Agent pvm-damage stagnates after tl5 and up

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Originally Posted by Psikie

Silly...How about I say mid range to all toons. I'm sure even you trying to be snarky would never say Agents are bottom DD 100% of time.

However as suggested earlier fp crat and grab some pets for extra DD. Maybe also re-read some of the posts above and understand pvp setup agents can VASTLY differ from pvm setup agents.

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Double post, but it's worth it.

An Agent using FP Crat cannot charm as high level mobs as a Crat.

As such, why bother with an Agent who is trying as hard as possible when you could simply get a Crat who would do more damage, offer more value to a team, and be able to get better pets when available?

What about when pets aren't available? How are Agents using FP Crat supposed to compete with Black Bot + Carlo?

Basically, this all boils down to the AGENT SPECIFIC TOOLSET being far too weak to be supported by the (currently) comparatively weak FPs. Before SL, the holes in the weak Agent specific toolset were completely covered by different FPs. Now, because of massive powercreep and FP being neglected, the current FPs are like having any TL5 profession at 220.

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Originally Posted by sultryvoltron

Double post, but it's worth it.

An Agent using FP Crat cannot charm as high level mobs as a Crat.

As such, why bother with an Agent who is trying as hard as possible when you could simply get a Crat who would do more damage, offer more value to a team, and be able to get better pets when available?

What about when pets aren't available? How are Agents using FP Crat supposed to compete with Black Bot + Carlo?

Basically, this all boils down to the AGENT SPECIFIC TOOLSET being far too weak to be supported by the (currently) comparatively weak FPs. Before SL, the holes in the weak Agent specific toolset were completely covered by different FPs. Now, because of massive powercreep and FP being neglected, the current FPs are like having any TL5 profession at 220.

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I think the real issue is probably going to be other profession damage being too high rather than agent damage being too low at this point. A crat without pets should not do more damage than an agent without pets. A crat without pets will outdamage an agent without pets.

Lets say an agent does 200k DPM while he can get pets doing 100k DPM, and a crat does 250k DPM while his pets do 150k DPM. Just random numbers for the sake of argument of course. If instead the crat does 150k DPM while his pets are doing 150k DPM, then you have an equivalence between a mimic crat agent and a typical crat's damage.


Not exactly an easy task to balance, but I do believe a shift down for professions like shades, engineers, and crats is needed at this point. As it stands, I would almost argue there is only one DD profession with three sub-damage dealers.

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Originally Posted by Gatester

I think the real issue is probably going to be other profession damage being too high rather than agent damage being too low at this point. A crat without pets should not do more damage than an agent without pets. A crat without pets will outdamage an agent without pets.

Lets say an agent does 200k DPM while he can get pets doing 100k DPM, and a crat does 250k DPM while his pets do 150k DPM. Just random numbers for the sake of argument of course. If instead the crat does 150k DPM while his pets are doing 150k DPM, then you have an equivalence between a mimic crat agent and a typical crat's damage.


Not exactly an easy task to balance, but I do believe a shift down for professions like shades, engineers, and crats is needed at this point. As it stands, I would almost argue there is only one DD profession with three sub-damage dealers.

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Well, that's basically what I just said but in different terms.

An Agent by itself does too little damage compared to other professions. This gap SHOULD be closed by various FPs, but it is not.

There are three potential solutions, buff Agents, buff FPs, nerf other professions.

The best solution would probably be a fairly hefty castration to the "big four" PvM lovechildren.

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Originally Posted by Psikie

I am so glad players other than me don't need how to guides to everything AO that can think outside the box.

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OUCH! I was being heavily sarcastic there. I feel the plight of agents and think suggesting they use weapons that they have absolutely zero support for to improve their PVM damage in contrast to improving their most supported weapon to give them PVM damage is a rather stupid idea. (It wasn't my idea just to be clear).

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Originally Posted by sultryvoltron

An Agent using FP Crat cannot charm as high level mobs as a Crat.

As such, why bother with an Agent who is trying as hard as possible when you could simply get a Crat who would do more damage, offer more value to a team, and be able to get better pets when available?

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That is correct as far as charms go, but the reasons people get crats usually has nothing or very little to do with their DD. Debuffs is their primary raid usage, boss calms being 2nd. Everything else is gravy and extra stuffing on top.

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Originally Posted by Gatester

A crat without pets will outdamage an agent without pets.

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Sometimes tangents get started in threads that just go way over the top, this is one of those times.

Now I don't know how you might play an agent but i've done part of your homework for you and it only took 15min. Some raw numbers for you...

Agent angst of xan (AAX) v Sol anger of xan (SAX) DD comparison. This is versus high ac ICC punching bag. Both self buffed.

Reg hits AAX- 2200, crits 3800 with 2600 att rating. fling 2200 AS 9k
Reg hits SAX- 1900, crits 2800 with 3200 att rating. burst 3-6k FA 15k

Very situational, agent has faster recycle on fling and crits a lot more than sol, but over time it's not too hard for burst/FA to compensate for that. Perk wise the agent has higher dmg perks by a lot, HOWEVER, the soldiers are faster recycle so again over time soldier perks are greater. The agent has DoTs, and proc DoTs that do bridge this gap somewhat. This is just using standard stuff from Auto.

Now I get it that some posters claim the sky is falling because the squeaky wheel gets the oil, but saying crats without pets OD Agents is just too much. The DoTs, perks, procs, gnat's, concentration, prof ring, and dd buff nanos way OD's plenty of toons. The problem for agents is being able to survive the aggro they steal.

Similarly equiped Sol will OD agent of course but it's really no where near the level that some of the posts here claim.

Agents are not nearly as bad as some posters want to portray, fp enfo/doc/advy/crat/sol/mp all have valid uses solo. Mimic whatever and buff, then true prof to mimic 2nd profession and buff again makes for some fantastic combos solo and for a team to have 2 extra profs buffs available fyi. So yea at times that versatility would make agents more desirable in teams in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Psikie

That is correct as far as charms go, but the reasons people get crats usually has nothing or very little to do with their DD. Debuffs is their primary raid usage, boss calms being 2nd. Everything else is gravy and extra stuffing on top.

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imagine you have a team with doc/enf/crat/sold. you have 2 spots to fill. i dont know about you, but i'd gladly take another crat for DD over an agent that gets OD'd by crat pets alone :P but of course i'm one of those silly people that prioritizes getting the content done over thinking outside the box.

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Originally Posted by Psikie

That is correct as far as charms go, but the reasons people get crats usually has nothing or very little to do with their DD. Debuffs is their primary raid usage, boss calms being 2nd. Everything else is gravy and extra stuffing on top.

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When choosing professions purely for their damage capabilities, who would EVER pick an Agent?

Frankly I wouldn't pick an agent for any role in a team ... ever. Hell, I might have to eat my words. I would probably even take a second enfo for DD role over an agent if those were my choices.

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Originally Posted by Psikie

Very situational, agent has faster recycle on fling and crits a lot more than sol, but over time it's not too hard for burst/FA to compensate for that. Perk wise the agent has higher dmg perks by a lot, HOWEVER, the soldiers are faster recycle so again over time soldier perks are greater. The agent has DoTs, and proc DoTs that do bridge this gap somewhat. This is just using standard stuff from Auto.

Now I get it that some posters claim the sky is falling because the squeaky wheel gets the oil, but saying crats without pets OD Agents is just too much. The DoTs, perks, procs, gnat's, concentration, prof ring, and dd buff nanos way OD's plenty of toons. The problem for agents is being able to survive the aggro they steal.

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I have several issues with what you said.

1) You said you did the homework for "us". "We" went and did LotV and checked DD. It's a far cry above unknown unknowns of an irrelevant prof on test server. Have some respect.

2) Where did soldiers come into this?

3) I guess we Agents can probably OD a crat, but the doc schooled me pretty hard and DoTs are only 1224 dps with slow and hardcapped cast. Crat nukes aren't quite there, but they get much more AR and they have LE procs they could use for DD. It's a legitimate idea.

4) Agent DoTs OD plenty of toons? What? iDC is 431 per 3 seconds. Are you thinking of Grim Reaper which is 136 every 4 seconds? Are you assuming we're in mimic doc like the rest of the world, and using Scythe B and Sentient Nano Gorger? I think you're exaggerating this.

5) Our prof ring is a 50 evade buff and 50k detaunt. What?

6) Are our perks really that far above support proff perks? Everyone gets champion lines. We're putting CS, SU/APS/PPS/FTF, and Called Shot against Pistol Mastery perks. Given the recycle time on these, I don't think we're looking at a huge dd boost.

7) Pretty much the only time an Agent steals aggro is by CHing in a SL instance. You're using stealing aggro here to imply that we do insane DD. Sneaky.

8) Nobody here is saying Agent is useless. As long as the Agent doesn't need loot, we can all agree an Agent is better than an empty team spot. >.>

9) You solo things in FP advy? Wtf?

HOWEVER
Because I'm awesome, I'm going to try to test 3) and 6). If you get there before I do, by all means post results.

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Originally Posted by srompu

HOWEVER
Because I'm awesome, I'm going to try to test 3) and 6). If you get there before I do, by all means post results.

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willing to bet good money my crat without pets can od your agent!

After clicking on your auno link, there's no way I'm taking any kind of bet on that xD
You've got more +damage in that than I have fully buffed on agent.

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Originally Posted by Lazy

willing to bet good money my crat without pets can od your agent!

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Willing to bet good money that my 217 Engi can OD any 220 Agent.

Look the point i'm stating is still the same. Agents are mid range DD for a support prof. The attraction of agents in a team for me is their versatility. Sure you can find a better DD spot or a better healer spot. But I have only played with 4 agents regularly and all 4 where perhaps exceptional PLAYERS. I would take a good player regardless of prof over an avg player with a "preferred" profession. Depending on the raid/instance you could probably take 5 sol with 1 doc or 5 shade with 1 advy and still be just fine if everyone knows how to juggle aggro. That's not the point. I am disputing the theory that agents are worthless in a team scenario. Yes a lot of AO encounters can be defeated simply by applying more DD, the means to an end. That's fantastic I don't begrudge that style of play. I also don't discriminate profs. I can find a use for any class in a team, and that's what I find challenging and fun.

Now that is not to say there are some avg or below avg agents/buff whore toons out there, however I have played with some really good agents in my time and I have seen what they are capable of doing.

I have played on same side and against you sromp and lazy on BS/towers and for pvp I give you guys straight A's, but I think pvm wise I think you are selling agents short. Maybe agents are not a preferred prof but more of a band aid fix to a given situation, but AO is a rock-paper-scissors type game and all the X's and O's do have a place.

Sadly ive been too busy twinking a 200 soldier and getting a freshly (few days ago) 220 NT geared for PVP, so I have been unable to actually do the damage tests like I said for now. I will get to em, and test server does allow me to get EVERY nano for EVERY profession on an agent so I should not have too much trouble and I can handle getting most of the DD gear I would need hopefully.

Did not expect to have two major projects come up so suddenly, delaying all my testing :p

I just need to ask are you trolling Psikie? :/
anyway Agent is not mid range DD for a support prof and i got no idea what support even a agent will bring to a team. I tested pretty much every setup out there on bjorkvin in pvm/pvp etc and agent is still very low pvm dmg even my 216 mp OD my 220 agent when i were useing full crit setup. and whats the point gearing a agent for pvm nobody will invite you to a team anyway well not a decent team atleast. I think you should just lvl your 205 agent to 220 and go lft and see for your self if you get any team invite :)

I still don't understand what is "midrange" about Agent DD when "support profs" that provide MORE SUPPORT also do MORE DAMAGE.

Agents are garbage at providing support, garbage at doing damage, and just plain garbage in general. The only thing they are good for is buffing. I'd rather take a pet enigma dog than an agent, since at least the dog won't roll on loot after being carried.

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Originally Posted by Sentrum

I just need to ask are you trolling Psikie? :/

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he is.

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Originally Posted by srompu

8) Nobody here is saying Agent is useless. As long as the Agent doesn't need loot, we can all agree an Agent is better than an empty team spot. >.>

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Originally Posted by drainbamage

Agents are garbage at providing support, garbage at doing damage, and just plain garbage in general. The only thing they are good for is buffing. I'd rather take a pet enigma dog than an agent, since at least the dog won't roll on loot after being carried.

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Wow, is this what the game is like nowadays? :(
As an old-timer, it feels like the game has become seriously unfriendly.

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Originally Posted by bbar

Wow, is this what the game is like nowadays? :(
As an old-timer, it feels like the game has become seriously unfriendly.

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It's the cold hard reality of terrible PVM balance. AO is seriously broken and anyone who plays a useless, marginalized profession will suffer until things change.