Give us 151-174 battlestation? and level 170 to be attackable by 214? balance??

Old bs major TL5 range was lvl 150-174 and tons of 170 twinks were made.
Then someone in the devs team suddently chose, without even asking the community, us, to turn it into a lvl 151-200 range,
I just wonder why the devs team basically neglected the fact that it took much time and dedication to actually work on 170 twinks before they eventually created a need to make lvl 200 twinks all over again.
This issue has been bothering me for many years now, and I feel like my 170 twinks are just currently holding space that I could just use in order to create new adds just because I cannot seem to delete them after all the work I put in raising them.

170 vs 200 comparison

A lvl 200 has access to AI30, lvl 10 LE researches, to some pande gear,high QL symbs, DB bracers and so on. A lvl 170 twink is unlikely to compete with such gap between lvl 170 & 200.


So how hard could it be for the devs team to make a separated 150-174 BS ?
Wouldn't hurt anyone to get more balanced PvP, now would it?

Speaking of which, I still don't get the part where the devs team failed to see that that it kills AO and NW to let lvl 200+ players be able to attack lvl 160+ twinks, which is actually the main reason why TL5 community died out.

Level 170 vs 214 is a difference of : 44 (including 14 SK lvls) levels, 17 SL perks+ 6 AI perks difference. + beta symbiants + xan weapons etc etc, it is so dumb that you could basically let a lvl 220 gank a lvl 1, because they will die just as easy.
Bring 220 support/back up into a TL5 tower war? and why can even 220's be able to strike and kill TL5 tower sites for the matter? the whole PvP system is full of mistakes and the devs team keep ignoring that since day 1.
I really believe Anarchy Online lost a significant part of its subscibers because of that crooked mechanism, and it is sad that devs still ignore such gameplay(ability) issue.

Instead of making 151-200 BS into 151-174 & 175-200 ... why not just make it 151-189 & throw the others into 190-214? A lot of those 200 twinks are pretty damned amazing in pvp... I wouldn't doubt they can hold their own against 214s (aka those people from that one Neutral org)

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Originally Posted by Legendfluf

Instead of making 151-200 BS into 151-174 & 175-200 ... why not just make it 151-189 & throw the others into 190-214? A lot of those 200 twinks are pretty damned amazing in pvp... I wouldn't doubt they can hold their own against 214s (aka those people from that one Neutral org)

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This is pretty good.

I agree on the 190-214 thing, it makes sense, and if it didn't make sense, make it by TL... and just cut out the interpretive bullsh*t. 190-204. 205-220. 150-189. 100-149.

I never hear one 150 complain back in newland when we all used to fight 150-174. There was value in 150, just as there is now. A well set up 150 can take down a 170 with a friend or a bit of luck if the 170 doesn't have his CD's ready.

Imo, there are only two other things besides this that really needs work: the BS venue itself, and a minor level discrepancy buff.

remove the transporters, remove the ridiculously long hallways. Get people concentrated so instead of BS being a 1 vs 'how long can I run for before I AFK out', it's an actual teamfighting encounter.

Then, as for the level discrepancy buff, just add something like 3AAO/10AAD, 50HP, 10RS for each level a char is off from the max level in that BS. That will solve pretty much every problem there is in BS imo.

It make sens that 20 SL perks are even as 34 perks, but 17 perks are not even as 20 perks O.o F***logic.

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Originally Posted by Legendfluf

Instead of making 151-200 BS into 151-174 & 175-200 ... why not just make it 151-189 & throw the others into 190-214? A lot of those 200 twinks are pretty damned amazing in pvp... I wouldn't doubt they can hold their own against 214s (aka those people from that one Neutral org)

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I like this idea. This would also benefit players who are in BS for daily missions. 201-214 BSs barely spins.

Also agree with this:

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Originally Posted by Le-Quack

Then someone in the devs team suddently chose, without even asking the community, us, to turn it into a lvl 151-200 range,
I just wonder why the devs team basically neglected the fact that it took much time and dedication to actually work on 170 twinks before they eventually created a need to make lvl 200 twinks all over again.

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I think you're all forgetting why the ranges was merged to begin with.

The old 150-174 had it's glory days when it was running frequently, after a while it stopped running properly. There was hours of queue times on both RK1 and RK2 that often resulted in the match ending because of lack of players when it did start.

Today we still see some of the ranges not run at certain hours, this is due to not having the playerbase needed. If it's changed like this we'll once again see not running battle stations.

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Originally Posted by Pomidor

It make sens that 20 SL perks are even as 34 perks, but 17 perks are not even as 20 perks O.o F***logic.

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It's not only that: you got the ai perks. 170 can do what? 24? At 200 is 30. Those 6 perks can mean a lot

And then there's research. A lot of those that pvp in there have most/all of their research done. At 190 & 200, a lot of good stuff opens up in some professions' lines.

Taking that into effect, the 200s & 214s would only have the difference of SL perks. Some profs would of course be more OP with their certain perk lines, but really would be evened out as a lot of hugely end-game weapons are equip-able at 200. (Keepers with upgraded tara sword, MAs with that purple glowing weapon [forgot name] etc)

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Originally Posted by Rurounin

I think you're all forgetting why the ranges was merged to begin with.

The old 150-174 had it's glory days when it was running frequently, after a while it stopped running properly. There was hours of queue times on both RK1 and RK2 that often resulted in the match ending because of lack of players when it did start.

Today we still see some of the ranges not run at certain hours, this is due to not having the playerbase needed. If it's changed like this we'll once again see not running battle stations.

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Yeah, right now 151-200 BS runs with:
1. The pvpers have shown up, so they either break BS and everyone leaves because they're on there for title farming because the games take 20-30 minutes with them camping the points OR they're all alone inside
2. people bring afkers for each side and it takes 3-5 minutes to 4-cap, then they leave and we're left with hours of waiting for anyone else to show

Dude, you talk about PvP and obviously you have NO clue about this range. I mean, no clue at all. Have you EVER tried to pvp 214 character with 200 twink?! I will tell you whats the they have in comon - its like dueling any 150 with lvl 90 toon, at closest. 214 character will literally wipe floor with any 200 twink (unless it's 200 agent, at this moment), and fight will be one sided 99,999% of time. There is no option (except Agent), that any twink will harm avarge geared 214.

Now, go and try PvP and then talk about it.

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Originally Posted by Pomidor

Dude, you talk about PvP and obviously you have NO clue about this range. I mean, no clue at all. Have you EVER tried to pvp 214 character with 200 twink?! I will tell you whats the they have in comon - its like dueling any 150 with lvl 90 toon, at closest. 214 character will literally wipe floor with any 200 twink (unless it's 200 agent, at this moment), and fight will be one sided 99,999% of time. There is no option (except Agent), that any twink will harm avarge geared 214.

Now, go and try PvP and then talk about it.

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Should stop the QQ, the fact that your epeen and self-esteem are tiny doesn't mean that everyone else is an idiot compared to you. You should go back and rethink your response.

Legendfluff has prooven to have no experience at all. So delusional :S

I might be an idiot. I might be not. Fact is, that I have experience on said level ranges and I did pvped with my 200 twinks vs characters at lvl 214 (twinks, not twinks, gimps). As I said in post earlier, except agent, there is no way that character, pimped to the max, with AR at top 2400ish (enf can get 2700) will harm any 214. There are reasons for that: 1) there are Dreadloch HUD items 2) 14 SL perks 3) 200 more Points in each skill (average) 4) better nanos.

Current level range gives real good fighting chance to 170 character vs 200 ones. This is not particular case for Agent (which, again, is always TOP), but aswell as advies, soldiers, enfs, keepers, MAs (talking about good twinks here, well played by owners).

Secondly: 170 level range is not balanced at all - you won't see 170 engi, MP, NT, Crat, Trader at this level, because they are not usable. Of course, few players managed to get things done, but because of their extreme dedication, experience, and know-how. At 200, in BS - every class means something.

then make it 190-204 like I said. TL6 is TL6.

I think you might consider the lvl ranges for dungeons may be why it was changed. 150 obviously for s10, 151-200 for s7/dark ruins. Makes sense to me why those lvl ranges are there, also makes sense more lvl range = more chance to run.

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Originally Posted by Psikie

I think you might consider the lvl ranges for dungeons may be why it was changed. 150 obviously for s10, 151-200 for s7/dark ruins. Makes sense to me why those lvl ranges are there, also makes sense more lvl range = more chance to run.

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According to your hypothesis:

150 twinks for S10 drive the 101-150 BS
200 twinks for S7 drive the 151-200 BS

and 60 twinks for TotW drive the whatever BS

While this is true to some extent, I would also highlight the fact that that it isn't true in isolation.

For example, if it were true, then we should also see 110 twinks for CoH driving 101-150 BS.

But this simply isn't the case. Perhaps my example is poorly chosen: CoH merely needs a within-level engi to warp in a 220 to insta-splat it, so there really is no need for 110 twinks.

But regardless of the representativeness of my example, I think that people are more likely to build twinks for 'dungeons' if there is proven RoI (S10 being a fantastic example) - and BS simply isn't relevant.

In the case of S7, I would argue that people never built twinks for S7, at least those who knew the value of it. Consider that every piece of loot from S7 must be sold to a player to generate profit, and the main piece of loot has a significantly small actual market (notably, the 151 belt is only good for level 151-190ish toons, is broadly obsolete by 200, and is obsolete at 215 without question), which means that the best you can do is saturate the market but that market saturates in about 10 runs. Considering the enormous potential investment required to build a proper 200 twink, I'd venture to say that most players never recover their investment on a 200 toon UNLESS the value comes from somewhere else.

Realistically, I'd say that 99% of the usage Level 200 "twinks" are getting right now is in BS, not S7.

I can't really speak to 150 BS, but my gut feel is that there are a handful of players who built 150 PVP toons who will fight in BS or tower wars, and it's likely, since hitting AI 20 that they have not stepped foot in S10 since - the vast majority are built for PVM. I know myself that all my S10 toons are PVM toons. They are stuff like crit setup excel keeper, CH monkey, add dmg setup engy, etc. stuff that really doesn't make a strong impact in BS and in all honesty, have no business pretending to be PVP toons.

I do have TL5 PVP toons, and I'd rather play them in 151-200 BS unless it is dominated by 200 - which it often is.

Lately, the proliferation of 200 agents speaks volumes: Agents are OP as hell, and level 200's are significantly stronger than 190's, who are significantly stronger than 170's, who are about as strong as 165's who are slightly stronger than 161's who are incrementally stronger than 154-158's, who are about on par with a well built 150.

So that basically says to me that 150<=154-158<161<=165<=170<<190<<200

Which basically means you're forcing anyone above 150 to square off against really overpowered opponents. Is it any more significant than a 150 pairing off against a 101? Yea, it's just as bad, and that's why I've always stuck to my guns on adding a level discrepancy buff to flesh out key stats such as AR, HP and RS and AAO/AAD to anyone under the max level, which would go a long way to making much lower players capable of participating in the venue without significantly changing the balance.

There are changes to TL4 playfields coming soon, which, according to your hypothesis (regardless of how accurate it is given current playfields) should inevitably produce some number of twinks who will become bored with that playfield and venture into the 101-150 BS (should the level be unchanged).

When that happens, all the 150 PVPers will feast on the TL4's. right?

So now lets revisit the level balance once again.

If the level cap in the TL4 instance is 130, then we should see many 126-130's being created for that purpose. Interestingly, if you now make the 101-149 BS bracket, we'll have made a very good decision. Sure, you can make a 149 PVP toon, but it won't be THAT much stronger than a 130, significantly, you can implant no refined imps, have access to the same tokenboard, and have only marginally better symbiant choices for most profs. Further to that... base stat and IP gain will be maxed around 130 so actual balance between PVM twinks and 149 BS maxed toons will be marginal at best; and AI armour for all players is capped at +21 modifiers which limits the opi fixer/opi agents/trox enfs who can, at 150 squeeze into 244-264 AI armour which adds a fair chunk of AR defence/ HP to already significantly boosted TL range.

Bottom line: It makes the most sense to put TL5's vs TL5's and TL4's against TL4's.

What doesn't make sense is to build BS brackets around playfield levels - that backwards design.

If a BS bracket is underpopulated, then build a playfield for it.

Problem with lower BS 60 and 100 is, which was stated many years ago by many players who had twinks for that lvl range is the BS is too big, and running there without GSF is a PITA, and no close to fun at all.
Aside from that, lvl 100 has nothing live regarding PVM (Coh is not a dungeon, because its rushed by 220's, and S10 is to hard for 100 twinks). We will see how it will change 150 BS when new PF, called The Rack, will be launched.

I've been saying they need to make the BS smaller for years. But not just because the marathon thing... it should also be much much smaller to concentrate fighting so it feels like a team fight.

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Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

According to your hypothesis:

150 twinks for S10 drive the 101-150 BS
200 twinks for S7 drive the 151-200 BS

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Yea that's absolutely correct. In fact other than a bunch of hocus pocus, these are not the droids you are looking for mumbo jumbo you spent waaay to long writing, that is absolutely correct.

If for what ever reason you seem to think the BS at ANY lvl other than 220 is meant for anything other than a temporary distraction to the grind to enlightenment you are wrong. By your own admission creating a "twink" for lower lvl BS is not worth the cost vs reward. So you answered your own question.

Now as far as making more lvl restricted BS, you must not remember the reason the lvl ranges were changed in first place because it pretty much didnt run regularly in those smaller level ranges except 220.
People who have s10 toons are more than likely the same people that are in 150 BS, and same people that 200 BS probably do s7 and Dark Ruins with friends or for farming. As far as usage yea considering BS runs without needing to be teamed it only makes sense those lvl 200 toons probably are "used" there more often. Were you purposely trying to make a rhetorical statement?

Also I would suggest that people with multiple accounts absolutely make twinks for dungeons. What is the point in having 2 of the same prof at 220? Different main hand weapon? I mean you are the min-max king, why would anyone make a 220 with a sub-optimal build a second time around?

I actually said that the return on investment for making a S7 toon is paltry; which is what made me reconsider.

The premise of your argument works, but in practice it doesn't hold true.

E.g. In 2012 S7 launched, many people made level 200 toons to "Do S7" or "help orgmates with S7" or "do a bit of farming"

Those people quickly (or slowly) found out that you could

* put 300 armor on a 200 toon
* put TNH belt on with a crapload of farming support items
* do the same amount of research, albeit more slowly, as a 220

These things aren't free, sure, there is no credit expenditure in grinding LE 70, but man, the amount of time that's required you could probably farm several billion in the same time if you had a reasonable method - and that's just the research.

So the total cost of a level 200 toon is very significant if you are building it properly (of course, not everyone does this).

But that begs the question, why are there so many level 200 toons if the RoI is so abysmally low?

Sure, go farm some Goddess. Go get a power core.

But the market saturates very quickly. Unlike S10 which has a much larger market since the primary farm item in S10 is lead viral bots.

So my point, which you missed, is that I agree that on the outset, your theory is good. But the value of S7 in the long run disproves it. So 151-200 BS must actually be self sustaining due to ... no idea, but maybe perhaps because level 200 is a level that no-one has ever stopped to PVP at since pre-expansion, I guess.

Theorycrafting perfect level ranges won't help if there are simply not enough people to run all that different ranges. One solution to that problem could be to not open up all BS at the same time - like one hour TL7 only, next hour TL6 only, next hour TL5 only etc. (replace TLx with your perfectly crafted range). But I assume people would very much dislike this like "whoa you force me to have a twink in each range to play!" etc.

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Originally Posted by kemi

Theorycrafting perfect level ranges won't help if there are simply not enough people to run all that different ranges. One solution to that problem could be to not open up all BS at the same time - like one hour TL7 only, next hour TL6 only, next hour TL5 only etc. (replace TLx with your perfectly crafted range). But I assume people would very much dislike this like "whoa you force me to have a twink in each range to play!" etc.

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In this way a lot of players would miss out on pvp because not everyone has the same time to play. For example, if tl7 BS was open, but I'm not at home to play that hour then I would put on sad panda mask if I had to wait for particular hour when my time is limited.