[TL5] Needs & Wants

More AR for myself and my bot, with shorter cast times and longer durations on almost all of our nano's.

I would like a new bot for TL4-6 that's got insane AR and fly's so it wont get stuck on that damn teleporter step in BS.

Could we maybe get +50% ME on pistol instead of +25% :D

On a more serious note, it would be good to push for the pistol perks to remain a 80% check, with Adv being removed from that group and given a professional pistol perk line of their own, with the higher defence check. This would be of benefit not only to Engies but all the support professions that use this line.

I'm looking forward to seeing how effective the new changes to Creative Mind will be, at the level I'll be able to perk upto (as a 174) it doesn't seem like it will be too hot. Anyone experience of Medallion at this low level?

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Originally Posted by sannz

Tl5 engis still need new toys :)

Shiny new doggy, Slayer with wicked blades, blockers that do the blockering and such. You know you want em too ^^

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Yeah baby. I'm actually expecting a hefty nerf to blocker usefulness after people are forced to move away from AS, so something to alleviate the issue would be really cool. Coon already got a nerf with perks matching damage types with weapon...

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Originally Posted by Tanana

I'm looking forward to seeing how effective the new changes to Creative Mind will be, at the level I'll be able to perk upto (as a 174) it doesn't seem like it will be too hot. Anyone experience of Medallion at this low level?

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If it's landable, it's very useful. Trust me. Currently it just can't be landed all that well even when setup for it.

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Originally Posted by eroz_c

If it's landable, it's very useful. Trust me. Currently it just can't be landed all that well even when setup for it.

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It would be extremely useful on evaders, but it never lands on them as it is now, barely lands on anyone at all. And changing the def check from NR to something else means it won't land on evaders. I'd say FC could just lower the NR check or change the attack skill since limber and dof make people practically immune to a tl5 engi for their duration. And on non evaders it just doesn't make any difference (if I can perk them without medallion). Not to mention that NR1 is pretty much a must at that level and it lowers the already gimped AR even further.

uhm... erm... bump?

Sure why not. (Ps I am wanting the lower levels to gain stuff so)

*looks at engineer nano documents* mumbles something *hovers over the delete button of my tl5 engi*

ok, 50 more AR, but other than that... i'm feeling somewhat buttraped here. Sure, the pets might be able to do some dmg after the rebalance, but how am I to survive long enough for them to arrive and do dmg?

Guess it depends how much more AR we can get.

As far as I'm concerned my engie never used his pets and relied upon the low def check on pistol perks and AS from the craphander.

With 1850 AR he was fairly competative.

Now if they nerf the def check on perks and nerf AS then it might be better to go for an all out AR set up. I'm sure with the extra 50 AR we can get well over 2k and maybe it might keep us in with a shout to be effective. Even though I don't like what their doing with our nano's I'm sure switching to tradeskills for them will save us a bit of ip atleast to spend bulking up our defences.

Never seen my engie as a 'good' tl5 alt, it's fun when you shouldn't do well but manage to.

You dont remember (or pretend you dont) about medallion changes into AR vs NR or whatever, eh?

Ive made an interesting (IMHO) suggestion in nano discussion:

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Originally Posted by Ciekafsky

BTW there is nothing that could help lower levels in pvp. Still the very bottom of food chain :( Make all spec blockers block exactly same abount of specials (5/2?) but with HP caps limit so if special blocker has X HP limit and your HP is high enough to exceed it blocker would block a hit only up to HP limit. Example:

You have 10k hp and using low ql blockers that block only up to 1k hp. You are hit, 1k is blocked but remaining 2k hit you if only special is strong enough.

Tl7s should have unlimited blockers.
Tl6s 2,5k hp limit
Tl5 1,5k hp
Tl4 1k hp
Tl3 750 hp,
Tl2 500.

Its very hard to understand why amount of blocked attack changes while for most of the professions number of possible specials doesnt and recharges are capped at the beginning (brawl, dimach, sneak), at tl2 (fast attack), tl3 (AS on agents), tl4 - tl5 (as on faster weapons, fa on solds).

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But it was totally lost in general trolling. TL;DR old version of absorbs working on specials only but without ability to exploit low hp setups.

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Originally Posted by Ciekafsky

[....]


But it was totally lost in general trolling. TL;DR old version of absorbs working on specials only but without ability to exploit low hp setups.

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As always, most of the good posts in a going thread are lost in trolling.


Disclaimer: The following is based on the information we have currently available. Nothing more, nothing less.



What I just can not understand is this: survivability in the tl5 pvp range is already slim, current blockers are borderline effective and only really provide protection vs MAs who do not swap (those do not exist/are pure pvm'ers and thus do not count) and anyone using SPS/Arbalest/Zastaba. And the folks who use those AS weaps can usually last long enough to kill the 3 blockers and start killing you *with* the specials. It is a blessing that most of those guys can not self their weaps without swapping/OBs.

And now, they want to further reduce our survivability by further reducing the amount of spec blockers we have.
The current situation is that those 3 spec blockers pretty much eat the special hits of an alpha, thus weakening it, or delaying it till until the 3 specs are eaten up thus giving you time to initiate counter measures, such as Freak Shield, BioCocoon, currently AoE blinds or just running like hell and praying that that dark blue runspeed will let you get away long enough for a tool to become available again.

What is especially annoying is that due to our evades status, we have to rely on coon vs most opponents that can put up a decent fight. And at the same time, one decent AS/FA/SA can cap through that making it pretty much useless in one special.
The 60/3 blocker rotation was viable in the times where tl5 engi evades were decent compared to the ar professions, namely sols, ar agents, and ofc enforcers. The times before the absorb nerf that was resulted by the overly abuse of very-low-hp-setups, mostly used by NTs and by pet professions in towers/city pvp. In the time when most dmg perks actually had a fixed dmg type instead of using the one that the weapon in your right hand uses. In those times, bio cocoon offered you real protection for those 30 sec duration. Unless ofc someone designed their setup around one dmg type just to mess with those coon'ing folks.

But those times are gone, no more. The evades pretty much died shortly after the release of LE as AR boosts rose higher than def boosts. Shortly after came the absorb nerf, together with the reflect nerf. "Capping hits" did not hurt as much back then (up to 42% (5+24+13) with proc or 29% static dmg reduction after pvp caps). And not too long after that came the adaptation of perk dmg types. Which made absorbs utterly useless.

In terms of effectivity regarding absorbs I guess at tl5 we have it a bit better than at tl7, where pretty much only 4 dmg types are left. Poison, Projectile, Energy and Melee. At tl5 we still have Radiation, Fire and to some extent Cold to add to this list. Not that this is doing us too much good though.


All this brings me to the big question: How is a tl5 engineer to survive in pvp? You plan on improving pets, giving us tools to remove debuffs on them. That is nice, and we always asked for it. We thank you for wanting to give us these. But we need to be able to survive as well.

The only way left to me to read you on this issue: when someone attacks you, pop coon, pray those 2 spec blockers will take care of capped hits that would eat up all of your coon and *really pray* that you can kill your target in those 30secs.
Oh, you want to be able to fight another target after that? Though luck, NTs using NBGuard were getting buttraped like this for years, its your turn now.
Sorry about the choice of words, but I can find no more fitting ones.


Either there is some nice secret dmg-to-pet or special-dmg-to-pet tool coming up, or sub TL7 engineers will have a serious problem.


Are atrox 2s HD max HP setups with virtually no AR and no self killing power (AS getting nerfed, right?) really the way you envision the future engis at tl5? Because that's what the data available to us looks like.

[/wall of text]

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Originally Posted by sannz

*looks at engineer nano documents* mumbles something *hovers over the delete button of my tl5 engi*

ok, 50 more AR, but other than that... i'm feeling somewhat buttraped here. Sure, the pets might be able to do some dmg after the rebalance, but how am I to survive long enough for them to arrive and do dmg?

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I wouldn't be so hasty to write of engis at TL5 just yet. I see alot of the general game changes outside of the engi nano document as rather encouraging. I wouldn't say it makes engis premiere Tl5 twinks, but the things I'm seeing make me think that engis are getting relatively better.

I'm waiting for the trader document to be released before I'm further convinced of how TL5 PVP will be affected.

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Originally Posted by Obtena

I wouldn't be so hasty to write of engis at TL5 just yet. I see alot of the general game changes outside of the engi nano document as rather encouraging. I wouldn't say it makes engis premiere Tl5 twinks, but the things I'm seeing make me think that engis are getting relatively better.

I'm waiting for the trader document to be released before I'm further convinced of how TL5 PVP will be affected.

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Read my post above. You will understand it then.
The nano changes we have seen so farm more than warrant it. Other than the announce nerf of AS, to which there are no informations available so far, I can only see my defensive tools decreased and weakened.
The problem with this is that our current toolset at tl5 already is lacking.

Think of your enfo. Now take away HD, reduce the mongo hot and lower the nr from rage by a fair amount. Then come here again ;)

pvp isnt the only thing thats going to get hit at tl5. The removal of blinds will reduce the usefulness of engineers while leveling up and s10 (and s7?) ones will be in a tough spot to survive.

All in all, i agree with what sannz said

If anything I'd have thought that they'd strength the AoE blind, atleast reduce the 100% break on attack to more like 75%.

I'm not overly concerned about this however as I play my TL5 engie very offensivley. I'd give up blinds and coon for more alpha and damage any day.

Couple of things that I'm considering are:

How good the pets will actually be? It will be nice to actually use them at TL5.

How much of a nerf AS will get? If it's big then I'll be going for a pure pistol set up to try and push AR.

How hard will it be to actually land perks in practice? With the new key binding we might be able to get the jump on a few professions if we can get in before they raise their defences.

How much use will a perk like medallion become? I know this perk line is having pistol added to it which makes it attractive for me but will the debuff become a necessary perk to have?

i agree with sannz.

if they remove blind then we wont have no survivability anymore at all in pvm and pvp.