New firstaid stims and healing kits

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Originally Posted by Litestrider

Making a sarcastic post "complaining" about "love" to the lovechildren isn't a whine.

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Actually it is because anyone that thinks removing nonsense requirements on items that make ANY profession spend their IP on nonsense skills is a bad thing or a move to give someone love is not thinking at all. Linking love for specific profs to removing TS reqs on a GLOBAL item everyone will want to use isn't anything near a logical association.

The resolve to this is easy ... if people think this is just more lovechild love, then FC should make a whole new skill to use these kits and make EVERYONE spend IP in it to use it. That way, it's equal for everyone ... equally BAD.

Now, as for the stims themselves, the costs seem to balance out their usefulness. It's a smart move IMO ... instead of FC reviewing recharge times for the old stims in rebalance, they have a more focused tool that will be easier to deal with and probably have more application.

Obtena, you've really got to get your sarcasm detector checked out.

Or does the accusation of there being "lovechild" professions, even passingly or jokingly, really bother you that much?

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Originally Posted by Litestrider

Obtena, you've really got to get your sarcasm detector checked out.

Or does the accusation of there being "lovechild" professions, even passingly or jokingly, really bother you that much?

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Reminds me of the sarcastic remark someone made in FwM recently where he was determined the guy was serious even though it was an obvious joke. But hey, like was said earlier, if someone talks about the Devs changing anything he has to jump in and defend it at all costs. :P

Well if these go live before rebalance I can see the following:

S10 Enforcers and MA's just getting a heck of boost from them. The few times my enforcer does die it was often to needing both hp and nano and having to choose one. This removes that issue.

For current MA's in S10 that survive on heals the added hp is just a bonus when they pop one of these. No one is going to cry over that. Of course seeing a twink MA in S10 die will be like super rare.

Over all the S10 impact will interesting. At other levels well I can don't know. I would think Subway twinks will get it easier versus Abmouth. TOTW twinks will clearly benefit. A 60 enforcer that can keep nano up and heal them themselves while chain mongo in a Azzy fight will be much happier.

In Arid Rift these new stims will be great for those times you are nano drained and need to heal. You get a heal and nano enough to cast a heal. Should make surviving those no nano time easier. Dying there is always related to the dang nano draining mobs.

Conclusion: Nice to have a single item for both zones. Nice that it is updated for todays HP/Nano levels. Combining them dumb downs combat and removes one more choice that can be strategic or fatal in PVM and PVP. Will wait till I have several hours of use with these before crying foul or claiming better than sliced bread.

Needing 25% of the number of stims as before is a really nice thing to be sure, though.
Frees up hotbar/backpack room.

I still find it hard to believe there are still people who leave them cluttering the inventory though.
I stuff them all in a pack and put that pack on the hotbar xD

Seems from the last patch rip (18.4.8.5) that the new stims/rechargers will be tradeskillable from the old ones. Which leads me to think old rechargers/stims/coils will still drop in missions to be used a tradeskill items.

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Originally Posted by Maofex

Seems from the last patch rip (18.4.8.5) that the new stims/rechargers will be tradeskillable from the old ones. Which leads me to think old rechargers/stims/coils will still drop in missions to be used a tradeskill items.

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Darkbane and I checked it out on test yesterday.
The old kits and stims can be used in 1 process each.
They combine with healkits in the left field (source) and nanokits in the right (target).
Stacks must be exactly 50 for it to work.
The kits and stims can differ in QL by 15%.
SL kits and stims work the same way, but cannot be combined with RK versions.

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Originally Posted by Obtena

Removing TS requirement is not love to the 'OPed' profs and it's pretty shortsighted and ignorant to think that way. Inability to use relevant QL stims at TL2-4 is a significant issue for enfos' nanopool ... unless of course you like the current trends in the game where everything is OST'ed for you.

TBH, if that's the direction players want in the game, then the requirement should be changed to bomb disarmament or something completely obscure so everyone wastes IP, not just love profs. I can already anticipate how well that kind of 'love' translates to welfare professions.

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Fact is that if you free up IP for people that only spend IP on TS to use rechargers, these people gain in power. If these kits hit together with rebalance this can be accounted for and everything is fine. If these kits hit live with current balance, it unbalances things further.

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Originally Posted by Edta

Fact is that if you free up IP for people that only spend IP on TS to use rechargers, these people gain in power. If these kits hit together with rebalance this can be accounted for and everything is fine. If these kits hit live with current balance, it unbalances things further.

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Sure .. but I don't see the next logical step to claim this is done for the benefit of lovechild profs OR that the change only benefits them. In fact, it's the way it should have always been from the beginning so in a sense, all those professions that only spent IP on TS to use rechargers since forever have been affected by a nerf that whole time and those that naturally raise IP for their nano requirements are the ones that have been enjoying the benefit of that oversight from getting IP-discounted kits and the change to non-TS req'd kits will be transparent to them.

On another note, seriously, what are people going to spend their whole pitance of reclaimed IP on? Trap disarm? This isn't really as unbalancing as you are making it out to sound. It's laughable for anyone to think this is some unstabalizing factor for PVP.

Therefore, its another slap in MP's face. Or there are other profs who cant IP First Aid?

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Originally Posted by lainbr

Therefore, its another slap in MP's face. Or there are other profs who cant IP First Aid?

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MPs can't IP firstaid? Oh well, they have a healpet that's way better than firstaid anyway.

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Originally Posted by Obtena

Sure .. but I don't see the next logical step to claim this is done for the benefit of lovechild profs OR that the change only benefits them. In fact, it's the way it should have always been from the beginning so in a sense, all those professions that only spent IP on TS to use rechargers since forever have been affected by a nerf that whole time and those that naturally raise IP for their nano requirements are the ones that have been enjoying the benefit of that oversight from getting IP-discounted kits and the change to non-TS req'd kits will be transparent to them.

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Are you saying a skill can't have multiple uses?

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Originally Posted by Obtena

On another note, seriously, what are people going to spend their whole pitance of reclaimed IP on? Trap disarm? This isn't really as unbalancing as you are making it out to sound. It's laughable for anyone to think this is some unstabalizing factor for PVP.

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- Before ~150 there is always useful things to spend IP on.
- I heard most TL7 enfo's don't even IP nano pool. If they'd have plenty of IP, they sure would do so.
- Why do you care that you need to spend IP on TS if you have nothing else to spend it on anyway?
- I understood the biggest drawback of the 'OP' 1hb/1he enf is IP shortage
- IF IP actually is plenty that you have nothing to spend it on, that would actually be a design flaw.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

MPs can't IP firstaid? Oh well, they have a healpet that's way better than firstaid anyway.

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Tell me the last time someone alpha'd your first aid stim or snared it a mile behind you?

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Originally Posted by Edta

Are you saying a skill can't have multiple uses?

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No I'm not because it's not relevant.

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Originally Posted by Edta

- Before ~150 there is always useful things to spend IP on.
- I heard most TL7 enfo's don't even IP nano pool. If they'd have plenty of IP, they sure would do so.
- Why do you care that you need to spend IP on TS if you have nothing else to spend it on anyway?
- I understood the biggest drawback of the 'OP' 1hb/1he enf is IP shortage
- IF IP actually is plenty that you have nothing to spend it on, that would actually be a design flaw.

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Good story. Some of that isn't true, out of context or based on your assumptions anyways so I won't bother addressing it. This change isn't made to give enfos love or unbalance PVP in enfo's or advy's favour. I'm going to admit, I don't get where you are going with all this. My point is pretty simple. It's stupid to make professions, ANY profession spend IP on a nanoskill that they don't need for their regular nanos. Profs that do IP TS for their nanos are transparent to the change.

The only thing I see here is people's spite to Enfo's and Advy's rationalized with illogical association to an item requirement. Does that makes sense to you? Honestly? Is a handful of IP propelling ANYONE into a whole new level of awesome? It's not, seriously, no, so stop making it sound like it is.

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Originally Posted by Obtena

No I'm not because it's not relevant.

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But it is relevant. The current use of TS is
A. casting nano's and
B. recharging nano.
If you say "It's stupid to make professions, ANY profession spend IP on a nanoskill that they don't need for their regular nanos." you basically say that B. isn't a valid use of TS which I can only explain by you not wanting skills to have multiple uses.

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Originally Posted by Obtena

Is a handful of IP propelling ANYONE into a whole new level of awesome? It's not, seriously, no, so stop making it sound like it is.

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As soon as you stop sounding like it has no effect at all :p. (Which I guess you sort of have.)


Either way you pulled me into a discussion about side issues. My main issues are
* Health and nano being given by the same thing which takes away a tactical choice. (int. al. more gear based pvp instead of skill based)
* Extra power in current pvm is not good.
* New players (without money) don't have a reliable source of stims.

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Originally Posted by Edta

But it is relevant. The current use of TS is
A. casting nano's and
B. recharging nano.
If you say "It's stupid to make professions, ANY profession spend IP on a nanoskill that they don't need for their regular nanos." you basically say that B. isn't a valid use of TS which I can only explain by you not wanting skills to have multiple uses.

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This isn't about multiple uses for the same skills because that's an undefendable and nonsensical position that's easily put down. No my stance is stronger than that and consequently one that you are avoiding addressing, like because of that fact.

Obviously B is a mistake that's being addressed and should have for a long time because making recharging nano with a TS requirement was an unfair advantage in IP for professions that have TS requirements in their nanos vs. those that don't. Now that's being addressed, it's putting everyone's IP on equal footing for similar benefits.

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Originally Posted by Obtena

This isn't about multiple uses for the same skills because that's an undefendable and nonsensical position that's easily put down. No my stance is stronger than that and consequently one that you are avoiding addressing, like because of that fact.

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Eh, I don't even know what you are saying here. Are you saying my argument doesn't make sense, can't be defended and can easily be put down? I don't see you putting it down, must have missed that. The way a discussion works in my eyes is not by saying my arguments are weak and that your stance is strong, that's just your point of view and not relevant for the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Obtena

Obviously B is a mistake that's being addressed and should have for a long time because making recharging nano with a TS requirement was an unfair advantage in IP for professions that have TS requirements in their nanos vs. those that don't. Now that's being addressed, it's putting everyone's IP on equal footing for similar benefits.

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Which one is the unfair advantage? That you have to put IP into a nanoskill you don't use for casting nano's or that you don't need all nanoskills to cast your nano's? I still need to up all my nanoskills to cast my nano's, you don't. That's not exactly equal foot.
Don't get me wrong: it's fine for me that an NT needs all nanoskills and an enfo doesn't. My point is: it's all part of balance and it's all hooked into each other. Balance doesn't have to be obtained by an equal number of nanoskills you need to max, but it must be obtained on the whole package. This extra IP from not needing to max a nanoskill is one of the millions of things that need to be factored in.

Also, I had enough of this silly discussion. Bye.

I think this is an awesome change. I don't think it will unbalance anything, and even if it did, I wouldn't actually care - I'm far too excited at the prospect of not having to have 10+ inventory or backpack slots filled with goddam healkits/stims/virus scanners etc!

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Originally Posted by Kiwifruits

I think this is an awesome change. I don't think it will unbalance anything, and even if it did, I wouldn't actually care - I'm far too excited at the prospect of not having to have 10+ inventory or backpack slots filled with goddam healkits/stims/virus scanners etc!

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It is indeed very nice change. They should also merge garden keys and combine hhab with ado suite.

this thread has too much focus on the effect this has on established players and not enough on how this effects newcomers

Edta had a VERY valid point that needs to not be ignored

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Originally Posted by Edta

* New players (without money) don't have a reliable source of stims.

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there are a few things that cause new players to wtfragequit early on
1. they run to the left and dont talk to that guy
2. they're credstarved for the first 3+months of gameplay unless they either buy credits or beg
3. if this change goes through and the normal stims don't stay in shops, they /quit because they can't even afford basic healing

I still remember struggling to afford to purchase implants that were half my level for the first month playing as a froob, if it weren't for the fact that i love ultra difficult and complex problems i would have just quit.

if you do remove the normal stims, something needs to be done in both subway and newbie island to increase the amount of creds new players receive.

if it isn't you will see a lot more logon->create toon->play for maybe 2-6hrs->never login again

in this industry, without retention of new customers marketing is pointless

if you want to really get the most bang for your buck from the new engine, address these issues, please.