FC's Vision for Rebalancing - Traders

Current stage of rebalancing efforts look like this for Traders.

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--Traders:
Drains: ** see below **

Nanolines: Potential merging of various buff/debuff lines. Debuff lines will most likely see differing durations based off PvP/PvM usage.

Damage Boost Nanolines: Extension of nanoline across all Trader levelling ranges.

Pets: Extend (and make not-suck) 'Committee' pet line for lower levels.

Roots/Calms: Duration decreased, faster casting, increased functionality in Shadowlands (goes for all professions). Extension of calm lines across all leveling ranges.

Damage to Nano: Likely hard-capped at a value below 100%. This change will effect all classes utilizing this mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Kintaii

GTH has long a sticking point for me in a lot of ways for a lot of reasons... at the end of the day I like the concept behind GTH (that being an invasive nanodrain on a target that gives the Trader a large boost to their own nano-regen on a single target), but I disagree with its current implementation in the game.

While I can't say one way or another exactly what we'll be doing to GTH, and I won't say that the concept will disappear, the nano's current implementation will most likely be drastically altered.

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Updated 3/1/10

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Borrow Reflect
1) Universal use, target is correct if the target has more than 24% reflects.
2) Debuffs 30% for 15 seconds.
3) Buffs 30% for 60 seconds.

Grand Theft Humidity
1) 15% of the target's nanopool will be stripped every second for 15 seconds, irregardless of opponent's profession.
2) 10% of our nanopool will be restored every second for 15 seconds.
3) There is a new cooldown period of 1 minute.
4) As before, GTH will terminate on opponent if the Trader dies.

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Feel free to comment/complain/cheer/cry.

This has to be the most vague plan.

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Originally Posted by Zirreall

This has to be the most vague plan.

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It is admittedly. There was going to be a (rather big) thing on drains too, but apparently FunCom is on tenterhooks as to how it'll play out. I can't tell you much more than that, but I (and possibly Chacapo) will keep this thread updated if anything pops up, rest assured.

Bah, wtb more specific and detailed info as soon as possible :(

Wish FC had detailed info about traders like they had about soldiers for example. There's hardly anything to discuss here atm with the current info >.<

Seems we are not getting the secondary AS skill.

From agent forum:

"Aimed Shot: Agents exclusively will get access to a secondary Aimed Shot special, sort of like Backstab. Name will probably be Snipe Shot, and it won't deal more damage than a Burst."

Do not view "Vague" as a negative. Instead, take what that has been listed as areas which FC is aiming to change and make positive and constructive discussion.

If you think it is vague, does that mean you have more detailed suggestions and/or ideas? If so, now is the time to list it and discuss it, thus allowing the professionals to get the buy-in and champion them. Iron out all the pros and cons in the discussions coz if any negative is to come up during the discussions, it will surely occur during the fc rebalancing efforts.

Since this post is extremely lacking with what we have now, I will put in what the drain idea was. The post below was not mine, this was from the guys "up top." And here it be.

However.

DO NOT INTERPRET THIS AS A CONCRETE OR FINAL IDEA AT THIS TIME. THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THIS MECHANIC WILL MAKE IT IN GAME.

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The current thought is this: As we go through the rebalancing efforts, we're going to have to alter our PvM encounters to fit more in line with the new player abilities/stats/ect. While we're at it, 'seeding' monster groups with additional procs, nanos, attacks, ect. ect. is also a distinct possibility.

In looking at Trader drains, it'd be a matter of having the drain recognize what monster group the drain is being casted against and then returning a nano on the Trader that opens up a new special attack based on what's being drained. Additionally, as a PvP value, the same would be true for using drains against various professions, allowing the Trader to effectively steal a part of the defending profession's toolset.

As a practical example: A Trader in PvM uses their drains against... let's say a scorpiod mob. Drain lands, Trader receives an attack option titled "Scorpiod Sting" - Does direct damage and a small DoT when used, and the attack option disappears when the drain runs out. Trader uses the same drain against a Shade and receives an attack option titled "Vampiric Leech" - Adds a proc to the Trader that does a health steal on attack. And so on and so forth.

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Gth?

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Originally Posted by sukas

Gth?

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No word on GTH atm. It's in the wishlist, and if demand is big I'll poke the big guys about it. If FunCom puts something out about GTH, it's goin' here, no hesitation.

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"The current thought is this: As we go through the rebalancing efforts, we're going to have to alter our PvM encounters to fit more in line with the new player abilities/stats/ect. While we're at it, 'seeding' monster groups with additional procs, nanos, attacks, ect. ect. is also a distinct possibility.

In looking at Trader drains, it'd be a matter of having the drain recognize what monster group the drain is being casted against and then returning a nano on the Trader that opens up a new special attack based on what's being drained. Additionally, as a PvP value, the same would be true for using drains against various professions, allowing the Trader to effectively steal a part of the defending profession's toolset.

As a practical example: A Trader in PvM uses their drains against... let's say a scorpiod mob. Drain lands, Trader receives an attack option titled "Scorpiod Sting" - Does direct damage and a small DoT when used, and the attack option disappears when the drain runs out. Trader uses the same drain against a Shade and receives an attack option titled "Vampiric Leech" - Adds a proc to the Trader that does a health steal on attack. And so on and so forth."

^
This concept sounds very cool on paper. I'm not quite sure why traders would need this though. I mean, atm it seems like something that is cool for the sake of being cool.

If drains are being nerfed in power to counter the fact that we gain these new special procs/attacks, then I would rather keep our original drains. My reasoning is basically that I'd rather have a toolset that I can rely on rather than a toolset that changes all the time. As a trader I have enough to think about in PvP. I don't really need/want to worry about who to drain and when, beyond who is the biggest threat.

If drains are NOT nerfed in power (because of this new mechanic) and that these procs/specials are added on top of our original drains, then I guess I will welcome them as they add some interesting twists/strategies without having any drawbacks. At least for PvM. Sounds like they would overly complicate things but it depends on how it's being implemented.

Having all of that said, if this makes it ingame, then I would like for it to be procs and not specials. I think.. I'm not 100% sure yet. I have to think about it. My only concern atm is that if it's "specials" and not "automatic procs", then it sounds like I would have to keep my controls-window open at all times and have it be neatly sorted so that I can see and make use of these specials when they appear effectively. I assume they would appear in the controls-window (where all the perks and procs are located). Procs would simply be easier to handle because they work automatically and wont require me to mess around with the controls window all the time.

For PvP though, I'm not a fan of the concept.
In PvP we have to drain targets all the time. We are based on this fact.
We have to drain new targets all the time because it's not so much the buffs we get from drains that are important. The important thing about drains is that the target is debuffed.

So if drains give us new specials or procs depending on what profession the target is, then I wont be able to think "cool, I drained a shade, now I can run around with a life-drain ability" because the very instant a new target appears, I have to drain that as well and so I lose the life-drain ability.

So it's just chaotic and not very practical.

I'd rather have FC work on something that is more down to earth, usable and dependable.

I want to note that I initially told the Trader professionals not to post information on this idea as it is probably the most tenuous thing we currently have jotted down for the rebalancing efforts - To get it to work properly would require a very, very large amount of work, and while it is something that I view as interesting and fun for Traders I don't view it as being particularly vital in a lot of ways to the Trader profession at the moment, and considering the other work which is ultimately more vital in the rebalancing efforts this particular idea is one of the ones most likely to either be dropped or to see implementation at a later date (outside of the current rebalancing efforts).

What follows is a lightly edited version of something I wrote earlier today, in response to a conversation between myself and Saetos, which I think bears repeating here:

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Originally Posted by Kintaii

I wanna say again that I'm sorry for pulling the rug out a bit on this one - As I said in earlier in the thread, the Trader drain stuff is the most tenuous of all the various plans we've posted and, in the long run, honestly the least likely to be implemented. However, the reason behind that is we honestly view the "feel" of Traders to actually be ok - Like Shades, Traders are one of the few professions in AO that we really think still have the true core and nature of their profession well-defined; Traders, in terms of theme and feel, are still pretty much spot on.

There are a lot of professions in AO that, over the years, have lost their "feel" - Their spark, the thing that makes them truly unique. Ultimately, we're trying to restore a bit of that to the professions that need it, and make them feel special again - Traders are one of the very few professions to be in a spot lucky enough to where their overall core definition hasn't really been diminished over the years. I say "lucky" because at the end of the day, unlike a lot of other professions, their roles will only be slightly changed by the rebalancing efforts, meaning that most Traders will have to do very little in terms of altering their character/setup after the rebalancing hits. This is not to say, however, that things won't change at all.

It's been a bit hard trying to convey to people that the rebalancing takes place on two fronts - First, from a systems standpoint (things such as the new Agent Mimic actions, or the NT nanoweaving idea), we're attempting to reconvey a sense of uniqueness to the various professions. Secondly, however, we are also attempt a complete and overall *numbers* rebalancing, meaning that even beyond adding in new shinies, we're also trying to make the rest of the game as balanced as possible - Bringing professions attack ratings in-line, adjusting healing amounts, balancing overall damage output, adjusting skills needed to cast nanos, ect. ect. While the first part of the rebalancing (the systems adjustment) may not end up effecting Traders that much, the second part (the numbers balancing) will effect EVERYONE, hopefully bringing *all* professions onto a much more interesting (and level) playing field.

So yes - Even without the "enhanced" drains, there are still many things which will be adjusted for Traders over the coming months. It just may not all carry quite the same sparkly shiny nature as some other professions.

Hope that clears a few things up. =)

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In addition I also forc... asked Kintaii nicely for information regarding Grand Theft Humidity

In all seriousness he did oblige and I'm very thankful for it. The information below may not be the clear-cut answer you may want, but it's a good start.

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Originally Posted by Kintaii

GTH has long a sticking point for me in a lot of ways for a lot of reasons... at the end of the day I like the concept behind GTH (that being an invasive nanodrain on a target that gives the Trader a large boost to their own nano-regen on a single target), but I disagree with its current implementation in the game.

While I can't say one way or another exactly what we'll be doing to GTH, and I won't say that the concept will disappear, the nano's current implementation will most likely be drastically altered.

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Overall interesting and easy to "reserve judgment" on.

I do have one very big concern though, and it applies to Crats as well as they seem to have the same change/nerf incoming:

Roots/Calms: Duration decreased, faster casting, increased functionality in Shadowlands (goes for all professions). Extension of calm lines across all leveling ranges.

Love the improved functionality in SL and better extensions of the calm line......but...... the Duration decreased bit scares me to bits.

We aren't huge DD to begin with, so you go up to this nice big SL dyna, calm all the mobs around him and start throwing pebbles at him. If you have to recalm 4 adds every 30 sec you're not going to have a fun experience. You'll spend more time recalming or worring about recalming then about actually hitting the Dyna.

Hope we can that dialed back, or at least keep it as is now in PvM (can't speak for the desirability in PvP...am probably the only Trader on RK1 that doesn't PvP :D ) and then make it different for PvP if necessary (e.g. by having the duration shorter on BS and in the arenas).

When we talk about the durations for snares/roots/calms being decreased in some regards we ultimately mean in a balanced sense for all professions - As with the perk documentation, where we created a semi-firm rule that self-buffs should have a 1s execute time, we also plan on introducing an upper limit of time that *all* calms will exist for, and then spreading the duration of all calms throughout that time limit.

All of that said, it is also our hope to introduce mechanics which will see differing time exists for snares/roots/calms (and most likely stuns) based on whether it was cast on a PvM or a PvP target. While a calm's duration may last for (and this number is completely pulled out of my ass so don't take it seriously) 60s in PvM, the same calm would last for 20s in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Kintaii

When we talk about the durations for snares/roots/calms being decreased in some regards we ultimately mean in a balanced sense for all professions - As with the perk documentation, where we created a semi-firm rule that self-buffs should have a 1s execute time, we also plan on introducing an upper limit of time that *all* calms will exist for, and then spreading the duration of all calms throughout that time limit.

All of that said, it is also our hope to introduce mechanics which will see differing time exists for snares/roots/calms (and most likely stuns) based on whether it was cast on a PvM or a PvP target. While a calm's duration may last for (and this number is completely pulled out of my ass so don't take it seriously) 60s in PvM, the same calm would last for 20s in PvP.

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This is a good approach. PvM mechanics and PvP mechanics are very different in AO, so having abilities work exactly the same (duration for example) in both PvM and PvP will usually lead to problems.

So making durations and such different for PvM and PvP is a good move in a game like this.

This is what I personally think should be done to GTH:

1. Make it removable with all virus scanners.
2. Reduce duration and lockout to 30s (ish). (We can just cast it again if need be. Gives the target more chances to resist it)
3. Nanodelta should be set to 0 instead of going into negative. The other nanopool-drain-elements should stay as they are.

All of this may seem like a very big nerf to the nano but it's not quite as big as it seems because:

1. 30s duration and lockout also means that we can affect 2 targets every 1 minute rather than just 1. (If the first target didn't die)
2. Nanocost and Heals are apparently getting some nerfs so this would hopefully make GTH effective enough in its new and nerfed form. (It would not be very effective if nanoregen/cost and heals weren't nerfed because with the right setup, people can function for "a while" even with GTH in its current un-nerfed state. (I have done duels with NT's that kept going and did good damage for a long time even with GTH running on them constantly. Same with Docs. This is 1 vs 1 though, it's a very different story in mass PvP where they just go splat.)

I do think the trader should keep the same nano-regen-amount as it currently gets because if it's any lower, then it wont be of much use at all. The way it regenerates the traders nanopool right now only makes our nanoshield marginally better (and apparently nanoshield will be less effective after the max-reflect nerf if I understand that correctly). If our nanoregen was nerfed a lot, then there would be little use left for this nanoregen, unless our drains will cost a million nanopoints to cast after the profession changes :p

What I really want more info/discussion on is our PvP damage after the AS nerf.

The new perks seem nice, though I don't really know how easily they will land in PvP after the AAD/def-check changes.

AS however is our bread and butter when it comes to damage in PvP. It's the only dependable and noticeable damage we have against those that evade our DD-perks and even when DD-perks land, AS is the main source of damage.

As I understand it, Agent is the only profession that will get the secondary AS. Which means traders only get the first AS. I'm still a bit confused about how the first/primary AS works, but I think it's safe to say it will be worse than it currently is. 3 seconds to pull off and also possible to evade? Or was it just the secondary AS that could be evaded? Can the first AS be used multiple times on the same target in PvP? Do you have to be in sneak to use it in PvP?

Either way, it's not going to be as good as it currently is.

I really would like more info about how AS works and what FC have been thinking about in terms of trader offense in PvP because right now, it feels like it's all up in the air and that trader offense will end up.. however it will end up... due to chaos-theory rather than purposeful design.

Do you (FC) have a clear goal in mind when it comes to trader PvP damage performance? I got the feeling that normal weapon damage was going to be more important in future PvP but traders normal damage is only slightly above peoples reflect/damage-shields right now :p

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Originally Posted by Kintaii

When we talk about the durations for snares/roots/calms being decreased in some regards we ultimately mean in a balanced sense for all professions - As with the perk documentation, where we created a semi-firm rule that self-buffs should have a 1s execute time, we also plan on introducing an upper limit of time that *all* calms will exist for, and then spreading the duration of all calms throughout that time limit.

All of that said, it is also our hope to introduce mechanics which will see differing time exists for snares/roots/calms (and most likely stuns) based on whether it was cast on a PvM or a PvP target. While a calm's duration may last for (and this number is completely pulled out of my ass so don't take it seriously) 60s in PvM, the same calm would last for 20s in PvP.

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Kintaii, love the approach but it doesn't diminish my concern. The PvM experience could be meaningfully affected by shorter duration (than today) calms. Am really hoping you'll reconsider the PvM duration changes or at at worst make them very minor.

Like it or not, the player base has shrunk to the point where soloing a lot of PvM content is inevitable. Solid CC tools, including good duration calm are key to keeping this doable and fun.

personally i dont like the idea of merging diff debuff lines, not as a trader myself, and not as some1 figthing a trader neither, i really hope that you wont force to live anything that will make the game less complex, and this would
a practical issue with this: the less debuffs you have to cast, the less chance of resisting them have your enemy, wich gets us one or a few steps closer to a situation where the first nano landing decides the outcome of the fight
i agree that more debuff lines would be bad for traders in pvp, and to some lesser extend in pvm aswell, the current ammount i see as optimal tho, they might require ballancing each on their own, mergin even some of them tho aint the way to go, its just shortcut that will make the game less fun and complex

besides that, kinda little info here to comment/discuss,, the new prioc/special drians, is this supposed to come on top of the old drains or is it something thats supposed to replace them, if the latter then i definately dont like it, if its on top of it, then im not sure if traders should get yet another way to cripple their enemies, or steal a part of their toolset