sit here and flame people for their opinions. I know many of you truly believe you are standing up for the integrity of the game. I haven't found your arguments convincing, though. And you haven't found my counter-arguments convincing. So I guess we'll just have to both sit here and think we're right and the other is wrong.

I personally don't think it matters. The last Total IPR did not ruin the game, did not cause untold havoc and a degradation of all that is good and pure. If they did another Total IPR now, and yet another a month after Shadowlands release... it would not break the game, it would not initiate mass nerfs, it would not be the end of all that is holy and pure. But it would make their customers happier and less frustrated.

The longer FunCom goes without adding a way to get more single IPRs, the louder the cry will become to get another total IPR. And eventually they will provide one of those solutions. Because, they are a service, and they need to keep their customers happy or they will lose them.

Please feel free to call me a whiner and dismiss me as ignorant and uninformed. Or you can continue trying to convince me that occassional Total IPRs are bad for the game. In the end, it won't matter.

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Nobody has been able to present an convincing arguement for why there should be a complete reset. I've seen people say "I wanna reset my pistol". I wasn't aware of any 15 skill pistols out there. People say "I want to experiment". How can a complete reset let you experiment? It can't. People say "I want a full reset because Funcom made me a gimp". I've always wanted to ask those people "How many levels did you gain since becoming a gimp".

People continue to circle around and around the issue, with people like me poking at the reasons drawing them closer to the real reason: "Now I've got access to the equipment that will make me superior in XXX so I need a complete reset to take advantage of it". That's the real reason. They lacked the resources before to capitalize on their IP so they spent it. But now they have the resources.

this is supposed to be an imersive presistant world. Basically Full IPR (or any IPR for that matter) are like "cheat codes" in single player games.

My character grew, and learned and has a personality all his own. No, I am not a role player, but people see me and say "hey D what is up!" ... guess what, my real name is not Dnastyone, it is not D (it is Todd in case you were wondering) ... he is a part of me, because I dont "role play"... I just play, but I play a certain way, and I do a lot of planning and calculating and massaging of skills, and experimenting. It makes my character unique.

What you are saying is "just let people become what they want whenever they want" and I do not agree with this. In long term online games you will have plenty of time to develop as many toons as you want as high as you want and with whatever skills you want.

I have seen a LOT more doc's with snakemasters since the IPR's started, a lot more beam weilding atrox, there are probably more people using the QB right now than there were ever 2he users on the servers, lots of people went MA, then ditched it for something else.

In one word it sucks, it is not imersive. If you want to change your skills it should cost you, and I am not talking creds or time, I am talking IP... You know I have over 400 MA on my enforcer because he wanted to use BWT on people in pvp... and I OWNED using that on people, fast little fixers still dying after gridding out, doc's moaning at me and calling me exploiter when I was really just inteligent and cunning... I have not used an IPR on it... why you ask? Because it is lame, that MA is part of my personality. If you are "must be super duper uber" then I pitty you because you are going to pick the items that are about to be nerfed.

When everyone uses the same thing it gets nerfed, nova's, Freedom arms, scopes, crit buffs, crit or die weapons, Bracers, soon to be QB probably.

IPR suck for two reasons.

1) you are not held accountable for you decisions on making your toon (any idiot can follow a cookie cutter esp with IPR to fix "oop's"). This is not a twitch game, the skill is in the planning, basically it is giving the inferior players the ability to be competitive without learning a thing. DUMB

2) nerfs are made due to IPR, look at the list of items above to see that. dumb dumb dumb.. I would rather nerf myself than have funcom nerf me... and I would MUCH rather you nerf yourself rather than have YOUR mistakes create nerfs for me.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has ever explained to me how funcom nerfed them so bad they had to use a full IPR and 15 IPR points. Everyone out of IPR were experimenting and they were INTENDED to let people fix funcom mistakes. If you spend your rent money at a casino it is not MY fault... you spend IPR on what you should and you will have plenty.

Full IPR, or even giving out a batch of IPR to everyone = my account canceled.

Yes, it would ruin the game.

oh fyi, there are so SO SO SO many IP at the high end game that it is not funny, you CAN make a FEW mistakes without being gimped.

Yazule, you left out Decraniums. That got nerfed back hard when everyone and their clone was wearing it.

online games are NOT static. that is the concept - they get patches and these patches alter game dynamics due to content and rule changes.

yes people jumping because of content are jumping a bandwagon - manex and queen blade come to mind - but people jumping due to rule changes what about them?

furthermore i would like to second what curmudgeon said about ipr and total iprs because it mirrors my feelings well -

as long as there is no method to earn more single iprs you will see "complete reset now" threads spring up.

as to kuro:

People continue to circle around and around the issue, with people like me poking at the reasons drawing them closer to the real reason:

what makes you so sure that YOU exactly found the real reason why people want ipr and not say curmudgeon or i?

basically (again backing curmudgeons post) in what way has the ipr last when was it may (?) hurt the game?

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Originally posted by Blackwing
online games are NOT static. that is the concept - they get patches and these patches alter game dynamics due to content and rule changes.

yes people jumping because of content are jumping a bandwagon - manex and queen blade come to mind - but people jumping due to rule changes what about them?

furthermore i would like to second what curmudgeon said about ipr and total iprs because it mirrors my feelings well -

as long as there is no method to earn more single iprs you will see "complete reset now" threads spring up.

as to kuro:

People continue to circle around and around the issue, with people like me poking at the reasons drawing them closer to the real reason:

what makes you so sure that YOU exactly found the real reason why people want ipr and not say curmudgeon or i?

basically (again backing curmudgeons post) in what way has the ipr last when was it may (?) hurt the game?

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IP Reset Points makes it impossible to control the distribution of items or abilities except through extraordinary means. Being able to control the distribution of items is a key factor in maintaining some semblance of balance in the game. Note I did not say "Perfect Balance" but something that resembles balance. If a developer cannot control the distribution of items in the game by being able to rely on the fact that not every character will be able to use that item, the developer has to take other more drastic steps to prevent the best items from unbalancing the game. Such as making those items extremely rare drops. Or placing those items on extremely difficult mobs. Or placing those items where the natural greed of the players will limit the distribution (camping and price gouging).

For examples of this, please see the following:

• Nullity Sphere
• Nophex Destroyers
• PPPE Shape Hard/Soft Armor
• Notum Fragments
• Before credits became so readily availible, Yalmahas
• Grid Armor

And a host of others items we prolly all can add to the list

When their attempts to limit the distribution of an item fail or balance is affected (and they are doomed to fail because a focused player will get what they want), the developer has to fall back onto even more drastic measures to restore balance. These are what we lovingly call "Nerfs".

For examples of item/ability nerfs, please refer to Yazule's list of items.

Complete resets are further imbalancing because they further negate the expenditure of IP, which is a natural 'brake' in the process of aquiring items. A Complete Reset allows the player to aquire items or abilities with skills they would not have had if they were investing to use the item beforehand, making the aquisition process easier. And then reset those skills to use the item they may not have been able to aquire. Or would not have been able to aquire so easily.

These are not made up reasons. We've all seen the evidence of them in every nerf a profession receives. In every item we complain is too difficult to find. In every mob that requires whole organizations to defeat in order to aquire 1 single item. Would we find a Nanocrystal (Summon Grid Armor Mark I) in our Advanced Supermarket if reset points didn't exist? No not likely, because its distribution would be guaranteed among lower level fixers, possibly skewing balance at that level. But it might be possible that we would have seen a Nanocrystal (Summon Grid Armor Mark IV) in Superior Supermarkets if it was known that between 5 fixers of equal level, only 1 of them would be able to use it because of the choices they made when developing their characters. And we damn sure wouldn't have seen nerfs to some of the items in the game.