Review: Melle professions

There is only problem with pvp atm, but these are not Triple's, not Cocoon nerfs, its that many people have problem with adjusting to enviroment without Backyards, where there is nowhere to run, so you will eventually die. Those that still do city pvp, know that almost nothing change in it after LE went live. Its dominated with the same proffesions as it was before. +NTs. Despite all the real or imaginary nerfs and changes to mechanics.

Throwing everyone in one bag such as "melee" leads to nothing. I could make thread "tradeskillers need love in pvp" in the same manner :p

I can't see how there is any reason to argue. Fact is that some professions (enfs in particular) are doing worse than others = PvP is unbalanced. It's very simple. Other profession like mine (engi) might need fixes too, but we have to start with the ones having the biggest problems. Currently ranged is by far superior to melee, so that needs fixing. Stop trying to defend your own profession and look at it objectively, if you want to claim intelligence, knowledge etc. that shouldn't be so hard to do.

Melee should of course be at a disadvantage when it comes to hitting/catching a ranged, but they shouldn't have to. As far as I see it we pvp for objectives mainly (BS, Towers) so melee's job is to make it impossible for ranged to attack those objectives without getting in melee range. In other words if an enf parks himself defending a position or attacks one..ranged should have trouble defending/attacking that same objective. They shouldn't be able to bring down an enf at all, unless it is a focused team effort, on the other hand enfs are limited by range and can't just run around killing everyone. This is a ROLEplaying game, and those roles should apply to pvp as well, you can't expect everyone to be able to kill everyone else. In that case we need to have identical attack/defense values, and then we are talking about a FPS type game.

It should be a battle between tanks with everyone else supporting, that is one "army" fighting another as teams, not just 1on1 random ganking. I don't care if I cant solo kill anyone as ranged engi, what I care about is my team winning the battle. If I want 1on1 action I'll play a FPS game instead.

Just my 2 cents..coming from someone who has never PvP'ed, so it might be stupid, but at least it's objective.

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Originally Posted by deniska

It proves that 18% proc isn't that fantastic in PvP as people tend to think. Do the reading around the forums and you'll see that I far from being the only one who says that.



Ofc not, playing a profession for 2.5 years does. On the other hand being a loud clueless badmouth doesn't make you any more knowledgeable for sure. There's definitely people around who can questing my knowledge of the game, be sure though, you are far from being in that list.

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Deniska... I have never said this regarding you before... And i dounbt i ever will again.. so treashure it...
*chough*

QFT

I gladly trade my defence/healperks for AMS for a week, just to try:)

ah yes and I want my Fast attack to hit for 15k plx:)

Knekt 220/20 keep
Hobbys: Caping B at BS
Pandegrinding

Edit: Oh ya Thank you for 17.XX :)

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Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick

Your arguments are ... er wait what arguments? Level? Playtime? Equipment? You're my hero... Dude - no one saw you flagged. No one saw you on Battlestation. So start playing the game , then you will have credibility to even post in thread like this - because atm its below zero.

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QFT

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Originally Posted by knekt

ah yes and I want my Fast attack to hit for 15k plx:)

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Lol, wtb :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by knekt

I gladly trade my defence/healperks for AMS for a week, just to try:)

ah yes and I want my Fast attack to hit for 15k plx:)

Knekt 220/20 keep
Hobbys: Caping B at BS
Pandegrinding

Edit: Oh ya Thank you for 17.XX :)

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<3

--Steve

Well Ihaveahugenick technically tradeskill engies did get a pvp boost (thats its not really too useful is for duscussion somewhere else :P).

In terms of ranged v melee tho, lets compare specials:

SA 40 sec recharge sucky damage due to rolling damage vs acs

AS cappable to 11sec with some gear (since scopes add a good load of AS this aint too hard) Also way easier to cap on a player.

Dimach 30min recharge (cappable at 5min, difficult to achieve, for mas) Max damage 5-6k in pvp so not capping certian profs.

Full Auto cappable at 11s (also not so easy if dread shark is changed) Is affected (sp?) by evades so not as easily cappable so lets say average damage same as Dimach, but cause of recharge its way better then dimach.

fling ~ fast attack.

Brawl capped at 15 sec, damage of 1-3k in pvp with 10% chance to stun (20% after 2k skill)

Burst cappable at 8s (not so difficult for primary burst users) 1-3k damage in pvp

So the only special that melee maybe got better is brawl for stun chance. But Fauto and AS outpreform Dimach and SA by a fair bit if u ask me, and since this game in pvp has become dominated by specials it gives an advantage. Couple that with the seeming increase in lag leading to more chances of client/server sync issues melee is at a real disadvantage.

naturally AS and FA should be better than sa/dimach ranged has been better then melee since the dawn of time and i don't see why that will all of a sudden change in the future

as for the shorter recharges it's easier to reload your gun then it is for you to recharge your soul as for why sa has 40 second recharge ... well who wants advies to have an 11 second 40% hit? i know changing the subject is bad but melee people with 11s SA/dimach would be kinda insane

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Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick

So you expected sword to have 40m range when you rolled melee? CRY ME A RIVER.

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its not that i expect sword to have 40m range, but i do expect to be able to hit someone running away from me when i am running on top of them. So either give me a sword with 100m range, or fix the damn server code

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Originally Posted by twinkcrat

naturally AS and FA should be better than sa/dimach ranged has been better then melee since the dawn of time and i don't see why that will all of a sudden change in the future

as for the shorter recharges it's easier to reload your gun then it is for you to recharge your soul as for why sa has 40 second recharge ... well who wants advies to have an 11 second 40% hit? i know changing the subject is bad but melee people with 11s SA/dimach would be kinda insane

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Just like people with 11s AS and FA is insane now?

Spare me.

It has been pointed out time and time again that ranged has wonderful 40% instant hit specials. Melee just doesn't have anything that compares.

Dimach has a long recharge, and it doesn't even do a damage for at least one melee profession(where it is instead a heal, with a 1hour recharge on dimach).

Sneak attack isn't a consideration for 2he/2hb since we got shafted from having it.

So you are really comparing someone that can have FA/AS every 11 seconds (And yes the setups that allow both exist, this is an irrefutable fact.) to an idealist situation where, say, a 1he/1hb profession, *might* have dimach and sneak ready to go for a whopping 2 hits, which I might add, won't be ready to throw out again in 11 seconds, unlike your lovely AS/FA (not even counting the normal specials in your setup, be it burst/fling).

And for all those people that love to bring in "real world" aspects to a game that is very much not real world at all, consider that people have survived a bullet to the head, but I challenge you to find one person that survives their head being split in half from a blade (or smashed from a hammer).

well getting as specific as to what part of the body these magical attacks are hitting is a little beyond comparing "real life" to the game.. for one the game does'nt even take into acount which part of the body is hit.. as far as the game cares every hit is in the exact same location.. thats not something easily fixed or balanced since it does'nt even exist in game.

however one thing i can agree on is SA should mirror AS.. why SA has a much longer recharge cap, and checks AC's is beyond me.. so thats one fix i can support.. as far as client/server sync problems ya it's a huge problem in some pvm situations as well.. obviously that needs to be fixed reguardless.. but even if the sync was perfect melee will always be at a disadvantage simply cause a gun can out range a blade,club,fist.. and if you cant hit it.. you can't kill it..

EDIT: actually it might make more sense in the long run to change AS to work like SA does already.. but at any rate i agree it does seem to unfairly disadvantage melee in what most would agree is or should be melee's counter part to ranged aim shot.

enfos are teh suck atm and it makes me sad. the perkline thats enfo only (2hb) is really sad and could/should be fixed up a bit and maybe make enfos actually viable in pvp again.
yeah we did get a 5k absorb which is basically useless....makes a good button to hit when your running away from the agents and soldiers i guess. O_O

*makes ranged enfo*

Alcoydel ftw.

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Originally Posted by knekt

I gladly trade my defence/healperks for AMS for a week, just to try:)
[snip]
Knekt 220/20 keep

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Hmm... Hmm... YES! Learn to play YOUR PROF. Very funny to see keepers wanting to get tms/ams. rrfe+reflect aura+devotional armor = 75%... So you wanna trade cocoon line, good evades, healperks for 5% reflects max?

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Originally Posted by Luiza

The not-so-loved:
Enforcers - no plans
Martial Artists - no plans
Shades - no plans
Keepers - no plans

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1. You forgot teh nerfest prof, advs.
2. Enfs got 5k absorb, MAs got useful shen sticks, keepers got uber shield and shades... Well, shades are teh nerfest.
Problem is not that your prof wasn't lubbed, but that it was lubbed in wrong hole.

P.S.: From the list - only enfos and shades have my sympathy.
P.P.S.: Speaking of lub that incoming - let's wait, I'm still not sure engis/crats/MPs got something useful in 17.3

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Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick

Your arguments are ... er wait what arguments? Level? Playtime? Equipment? You're my hero... Dude - no one saw you flagged. No one saw you on Battlestation. So start playing the game , then you will have credibility to even post in thread like this - because atm its below zero.

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Don't think you qualify for talking about my credibility, all the facts you rely on are nothing but urban legend of "OMG noone seen Deniska ingame". Give it up, noone asked for your opinion, you got no clue what are you talking about, just another random troll...

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Originally Posted by kuznechik

P.P.S.: Speaking of lub that incoming - let's wait, I'm still not sure engis/crats/MPs got something useful in 17.3

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crat lub doesn't seem that useful to me tbh, seems more like a nerf since other pets are getting immunities vs crat, and the new bufs are for guardian and not carlo so...

One thing to bear in mind in this discussion would be that meleê weapons predominantly have higher damage than ranged, and I guess that is supposed to be the balancing factor. Couldn't say if it's balancing enough, I don't have any meleê using characters. But it is a factor.

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Originally Posted by kuznechik

2. Enfs got 5k absorb

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i have really low HP on enfo, compare with enfos, once had an agent shoot right thru 10k of cocoon then capped me...and me wonders y i have cocoon in the 1st place

Well, I'm playing a shade, and in pvp it sucks. A pwm shade sucks in pvp hard, gets a bit better if you train 8 perks in repulsor for pvp, but forget about pwm then. Evades are nerfed too much to be of any use in pvp, low AR on shades is something very bad also (dont mention the SP perkline becouse in pvp until you exec the whole line ur dead 3 times). WTB and improvement to that asap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kuznechik

Hmm... Hmm... YES! Learn to play YOUR PROF. Very funny to see keepers wanting to get tms/ams. rrfe+reflect aura+devotional armor = 75%... So you wanna trade cocoon line, good evades, healperks for 5% reflects max?


1. You forgot teh nerfest prof, advs.
2. Enfs got 5k absorb, MAs got useful shen sticks, keepers got uber shield and shades... Well, shades are teh nerfest.
Problem is not that your prof wasn't lubbed, but that it was lubbed in wrong hole.

P.S.: From the list - only enfos and shades have my sympathy.
P.P.S.: Speaking of lub that incoming - let's wait, I'm still not sure engis/crats/MPs got something useful in 17.3

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1. RRFE is a soldier nano, so using it as an arguement to "learn to play your profession" is ludicrous. At best you can include a graft in an arguement as anyone can use one.

2. Keepers are still easily capped through all the reflects they can get including perks.

3. Our "uber shield" is absolutely useless, had you done *any* homework at all you would see that it is a one handed shield, and *gasp* what's that? KEEPER IS BLOODY 2HE making the shield useless as we do _NOT_ have _ANY_ other weapon option.

4. Our "good evades" apply only to evade-clsc , when will you people GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD that keepers _DO NOT_ have good Dodge/Duck (And on a continuation of that note, the debuffs provided by holymark are 100% checks, so if they land, we didn't need them in the first place)

5. Our healperks consist of _TWO_ profession based and _TWO_ group based (which all cocoon profs have), and have consistantly been proven time and time again despite the thickness of peoples skulls to not be anywhere near 'godlike.'
(And on the note of godlike, people love to throw up examples of a keeper tanking 6 people or some such feat of uberness. I will bet that either this was pre-le when reflects/cocoon weren't hosed, the people didn't have AS/FA to just flat out oneshot cocoon, or the people being tanked were just lousy.)

6. All the offensive power of a Keeper (and any 2he prof for that matter) is in perks. We don't get those lovely 40% instant hit specials, it's all perks, which by the way, have been shown time and time again to be a straight across pass/fail check as opposed to having a real 'chance' to land like regular specials (such as fast attack, fling, burst, brawl, etc) not to mention take considerably longer to execute, easily upwards of 6-10 seconds vs ... well... instant.