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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
I personally believe that changing how a whole set of items works (eg, crit scopes) is a change to game mechanics, not simply changes to items. It not only affects an entire class of items, it also affects the weapons they modified and the strategies employed by characters. I consider the change of crit scopes to be just as much a change in game mechanics as the change to Adventurers.
I don't. As I posted in reply to Waffen, breed/profession being equal 2 players that invested in the skills needed to use a scope would have to spend the same IP to acheive the same skill amount. That was not true of Adventurers and multiranged. That sets that situation further apart from item balancing.
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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
That IP is not gone. Yes, you absolutely have to give up the benefits you received when you reset. You don't believe me? OK, use a single skill IPR point to reset your body development and place all that IP into swimming. Sure you can swim like a fiend, but is that new swimming ability free? Of course not! That is ridiculous.
To take a more realistic example, let's say you're a doc and you want to change from MA to Rifle, so you reset MA and Phys Init to raise up Rifle and Aimed Shot. Have you lost something? You bet. You've lost your MA. You keep going on about the past benefits of IP expenditure. If I spend 100 levels maxing MA, then yes, I get benefits over those 100 levels. That MA skill helps me level and helps me get loot. But if I had not spent it on MA, I could have spent it on Rifle. And guess what, I would have gotten levels and loot. You write as if there is a huge advantage gained outta nowhere during the reset. But that's just not true.
Skills carry varying importance according to the level of the character. A trader, for example, doesn't have to invest in SenseImp until they can use their first calm. At that point, they pick up another nanoskill to invest in. The skills importance is further modified by the activities you participate in. To stick with the Trader example, Calms are important but take on a vital importance when the trader starts teaming with in situations where the teams are facing mobs way above their level. Now the trader that focuses on calming will have to begin sacrificing to maintain his calming abilities. But at the same time, because he's reached a level where he's primarily teaming, weapon skills become of less importance because he's not relying as heavily on them for survival (his team makes up the difference).
That's where reset points begin to niggle me. Someone that focused throughout on nanoskills and had a more difficult time doing something than someone that focused on weaponskills now has a reward...until that person that focused on weapon skills resets their skills, investing in nanoskills becoming equally effective as them. Same goes for weapons. A Manex is not a gun for a newbie with low ranged init. But it becomes a very viable weapon at higher levels for anyone with good ranged init. So you'll see a someone wielding something like a shotgun until a certian point, where they reset and grab a Manex.
That's what I mean by IP being gone and you can't take back the benefits. A person took an easier route because of reset points to reach the same point as someone that did not and ends up equally effective. And the arguement that they could do it too isn't valid. This particular method plays into the hands of alts and twinks because they have the resources that others do not.
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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
ok, I misunderstood the following quote: "Funcom proved we won't be seeing another Adventurer multiwield change again when they rebalanced Atrox/Nanomage attributes." I thought you meant to say that because they didn't give one there, it proved they would never give another. But if you mean to say that you think all the other changes in the future will be as seamless and not cause disadvantages to characters, I think you're a major optimist.
That's because you view changes to item as mechanics and I do not. But we won't have a situation where 2 character of equal breed/profession spending spending differing amounts of IP on the same skill to achieve the same skill amount.
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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
An RPG is about playing a role. If you rely simply on items and skills to play that role, then you will always lack individuality. Gear does not equal personality. I'll tell you this much, my characters are characters regardless of whether they wield an AR or an SMG. I consider resetting points and changing guns the same way I would changing my clothes. Sure, it may be a different style, but it's not a different character or persona.
If the game responded more to the Role portion, I'd agree. But it cannot because there are too many roles being played and not enough people to respond to them. The same thing is true of single player crpgs. There is 1 person playing the role (you) but nobody to respond to it at all. So what makes 2 characters different in the same game? The sum of the skills and abilities on the characters they create. If you hand 2 people each a copy of Morrowing, I'll guarantee you when they complete the game neither's character will resemble the other.
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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
No, I mean mechanics. I think changing an entire line of items, thereby affecting entire lines of weapons, thereby affecting entire strategies for IP expenditure and combat... qualifies as "mechanics" not "items". By your argument, I'm sure Notum Wars towers and such are simply "items", but I consider that as another change in mechanics. It has seriously changed the effectiveness of certain skills, it has introduced a whole new game-play style for PvP, it has made PvP from something that gave very little personal gain to something that directly affects all players. Pretty major changes for just "the addition of some items".
The Notum Wars is a special circumstance. It did change the mechanics of the game. It did so by adding new items that affect the mechanics of the game through bonuses. So no argument from me on that. Notum Wars did change the mechanics of the game.
But I do see the Notum Wars rewarding those that did choose to invest in certain skillsets and those people deserve a chance to enjoy that reward while the rest of us catch up. Those PvP gurus out there deserve to be the PvP gurus they are while we earn the right ourselves to do the same. Not reset some skills, copying their skillset, and negate that part of their advantage. The people that invested in the skills necessary to make the tower items deserve the same. As do those that already have the skills necessary to place the items. It's like the Fixers and the Fixer Grid. Those people that were already Fixer and already had the skills needed to access the fixer grid got to enjoy their access to the Fixer Grid while everyone else had to catch up.
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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
What I'm questioning has absolutely nothing to do with RPG. But it has everything to do with MMORPG. Skills are plastic and mutable in this mythos. You can go from clueless to competent and back to clueless in moments by changing implants at a terminal. A soldier putting down an Assault Rifle and picking up an SMG does not violate my worldview in the least. Even things like a doc forgetting MA and picking up a rifle can easily be explained with this world's technology.
Yes, in most classic Pen and Paper RPG systems, you can not unlearn skills and then learn others. I'll agree with you there. But then again, in those systems, the rules don't change on a monthly basis (unless your GM is wacky). I still think that in a skill-based MMORPG where the rules change, the stats on items change, new and different content is added that changes people's priorities, and the entire game evolves demands some adaptability for characters.
It demands some adaptability for characters. I've said deep down I'm opposed to it completely (call me a Purist RPG Player) but can accept it if people earn that adaptability. What's being argued here isn't that at all. What's being argued here is the fact people want it for free. IP reset points are completely wrong for that because they cause an instant transition to the new skill. A Complete Reset Point is extremely wrong for that because they cause an instant transition to a completely different character. So long as the transition is instantaneous, there has to be a price of some sort to prevent more damage being done to the game than benefit done to the playerbase as a whole.
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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
I think that is a drastic overstatement. If every enforcer over 161st wielded a Queen Blade, they would all still be different individuals with different personalities. If you don't believe me, talk to several and ask yourself if they are cookie cutters incapable of roleplay. If every person in the game wielded the same weapon, I would still be an individual. I'm starting to wonder why you are bothering playing an RPG, if you think that your gear is your personality.
Do you honestly enjoy running through Omni Entertainment and seeing someone that looks almost exactly like you except for the minor differences of breed/face/size? Everyone wearing the same armor or wielding the same weapon? If you have "names above characters" turned off, that you can lose sight of a friend in a crowd? That's not caused by a lack of items in the game that are viable. That's caused by it being too easy to switch to whatever item is perceived to be the best. That's the loss of identity I'm talking about. And its not very appealing to someone that just got to the game either.
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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
I also think you underestimate people's desire for being different. Right now people already have the ability to all use the same weapon, but they are not. Sure Total IPRs would make it easier, but I think you do a lot of people a disservice if you think everyone will instantly reset to be completely the same. There are hundreds of people in this game who do not take the most popular or most efficient path. You said you were one of them. I am one of them. That wouldn't change a bit if I had the occasional Total IPR. In fact, that would give me the ability to experiment with even more bizarre breed/profession/gear combos.
Knowing that I'm a strange person I automatically exclude anything that I do from estimates :cool:. I will purposely go out of my way to be different. But I'm not a "follower". I don't want to be a "leader". Most people in these games, however, will be a follower if they
[list=1][*]Think that by using xxx weapon with yyy armor they will gain +10 xp/s more than if they did something else[*]Have an easy means to change to xxx weapon and yyy armor[/list=1]
Quote:
Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Again, you look at the crit scope change as if it was just a minor item change. I look at it as a change in a complete line of items, which affected complete lines of crit-reliant weapons, which affected complete character concepts and IP allotment strategies. When combined with the PvP crit nerf, this is a HUGE change in game mechanics for many characters. Calling that a simple item change, that can just be ignored, seems very short-sighted to me.
Everyone using a crit scope score a critical hit less often equally. And they still score a critical hit more than people that don't use a criti scope at all. That's why I find it to be an item change. It did not single anyone out.
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Originally posted by Curmudgeon
I think FunCom has been realizing that this game is an evolution. That things change, that people get bored with the same characters doing the same things, that people need to change and adapt their characters as the game evolves. I think that's why they initially added IPRs, and I think that's why they need to add the ability to get more IPRs. I actually hope they do put in a mechanism for earning single-skill IPRs. But I completely understand why people are wanting an occassional Total IPR, when things like crit nerfing and Notum Wars change how the gameis played for many people.
And as I said, I think Funcom realizes that reset points have to be controlled. The evidence to suggest that is there to support that inference as much as it is to support yours (more so I think). Funcom could have easily made reset points infinite, made them increase 1 with every level, automatically give one with every patch or a host of other easy solutions. Far easier than letting threads like this take up forum space and force someone like Cz to read them. But they didn't do any of that. The wags out there will say it's because they don't listen or care. But everyone knows that's jsut bitterness talking. Because while our enjoyment is at stake, it's their lives and their future plans that are at stake for them.
All in all, pretty good arguements, Curmudgeon. I don't agree with them for the reasons I stated. But they're far better than most the ones people have been throwing out (thinly veiled or blatant flame attempts)