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I thought we'd make a thread for feedback on each nanoline. This is intented for the devs to look through and just include our personal views on the nanolines. Please try to keep it clean and tidy and free from arguments. :)
Please use Kaz Dr. Nano doc thread for information and general discussions :)
Have at it!
I'll start.
Totally Subjective feedback on each Nanoline
Init Debuffs: 186
I don't quite understand the change to make the unbreakable debuffs breakable. All they needed was better description so new players know right away which are breakable and which aren't. The lowered duration would have been enough to prevent pet abuse.
Slight init debuff increase on UBT not really making a difference. Surprised it has a higher stacking order then the crat debuffs.
The duration change could be better resolved imo. I would have prefered different durations for pvm and pvp. say 45s pvp and up to 2 minutes pvm. Too many tools of docs getting shorted duration already and having to recast ubt (on multiple mobs) that often is adding to that in pvm.
New Line: Special Effect Nuke
I don't see much use to it. Call it Gimmick Effect Nuke instead. Wrack and Ruins had it's use for specialized evade builds but that was also due to it having a longer duration. With so many other short duration buffs/debuffs to keep running and the cooldown being just faster then the duration a 11 second duration on a defense debuff doesn't cut it.
The Nanoresist debuff has some better use but it also suffers from the 10s duration/11 duration crap. Also it comes with a 100% NR check which makes it harder to land then the new C line dot which it would be supposed to help landing.
New Epsilon purge... Imo still trash the idea for docs and fixers or reduce it to <5 NCU so it only affects dof/cocoon and some auras. All the new OSBs with 4h duration will make pvp even more dependant on OSBs and removing some of these just sucks and imo will get more hate to us then benefits.
The damage of each nuke is lolworthy. Bit too much Micromanagement.
New Line: Base Nuke
The name is misleading. Base suggests being used as a stable basis for damage and these nukes certainly aren't going to be used as a damage base. The nanocosts are way to high to be spammed and with those costs it's not effective to use them when the target isn't under triple dot. At most you get out 2 nukes before you have to refresh the C line dot at least and coupled with the perks that cancel dots and the nanodrain they have to be used very carefully.
They also clash badly with the mistreatment perk that cancels dots and if you wanna use them heavily they encourage using the lowest QL A and B dot to conserve nano.
DOT line A: 6 & DOT Line B: 7
Slightly reduced cast times and removal of the cast time cap is nice. Reduces on the annoyance factor. I don't really get the reason to increase the damage but add 1 second to the tick time. The resulting dps and total damage are about the same so the 3s tick rate instead of 2 was the only reason?
I'm assuming the slight decrease in nanocost is to encourage using high ql A and B line dots instead of the lower level counterparts but with the huge nanocosts on everything else and the heavy reliance on keeping dots up and dots being canceled by damage perks it's imo not enough to encourage using high ql A/B line dots outside of multiple mobs enviroment... A scenario where the A and B line would still do worse then they do now.
DOT Line C: 582
Making the C line PVP dot available in pvp and changing the entire line to be a short term, fast damage while maintaining same total damage dot is a good idea. Doubling the nanocost of the old pvp dot or when compared to the old C line dot more then doubling the cost is a bit overkill imo. Remember that we have to cast it every 10 seconds to use the base nuke effectively and to use doctor perks. 3820 Nano every 10 seconds is a WHOLE lot even with 50% NCR. And it's not the only high nanocost nano that has to be refreshed every few seconds.
Especially when coupled with the Base Nuke which requires the C line dot to be remotely efficient the nanodrain is HUGE. And that's on top of high nanocosting heals.
This is also another nano that clashes badly with the doc perks because you really don't want to use a 3820 Nanocost nano to use a perk that instantly removes it.
In multi mob scenarios this nano also does a lot worse then previously doing same damage over time for waaaaay higher cost but seeing as the A and B dot alone are usually hard enough to keep running on 3+ mobs on their own I'd say it doesn't matter and better single target damage is a good trade off.
New Line: LE Nemesis Nanoprograms
Uhm. K. Another 750 damage dot for total 7500 pvm damage and recharge of 2 minutes. The dot on pets seems quite useless. Are there any pets with under 7500 HP this will kill?
Not really a impressive nano but who can complain about a decent extra damage perk every 120 seconds?
Complete Heal: 282
Changing the CH to Local Cooldowns is a good change imo. The Change to % based heals for the Improved CH/A&O is intriguing. How will Heal eff debuffs affect % based healing? Say the soldiers -100% heal eff debuff (ignoring RI - just for reference).
The updated regular heals may make up for the loss of "fast" CH at TL5.. remains to be seen.
New Line: Single Target Heal
Sl heals - 40% Cutdown in Healing Power and 30% increase in Nanocosts. No big surprises here.
Bit annoyed the cast times haven't been changed and still prevent full def usage. Us full def docs curently rely on the 216 heal to have speed and more or less enough healing to keep us alive. With the nerf on healing power that won't cut it anymore so we moved even further from away full def capabilities with this change.
The added in between heals are good imo. Quite powerfull actually.. 2100-2520 is really a lot pre tl7. Well pvm wise at least.. in pvp it has to offset the loss of CH. But I can imagine it working well.
New Line: Team Heal
Holy Moly Nanocosts! Removing HP buff (Team LC) alltogether and removing team hots to keep team members topped up / alive will force us to use the team heals more often. And instead of increasing it by 30% like single target heals the Nanocosts are more then quadrupled? I understand the intend of making them cost more then single target heals but that's a bit overkill.
Short Term HOT Line: 12
Quick High Yield Hot. Useful to cast in anticipation of incoming damage. I like the idea.
I don't quite like loosing team hots alltogether for it though as healing over time is the only passive defense docs have and changing every hot altogether turns that part of our passive defenses into a quite active part again. It's also yet another timer to micromanage on our short short short duration buff/debuffs/dots and yet another big nanodrain to keep going.
With only 25s duration they at least won't screw up lowbie pvp too much with 0 NCU cost and no level locks. Scaling needs to be adjusted too somewhat as there are no level locks on them at all and they are cast able quite early. (TL5 and 7 using same nano?)
Doctor Temporary Health Buffs: 185
The HP buff from our heals moved onto Life channeler and Life Channeler in turn turned into a 1 Person only buff with short duration and added nanodrain. I don't like it. Doctors were more then just healers it was about maximizing the teams chance of survival. Team HP buffs were a part of it and even the old LC was cast able on multiple team members and I regularly did so before Team LC. For many AoE Nukes encounters it was a elementary part of the raid too.
Also the recharge really needs to be faster then the duration. If you only want it on one target then make it recharge 60s duration 70s at least so you don't have to stop doing anything and wait for the countdown to reach zero to prevent sitting there without your 6k extra HP.
Health Buff And HoT Combo*
*shrug* I would have preferred it to be an Aura. This is also the chance to increase the HP the team can be buffed again after removing TLC so I'd like to see an increase in the HP here. Take it from the Temporary HP buff if you have too. Again... this helps on the passive defense which we are lacking.
Heal Delta Buffs: 203
*shrug*
Nano Resist Buffs: 204
NR shifted from Self init buff to NR buff ..Why? Why remove the NR from the self buff and add it to the Target cast able buff? Don't we have enough NR stuff and powerfull OSBs in the game? Why make it even better?
The increase in NCU is to offset the temp HP and Hot not using NCU anymore I take it?
Initiative Buffs: 152
Loss of nano whatever. Loss of NR... See comment on NR buff.
The increase in NCU is to offset the temp HP and Hot not using NCU anymore I take it?
Divest and Plunder Resistance: 287
The old vaccines were mostly useless but turning it into a 4h buff? I really hate meeting traders but % based resistances really are a bad thing in this game. But in the long run this will be more helpful for soling pocketbosses then against traders.
New Line: Emergency Nano Regain
Funky Gimick. Will be hated in duels.
Fear Resist and Reduction: 901
Still utterly useless.
Strength Buffs: 156 & New Line: Stamina Buffs
Again why? For the sake of changing things? Were the addional 20 Stamina you could get on top of behe really too much? I will enjoy not having to team people anymore though!
Treatment and First Aid Buffs: 190
4h Duration! Yey! Great!
New Line: Grid
30s Grid. Oh fixers are gonna love this.
Resume
There's a lot of Micromanagement in these changes. Handling the debuffs and dots (60s/30s/30s/10s) timers and refreshing accordingly using the base nukes in the 10s duration the C line is running as well as timing the perks to fire in between and preferably not cancel the dots before their time is nearing its end (again C line dot) while keeping track of the 60s timer on your hp buff and refreshing your hots every 25s as well as keeping track the HP bars and using heals/teamheals plus possibly keeping track of the timers on the CH / Heal perks / items...
Doc always has been a highly micromanagement and attention intensive profession... even my shade plays relaxing in comparison. I don't really know if we want more micro management on our toolsets. I thought one idea in the balance was to cut down on the micro management with all the buffs getting a 4h duration now.
Secondly I'm surprised that not only the heals gotten the nanocost increase but the offense also gotten a huge increase in their nanocosts. It's not like we didn't run out of nano dotting (or nuking in pvp) before. Dotting mutiple mobs at once is gonna be a thing of the past with these changes. Versatility was a strength of docs. Looking at these changes, their nano cost and their even heavier reliance on landing stuff quickly I see more and more reasons to play nanomage or loose. The lower overall nanopool and NCR will hurt soli and Opi already and trox even worse.
Last but not least... There is a heavier focus on Nanocasting in these documents now. Pushing docs to more casting (not the castbar we were in nanorecharge 100% anyway but the reliance on it) is fine. But 2 main problems from our concern list that directly relate to nano casting haven't been adressed. We lack Nano AR to land staff reliably and the 10s nuke isn't viable in the current state. We lack the full def capabilities to resist being shut down from casting.
I'm going to give my totally subjective feedback on the doctor document from the point of view from a tl6 doctor. Starting from an overall look and then going into details more.
Some general observations
Nanocost:
The nanocost of nanos is always a function of the requirements to use the nano, dependant on the nanoline it is in.
Left is nanoskill = right is nanocost:
Init debuffs 1 = 1
Special effect Nukes 1 = 2
Base Nuke 1 = 1.5
Dot A & B 1.5 = 1
Dot C 1 = 2
LE Nemesis 1 = 1
Fear resist 1.5 = 1
Complete healing 1.5 = 1
Single healing 1 = 1
Teal healing 1 = 1.5
Short hot 1.5 = 1
Long duration health buffs: No direct relation since the current devs didn't meddle with the numbers. If there are changes in the future, it will probably be to 1.5 = 1 since all pre-combat buffs have that relation.
Short duration health buff 1.5 = 1
Str/stam buffs 1.5 = 1
Healdelta 1.5 = 1
SFA 1.5 = 1
D&P resistance 1.5 = 1
NR buffs 1.5 = 1
Init buffs 1.5 = 1
Gridding nanos 1.5 = 1
One obvious problem that the above relation between nanoskills and nanocost has, is that the nanocost goes up linearly with increasing skilllevels, while nanodelta increases exponentially till a hardcap is reached. Suppose that nano usage and nano recovery are in ballance at the level that the hardcap is reached, that would then mean that before and after reaching the hardcap, there will be a nano recovery shortage. Hopefully the nanodelta mechanics are being changed since this pre-SL mechanic was never meant to exist with the post-SL numbers, but nothing is announced yet as far as I know.
Another problem evident from the doctor document is that while the relation between nanoskill requirements and nanocost is linear, the relation between nanoskills (and thus also nanocost) and effects are more or less exponential, most likely based on the level that FC expects them to be casted. This makes it so that low level nanos are very nano inefficient and that inefficient anomalies exist between the transition levels from RK to SL levels. An example: C dot: lowest dot does 250 damage for 300 nano, highest dot does 10000 damage for 3832 nano, not even counting the capped cost that the highlevel with have. The C dot Mutagenic Illness breaks the trend and is very nano inefficient.
Anyhow, for midlevels (tl5, tl6 and early tl7) I expect nanomages to have a huge advantage because of being able to get capped nanodelta ticks with less compromises than the other breeds, on top of a higher -cost cap. For my tl6 doctor the high nanocosts also mean that it becomes more tempting to drop pistols, since shiny pistol and nanodelta conflict and there is no shiny pistol in support symbs (this might get changed). I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect that when I lose pistol in RW, I would not be able to keep my dread pistol 100% while also maintaining capped -cost (without that Tara hood anyhow). This could be solved by taking advantage of the 4h durations, without having to look for otherwise redundant professions: backyard buffing. FC seems to be pushing dual accounts across the board anyhow, so I might just as well give in and go with the program.
Button smashing:
Separate recharge and cooldowns on nanos, combined with shorter duration nanos will require a lot more attention. This was one of the nice things about CH: you heal and then you can safely chat in org/team for the next 7seconds, I'm going to miss that :)
Nanorange:
The new minimum nanorange on the nanos is 30m. For my tl6 doctor this means that I will be able to acquire additional ncu while maintaining max 40m range: at the least being able to change active s7 to passive s7 memory, maybe even dropping +range in decks completely. NCU is not a problem on live and it will apparently continue to be not a problem to fit in all buffs that matter, selfbuffed.
Casttimes:
Casttimes are left mostly unchanged, which means that at tl6 I will continue to be able to comfortably cast most buffs on full def, unlike tl7 doctors. Important exceptions are the level 150 and 180 A&B dots which both have 7s cast time (no gradual increase in casttimes, just an arbitrary number picked by FC) and capped cast times are removed (except from gridding), making C dot possible to use in fast teams against trash mobs.
Playmodes:
The nanocosts and overlapping cooldowns of the different nanos will mean that I will have 2 general "playmodes", sustained by nano regeneration.
Available nano for the tl6 doctor:
About 10k nanopool.
Nanodelta: about 120 nano every 2 seconds: 60nps
Genius: 1200 nano every 90 seconds: 13.3nps
(possible, but probably not the best perk investment choice: Notum Spring, changed NM perk: 3000 nano every 120 seconds)
ql220 Sophisticated Nano Kit: 1050 nano, recharge 36s: 29nps
ql220 Advanced Nano Recharger: 2300 nano, recharge 18s: 128nps
ql150 Battle Prepared Nano Recharge Kit: 602 nano, recharge 25s: 26nps
Out of combat: about 230nps or 13800npm
In combat: about 128nps or 7680npm
The above is a theoretical max (I wouldn't be able to play like that for a longer duration) with easily acquirable nanokits and rechargers.
Healing mode:
Casting combinations of single, team, complete, over time healing and short health buff. Init debuffing when appropiate and using dots when I can skip a heal.
A full healing mode cycle on a level 200 doctor:
A quick estimate of the max possible healing I could be able to do in about 1 minute:
1*Short health buff (1s recharge), 3*Complete heal (3s), 3*short hot (6s), 15*single heal (36s), 10*team heal (56s recharge).
Base hps: 1*2604 + 3*10001 + 15*3947 + 10*2310 + short hot for 160hps = 124512 hpm
With 25 heal%: 153240 hpm
Base nps: 1*597 + 3*467 + 15*897 + 10*1575 + 3*609 = 33030 npm
With -55% cost: 14863 npm
When compared to the out of combat theoretically out of combat nano regeneration, these numbers lie very close. It seems possible to sustain healing close to this for quite some time. The possible healing is far above that of any other profession. Even though the cooldown on CH is increased, overall healing is still better than before imo (sustained is somewhat lower, while burst healing increased a lot, not everyone has the hp to take full advantage of the CH).
When under attack, the nano regeneration is half of what is needed to sustain this kind of healing, so skipping heals is in order, until the wonderful doc ring procs.
Damage mode
4 different scenario's dependant on the type of mob being fought and the kill speed of the team.
Real fast (instakills):
Alternating top B and A dot. Everything else is not worth the nano, including the nuke.
Damage -700 with 5s cooldown and -500 also with 5s cooldown. 200dps
Nano usage: 0.45*(791)*2 = 142nps
Very fast (I'm supposing it lives at least 3seconds):
Top B dot, top A dot, lowest C dot, top nuke. C dot is too nano inefficient here: use lowest possible.
Damage: -700*2-500*2-25*2-(1500:3000) = 4050:5550 = avg -4800 with 4 seconds recharge, 7 seconds for a full cycle = 686dps
Nano usage: 0.45*(791+791+300+1148) = 1363 = 195nps
Again sustainable without agro, unsustainable with agro, until the ring procs.
Medium fast (I'm supposing it lives at least 11seconds):
Top C dot (second to the top, the top one for tl6 is not worth using in pve), top B dot, top A dot, top nuke.
Damage: -700*4-500*4-800*5-(1500:3000)*3 = avg -15550, 15 seconds for a full cycle = 1036dps
Nano usage: 0.45*(791+791+2084+1148) = 2166 = 144nps
Once again sustainable without agro, unsustainable with agro, until the ring procs.
Slow (any fight that lasts longer than 32 seconds):
Top B dot, top A dot, Top C dot and nukes.
Damage: -700*10-500*10-800*15-(1500:3000)*8 = avg -42000, 35 seconds for a full cycle = 1200dps
Nano usage: 0.45*(791+791+3*2084+8*1148) = 7658 = 219nps
Once again sustainable without agro, unsustainable with agro, until the ring procs. The C dot and nuke weigh heavier in this scenario, resulting in a higher nanocost per second.
Mistreatment usage
At Embrace 8, mistreatment does "If Not (A & B & C) Embrace 8: Damage: -3778..-4155" or "If A & B & C Embrace 8: Damage: -5667..-6233 Terminate A,B,C DoTs". With a 1 second execution time I look up on this perk as a finisher: doing dot & nuke cycle and when dots are running out (or if the mob is low enough on hp), then I would execute this perk. Starting another dot cycle or going to another mob afterwards.
I exceeded the 15000 character limit, so putting it in 2 posts.
Totally Subjective feedback on each Nanoline, focusing on tl6
Init Debuffs: 186
Nanoskills: unchanged, no new ones added with higher requirements.
Nanocost: perfectly doable.
Duration: I personally don't mind the 60second duration. On live the main reason I dread recasting ubt in fight, is because I'll be in recharge afterwards. With separate recharge and cooldown timers, this is not an issue any longer.
Effect: No more spamming decreptitude in pvp :p I don't mind the removal of the breakable dots, in pve they broke too fast from shield damage, in pvp they were OP imo. I personally don't see a reason to further improve ubt, FC could just as well have added new -init debuffs for tl7, leaving the old RK ones roughly the same, although as tl6 I would benefit from this, a lot :p
Other:With the change to a separate recharge and cooldown system, the healing improvement for tl6 and the stress being put on nano usage, I suspect that it will often be better not to init debuff, to increase the chance that the doctor ring procs.
New Line: Special Effect Nuke - Wrack and Ruin
Nanocost:
Duration: Annoyingly short. A duration of 11seconds with a cooldown of 10seconds is also worth a laugh. If FC wants it to be possible to maintain the -200NR debuff, giving some more leeway would be nice: duration 15s with 10s cooldown.
Effect: an additional -100 attack rating would make evade doctors at tl6 very viable in pve, but because of the sacrifices nano recovery would suffer, making it not an option for me.
Other:
New Line: Special Effect Nuke - Epsilon Purge
Duration: Annoyingly short.
Effect: The AO nano and (definitely) the perk system were not made to cope with nanos such as this. In an unmodified gui/chat it is nigh impossible to know fast what buffs you just lost (if there is a message at all), nor will the person that gave you those buffs be aware that you lost them. But I don't expect that much whining about this one, the complaints will mostly be directed at the fixer version of it.
New Line: Special Effect Nuke - Advanced Instinctive Control
Effect: Nifty.
Other: Nano resistance check is too high: generally speaking defensive debuffs should be easier to land than the nanos you want to land after using them.
New Line: Base Nuke
Nanocost:
4.36 damage per nanopoint if A,B&C: A bit too high for a nano that has to be cast every 4 seconds.
1.35 damage per nanopoint if not A,B&C: Way too high nanocost for the effect in the case of no dots running.
Other: The real base part (no dots running) is way too weak.
DOT line A
Nanocost: 14 damage per nanopoint. Very good ratio.
Duration:
Other: Either the duration of the dot is 28s, or there will be 16 ticks. I hope FC isn't going to skip the first tick. The same applies to all dots and hots.
DOT Line B
Nanocost: 19.7 damage per nanopoint. Even better ratio (the simple linear relation of nanoskills and nanocost is to blame).
Duration:
DOT Line C
Nanocost: 4.26 damage per nanopoint, for the second highest before SL levels. Way too high for a dot imo, it should be somewhere between the nuke and the longer duration A and B dots.
Duration: No objections from me here.
New Line: LE Nemesis Nanoprograms
Effect: Nasty.
Other: I'd rather that FC drops the whole nemesis idea. Giving every profession 1 nano so they could have easy kill against a few other professions is a stupid concept.
Complete Heal: 282
Nanocost: The most nano efficient healing method. When in dps mode this is probably the in between healing I would toss out.
Other: I personally hope that huge taunt in SL is not taken away, because even though it is an anomaly, it gives doctors an extra dimension there (and no, I'm not talking about OST).
New Line: Single Target Heal
Nanocost: 7.5hp per nano at heal% 25% and -cost -55%.
Other: All the redundant intermediate heals are still redundant, noone is going to learn a new heal every time he's gained 30 more BM, certainly when the next heal is almost exactly the same as the last. These could be diversified within the nanoline.
New Line: Team Heal
Nanocost:3.33hp per nano when healing a single target: you need atleast 3 people in team requiring healing for this to be more efficient than the single heal. I find this ratio to be fair.
Short Term HOT Line: 12
Nanocost:11.9hp per nano at heal% 0% and -cost -55%. Seems a decent relation to me. If heal% were to work on hots, it would be nearly precisely twice as efficient as the single heal, which might have been the intent.
Doctor Temporary Health Buffs: 185
Nanocost: 10.2hp per nano, very efficient extra heal.
Duration: The same problem as Wrank and Ruin. If a doctor is meant to run this constantly on a target, give some more room for error & lag.
Effect: The health buff is very nice at tl6.
Health Buff And HoT Combo*
Nanocost:
Duration: Silly 4 hour duration to encourage multiple accounts. Fortunately the doctor has to be actually at the scene for most of the toolset to work, not every profession is this fortunate.
Other: An extension of of the pre-SL nanos would still be nice.
Heal Delta Buffs: 203
Effect: It's a hot.
Nano Resist Buffs: 204
Effect: Nice.
Initiative Buffs: 152
Effect: Also nice.
Other: Very low nanoskill requirements on the apf "endgame" nano, yet a practical level lock to 215. I'd bump up the top one further and leave room for a future intermediate one.
Divest and Plunder Resistance: 287
Effect: Considering a duration of 15s on the hostile part, I'd say these are OP at the high levels. At low levels (fp) traders will still have way higher weapon- and nanoskills than every other profession ("balance" :rolleyes:), so the 20% resistance might mean that you get lucky and that you can alpha the trader first.
New Line: Emergency Nano Regain
Duration: Long cooldown, offset by an extremely good effect.
Effect: Very good.
Fear Resist and Reduction: 901
Duration: 1s recharge, no cooldown? An error?
Effect: It gives the possibility to remove the gimmick fear nanos, provided that you weren't feared yourself. Better than not having any fear removers at all, but still odd.
Strength Buffs: 156 & New Line: Stamina Buffs
Other: Nerfing twinking somewhat and further simplifying the game.
Treatment and First Aid Buffs: 190
Duration: One of the few nanos where I don't mind the 4h duration, since this one is generally only used for twinking purposes, not to make the difference in pve/pvp.
New Line: Grid
Duration: 30s execution time, compared to 20s for fastest fixer gridding one (or 5s for the "emergency" nano which will put the fixer at 1hp and comes with a long cooldown). All 3 (30s, 20s or 5s) gridding nanos are out of combat nanos, therefor the execution time doesn't really matter that much to me, it's just slightly less idle time.
Just a comment on this. In all my testing, which I did quite a lot of specifically against PB's, those resistance nanos did not help against those debuffs from mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by XenonDe
Slightly OT but they do help against the skilldrain of PBs but not against the init debuffs or dots. However PBs cast them that often that you don't notice much difference unless you're sitting on full def and even full def + vaccine will still incour in them landing a lot. It makes it easier on the removers though.
@Topic
I'd like to see more of you post your lists! Come on don't leave me looking silly here!
Exactly, pretty sure those are procs from mobs, but if you really want to try i guess perking nr8 on any toon to check would help :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Malosar