New firstaid stims and healing kits

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Originally Posted by monk13

this thread has too much focus on the effect this has on established players and not enough on how this effects newcomers

Edta had a VERY valid point that needs to not be ignored



there are a few things that cause new players to wtfragequit early on
1. they run to the left and dont talk to that guy
2. they're credstarved for the first 3+months of gameplay unless they either buy credits or beg
3. if this change goes through and the normal stims don't stay in shops, they /quit because they can't even afford basic healing

I still remember struggling to afford to purchase implants that were half my level for the first month playing as a froob, if it weren't for the fact that i love ultra difficult and complex problems i would have just quit.

if you do remove the normal stims, something needs to be done in both subway and newbie island to increase the amount of creds new players receive.

if it isn't you will see a lot more logon->create toon->play for maybe 2-6hrs->never login again

in this industry, without retention of new customers marketing is pointless

if you want to really get the most bang for your buck from the new engine, address these issues, please.

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Please explain how the new ones being around makes this worse than before. New ones provide at least 50% more healing pr. credit than the old ones, and do it for less skill requirement. You look at QL125 and say "this is the one I should be buying", well that's wrong. If you look at these new kits you'll see that one that costs the same as one from before, say a ql50 one, it costs me 38600 and a ql125 kit of the old kind costs me 38050, or so. The ql50 kit requires less skill and heals in the first boost 50% more than the present ql125 kit and heals nano at the same time, and removes any debuffs on you. It ALSO heals you to 100% HP, not just 300.

I would conclude it's way better than present.

removing TS req from the nano recharger is pure love for NR8 people :D

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Originally Posted by Edta

Which one is the unfair advantage? That you have to put IP into a nanoskill you don't use for casting nano's or that you don't need all nanoskills to cast your nano's? I still need to up all my nanoskills to cast my nano's, you don't. That's not exactly equal foot.

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That's simply a consequence of profession design approach, not something enforced through poor itemization. Again, some context here. The equality is through the fact that every profession only needs 1 skill to raise to use the new stims instead of some with one and a handful needing 2.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

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Originally Posted by monk13

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Originally Posted by Edta

* New players (without money) don't have a reliable source of stims.

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if you do remove the normal stims

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If you look at these new kits

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How long are you going to keep this up? This is like the third time you answer about kits when I'm talking about stims.

yay for even less ways to beat my 30 MP :)

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Originally Posted by Edta

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How long are you going to keep this up? This is like the third time you answer about kits when I'm talking about stims.

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But it's the same difference, old ones drop and if that's not enough, you can build them from stuff that drops as well. 1 monster part = 25 healthstims, 1 notum chip = 25 nanostims = 25 new uberstims.
We are also going to see a startup experience change that will likely take these things into account. If not, then you'll have your inventory filled with stims about 5 minutes after setting foot in subway. And buying a set of 50 stims, which after all will last a rather long time in my experience with where I'd use stims as a lowbie; mainly TOTW when soloing, which one would hope newbies wouldn't be doing so much with the billions of them we'll get, isn't THAT expensive.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

But it's the same difference, old ones drop and if that's not enough, you can build them from stuff that drops as well. 1 monster part = 25 healthstims, 1 notum chip = 25 nanostims = 25 new uberstims.
We are also going to see a startup experience change that will likely take these things into account. If not, then you'll have your inventory filled with stims about 5 minutes after setting foot in subway. And buying a set of 50 stims, which after all will last a rather long time in my experience with where I'd use stims as a lowbie; mainly TOTW when soloing, which one would hope newbies wouldn't be doing so much with the billions of them we'll get, isn't THAT expensive.

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I didn't do the math tbh, but you did :D. "Masta: new stims are more expensive to buy
Masta: to get the same amount of healing you have to pay 10 times as much"

Which is a lot, obviously. I do use them very often, also in team. The drops in subway are plenty, but those get too low quality pretty fast.

Assuming that new players know how to tradeskill and what things they can combine is not very realistic. Once those from subway are too low and they'd need higher ones they would need to farm monster parts and notum, the latter not being a very common drop. Then what? Waste IP on tradeskills? Go beg on OOC for somebody to make it for you? All this work simply to get a basic supply of healing/ nano regain is not very motivating...
The learning part is fixable... tradeskills are fun and it's good to learn about them. However if everything has to be in the tutorial, the tutorial will be too big, so not sure it will be in there. The farming and IP requirements are harder to fix. Too many changes are required to make this work the way you put it, that wouldn't be worth it.

Either way, a 'current newbie' looking for healing might find the expensive healing stims (which is already a good sign) in the shop (which seems a decent place to look imo). He'd compare their price to his amount of credits and either decide to quit or be really motivated to play :p. A 'future newbie' might be a bit more knowledgeable due to the tutorial, but you can't expect miracles either (a tutorial doesn't turn a newbie into a veteran) so I don't think the situation would be much better.

i'm not against adding in the new stims
and i absolutely love the new kits
but i do not think you should remove the old stims
removing old kits from shop = fine
removing old stims from shop = bad

as you said, the cost per stim will be increased
increasing any cost , at all, regardless of how insignificant an increase you feel it is, is detrimental to the new player experience.

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Originally Posted by Edta

I didn't do the math tbh, but you did :D. "Masta: new stims are more expensive to buy
Masta: to get the same amount of healing you have to pay 10 times as much"

Which is a lot, obviously. I do use them very often, also in team. The drops in subway are plenty, but those get too low quality pretty fast.

Assuming that new players know how to tradeskill and what things they can combine is not very realistic. Once those from subway are too low and they'd need higher ones they would need to farm monster parts and notum, the latter not being a very common drop. Then what? Waste IP on tradeskills? Go beg on OOC for somebody to make it for you? All this work simply to get a basic supply of healing/ nano regain is not very motivating...
The learning part is fixable... tradeskills are fun and it's good to learn about them. However if everything has to be in the tutorial, the tutorial will be too big, so not sure it will be in there. The farming and IP requirements are harder to fix. Too many changes are required to make this work the way you put it, that wouldn't be worth it.

Either way, a 'current newbie' looking for healing might find the expensive healing stims (which is already a good sign) in the shop (which seems a decent place to look imo). He'd compare their price to his amount of credits and either decide to quit or be really motivated to play :p. A 'future newbie' might be a bit more knowledgeable due to the tutorial, but you can't expect miracles either (a tutorial doesn't turn a newbie into a veteran) so I don't think the situation would be much better.

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I'm figuring that in the future we'll have more help for newbies or that the old ones get updated with a description saying it can be combined with a different one.
As for low QL on the ones that drop in Subway, then true, but in that regard the new stims heal much more / QL than the old ones.

There has been some talk about nano/hp stim&treat kit usage. so I Decided to put here some "numbers" about usage of mine. These isnt 100% accurated ... but close enough.

Keeper 220
HP stim Need: Low
Nano stim need: Zero
Hp Kit: Low
Nano Kit: Zero - Low ( Only for rebuffing in garden, really rare)

Fixer 220
HP stim Need: Low - Medium
Nano stim need: Low
Hp Kit: Zero - Low
Nano Kit: Low

Crat 213
HP stim Need: Medium
Nano stim need: Zero
Hp Kit: Medium
Nano Kit: Zero

Shade 220
HP stim Need: Low
Nano stim need: Zero
Hp Kit: Zero - Low
Nano Kit: Zero

Engineer 220
HP stim Need: Low - Medium
Nano stim need: Zero
Hp Kit: Low - Medium
Nano Kit: Zero - Low

Shade 220
HP stim Need: Low
Nano stim need: Zero
Hp Kit: Low
Nano Kit: Zero

Soldier 150 ( Still under work )
HP stim Need: Medium - High
Nano stim need: Medium
Hp Kit: Medium
Nano Kit: Low - Medium

Enforcer 150
HP stim Need: Low
Nano stim need: High
Hp Kit: Low
Nano Kit: Medium

Advy 60 (Totw twink)
HP stim Need: Zero - Low
Nano stim need: Medium - High
Hp Kit: Zero - Low
Nano Kit: Medium - High

Conclusion: For me, it looks like that with the new stims and kits, I have to pay for something I don't need! Mostly i need healing or nano, but not both at same time. If both are needed at same time, it doesn happen often. And it makes me feel like the idea for new stims and kits is pulled out of (Advanced Scent Sensor) hat.

Suggestion: Keep Old Stims in shop! Or even better remove sl tag from sl spindles and put in to a rk shops. ;-)



Sorry for bad engris!

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

Please explain how the new ones being around makes this worse than before. New ones provide at least 50% more healing pr. credit than the old ones, and do it for less skill requirement. You look at QL125 and say "this is the one I should be buying", well that's wrong. If you look at these new kits you'll see that one that costs the same as one from before, say a ql50 one, it costs me 38600 and a ql125 kit of the old kind costs me 38050, or so. The ql50 kit requires less skill and heals in the first boost 50% more than the present ql125 kit and heals nano at the same time, and removes any debuffs on you. It ALSO heals you to 100% HP, not just 300.

I would conclude it's way better than present.

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Reading thru this thread it seems these new stims and rechargers are a great improvement ... you get the benefit of an old ql 125 for the skill of a new ql 50 at the same approx cost as the old ql125. You can tradeskill them from parts or from combining old ones that presumably will still drop in missions if the new ones don't drop. Best of all they work in RK and SL :)

I do have a question I did not see covered so far ...

Does this change impact the "battle-ready" rechargers? Are they eliminated or ?

Thanks for starting this thread, great info :)

Colrain

The battle ready rechargers are still available in the shops, without any changes to them.

for the love of god make this an addition, and don't replace the existing stims and packs.

this is possibly a game breaking move if not implemented correctly. firstly the financial aspect and secondly the IP requirement switch for such items.

pending the fact if these are actually a replacement than an addition. if it is indeed an addition i welcome it and disregard the above section.

Also have froobs been considered in this change?

If they replenish same or more health / nano for same price, I don't see a reason for not removing old one. Think about new players. There is already too much junk in the game.

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Originally Posted by DrUrban

There has been some talk about nano/hp stim&treat kit usage. so I Decided to put here some "numbers" about usage of mine. These isnt 100% accurated ... but close enough.

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glad to see that increased nanocost from rebalance didnt hurt that much after all.

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Originally Posted by Dragocze

If they replenish same or more health / nano for same price, I don't see a reason for not removing old one. Think about new players. There is already too much junk in the game.

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..and if they replace the drops, too, so that stim fiends in subway drop new stims, and mission chests drop new kits, then so much the better. Easy access for lowbies, less junk to lug around for everyone, and a positive change all around.

Oh, and sneak in a change to make the newb island startup stim slightly less useless, or at least have the "collect monster parts" bit at the beach give the new stims and kits at an appropriate skill requirement.

(also, I hope the new stims and kits will be blitzable).

This looks like a much needed credit-sink. The economy (particularly on RK1) needs huge deflation, and high-price vendor items like this will slowly make that happen.

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Originally Posted by Whitey

This looks like a much needed credit-sink. The economy (particularly on RK1) needs huge deflation, and high-price vendor items like this will slowly make that happen.

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This would be a very good argument if it wasn't for newbies/poorbies also needing these stims...

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Originally Posted by Edta

This would be a very good argument if it wasn't for newbies/poorbies also needing these stims...

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Needing?

Since when?

This is a reply to a post that Edta made over in the patch notes thread - Just wanted to move the conversation over in here, since it's really better served in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Edta

2. Prices for new stims are outrageous. There is plenty of people with lack of credits, especially newbies. The shop is where newbies look for stuff. With about 600 First Aid old stims cost about 5 credit/hp to heal and new ones cost about 140 credit/hp. That's an increase of about 2800%! I do understand you want a credit sink. In that case you should design these to be only used by elitists/veterans/rich people and keep the old ones to be used by others. The massive difference in power and the fact that you want to remove old ones from the shops indicates that this is not how they are designed. Maybe they are designed to scare away more newbies with high prizes :p?

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Actually, this change is partly designed to help newer players *make* money - As noted, the old kits/stims are still farmable from whatever used to drop them, and now can be tradeskilled into the new kits. If you don't want to pay the price for the convenience of picking them up in the shop, you can either go farm the old kits/stims you need in order to tradeskill a set of the new stuff *or* just purchase whatever you need from someone else. In addition, as the kits/stims available in the shop don't cover all available QL ranges, the demand for stacks of the old kits/stims in varying QLs will increase, creating a definite market for those who have the patience to go farm the old stuff. =)

(i also disagree on shop items being the first experience players have with kits/stims - versions are given out in the startup areas of the game and some of the first things you run across in the subway are stacks of the old stims; i don't think that in this particular instance we have to worry too much about people being 'scared off' by the prices of the new items =))