Tokens raining from the sky

The only token grind in the game is the journey to 1k, where you seem to get fewer tokens per mission. The missions them selves are noticibly shorter however but no matter how you look at it more missions = a grind of some sort.

After this board most players wont need anymore untill the TL7 boards by which time, if you've kept up with doing dailies or pretty much anything else in the game, you'll have way over 2500.

My Trader has 6k+. He had the 1k board before dailies were introduced and has earnt 5k going from 196 - 216 by doing his dailies.

I'm very suprised that there is even a market for tokens.

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Originally Posted by Edta

I agree with Tanana: fixing a grind is not done by skipping it, but by making it more fun or challenging. In the example of tokens one solution could be that higher missions give more tokens. No more mindless killing of green mobs in tons of RK missions, but fewer missions against challenging dark red mobs...

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But, the grind is a lot more then just tokens. Sure if you look at it as "just tokens" then ya we're skipping the grind, but if you be realistic and stop being narrow minded to prove a point you'll realize that tokens is one of many grinds to make a character. Even skipping tokens, for a considerable sum of credits/cash, doesn't mean a character is instantly done or that they've skipped the entire game. It means there's one less mind numbing activity to do per character that would cause people to just say "Screw it" when contemplating making a new toon.

This is an MMO, if people stop making new toons it's bad no matter what way you look at it. Reducing the over all grind, by way of eliminating some smaller grinds entirely, is a good thing in that regard. I don't know about you, but I'm more inclined to keep a subscription active and keep playing if I know I can make a new character to have fun with without being daunted by the countless hours of repetitive grind.

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Originally Posted by Edta

I agree with Tanana: fixing a grind is not done by skipping it, but by making it more fun or challenging. In the example of tokens one solution could be that higher missions give more tokens. No more mindless killing of green mobs in tons of RK missions, but fewer missions against challenging dark red mobs...

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I don't think you get it. Whether you're steamrolling green mobs or chipping away at red ones the problem remains the same. You're grinding the same boring interchangeable mobs in the same boring random missions over and over again to make a counter slowly increase. There is no fun, there is no challenge. The closest thing to challenge when grinding is twinking, which is more about how much money you have than anything else. Because when you get down to it, the combat in this game is incredibly boring, and so anything that is based largely on combat is going to be boring as well. There's little interactivity, mob health is too high compared to damage, etc. This is especially bad for low damage profs.

Nowhere is this problem more apparent then at low levels. You get one boring damage special with an absurdly long cooldown (two if you're lucky) and a handful of nanos, most of which are passive buffs. In an age where MMOs are moving towards fast-paced, dynamic combat, this is supposed to encourage new players to stay and pay?

This isn't something that be fixed with a few number tweaks. It's a fundamental flaw in the game. Either make combat interesting or make it quick and painless. Right now it is neither.

I concur.

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Originally Posted by Siyra

But, the grind is a lot more then just tokens. Sure if you look at it as "just tokens" then ya we're skipping the grind, but if you be realistic and stop being narrow minded to prove a point you'll realize that tokens is one of many grinds to make a character. Even skipping tokens, for a considerable sum of credits/cash, doesn't mean a character is instantly done or that they've skipped the entire game. It means there's one less mind numbing activity to do per character that would cause people to just say "Screw it" when contemplating making a new toon.

This is an MMO, if people stop making new toons it's bad no matter what way you look at it. Reducing the over all grind, by way of eliminating some smaller grinds entirely, is a good thing in that regard. I don't know about you, but I'm more inclined to keep a subscription active and keep playing if I know I can make a new character to have fun with without being daunted by the countless hours of repetitive grind.

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gotta ask what do you do in Anarchy Online?
in Anarchy Online this "grind" means gaming,that gaming is the test where you test your character how does it work,how did you build it how good or bad it is.
but heres a lot and i mean a lot of people saying that this "grind" or these "grinds" which means gaming is bad,it needs to be removed.

(edit) in the past,you know ,when AO was "The Game" you knew that if your character is good then you are a good player also,but that is removed completely from this game now by someone unnamed person,you know,for example when you see a message that summone honored did something defending RK and people are really laughing to him now,just for example,or summone says hey look what i got from Beast ,and people are laughing to him also,since theres lvl1 player who have all items from him now for example.

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Originally Posted by trollingstones

gotta ask what do you do in Anarchy Online?

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I level, I do daily missions, I talk with friends, I camp somethings sometimes, I gather money and gear that I want, I twink, occasionally even PvP. Most of all I enjoy myself.

My idea of grind is different then game.

Game to me is "I play and have fun, even while doing something repetitive like killing NPCs it's fun because of variety offered by different NPCs, team mates, circumstances (buffs running out, pulling to many, etc)"

Grind is "I get to stand here and spawn camp the same mob over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over or do the same task with little to no variation and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... well you get it"

Token grinding is just that, roll missions, go to missions, kill useless weak mobs which offer no challenge (or if I go for higher level have so much HP that it takes forever to kill each mob while still not being in danger of dying), get token. Rinse, repeat x 100.

If you enjoy doing boring, mindless stuff hundreds of times, for every character you happen to roll: you wanna do mine?

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Originally Posted by Siyra

I level, I do daily missions, I talk with friends, I camp somethings sometimes, I gather money and gear that I want, I twink, occasionally even PvP. Most of all I enjoy myself.

My idea of grind is different then game.

Game to me is "I play and have fun, even while doing something repetitive like killing NPCs it's fun because of variety offered by different NPCs, team mates, circumstances (buffs running out, pulling to many, etc)"

Grind is "I get to stand here and spawn camp the same mob over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over or do the same task with little to no variation and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... well you get it"

Token grinding is just that, roll missions, go to missions, kill useless weak mobs which offer no challenge (or if I go for higher level have so much HP that it takes forever to kill each mob while still not being in danger of dying), get token. Rinse, repeat x 100.

If you enjoy doing boring, mindless stuff hundreds of times, for every character you happen to roll: you wanna do mine?

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im sure that you do understand that like i said before and imnot going to list all those good ideas what pople had in their minds,and i really dont want to repeat myself,but people were demanding more challenges they were,they really really were,but what this guy did is just the opposite.

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Originally Posted by trollingstones

gotta ask what do you do in Anarchy Online?
in Anarchy Online this "grind" means gaming,that gaming is the test where you test your character how does it work,how did you build it how good or bad it is.
but heres a lot and i mean a lot of people saying that this "grind" or these "grinds" which means gaming is bad,it needs to be removed.

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The only thing grinding tests is my patience.

You've missed it.

Getting tokens has been a 'grind' in the past, just like many other areas of the game such as Leveling and getting SK/AI.

The token 'grind' has become much less tiresome with the addition of dailies and tokens from other sources such as dread missions, LE, BS, PvP missions ect ect.

Still, in the game today there does exist a small, but boring token 'grind'. As I mentioned above, getting those first 1k tokens for your alt will seem a grind. Lot's of missions, while short and easy, with very little token return per mission.


Now, What I'd like to see is the removal of the grind, by making even more tokens accessible from doing the things that we like to do. Even if it's something your repeating, which lets face it is everything in the game, as long as you have fun doing it it no longer becomes a grind.

This can be transffered to any other 'grind' in the game, make it fun and it stops being a grind.

The last thing you should do is provide a way for people to'skip' the grind. Always makes me wonder if FC will continue to look at ways to make the game more fun in the future if their response to a problem like boring grinds is "Meh, who cares, lets just let them pay to skip content".

When it comes to this argument, and really the whole item shop, i cant help thinking of a little quote from 'The Incredibles'

Syndrome: And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that *everyone* can have powers. *Everyone* can be super! And when everyone's super--[chuckles evilly]--no one will be.

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Originally Posted by Neista

When it comes to this argument, and really the whole item shop, i cant help thinking of a little quote from 'The Incredibles'

Syndrome: And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that *everyone* can have powers. *Everyone* can be super! And when everyone's super--[chuckles evilly]--no one will be.

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Wow, you just hit the nail right square on the head. QFT.

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Originally Posted by Siyra

Token grinding is just that, roll missions, go to missions, kill useless weak mobs which offer no challenge (or if I go for higher level have so much HP that it takes forever to kill each mob while still not being in danger of dying), get token. Rinse, repeat x 100.

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Well, get a team and they do die fast; gives you the fun of working in team. And RK missions do give a lot of variation if you don't always pick same sliders+same area. Alright, they might still not be a challenge because they don't pose a treat, which is probably a problem of doing stuff 'made for' froobs with paid toons. Anyway, there is tons of solutions FC could come with that make you earn tokens in a fun way.

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Originally Posted by Neista

When it comes to this argument, and really the whole item shop, i cant help thinking of a little quote from 'The Incredibles'

Syndrome: And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that *everyone* can have powers. *Everyone* can be super! And when everyone's super--[chuckles evilly]--no one will be.

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Thank you Syndrome, for finding the words I could not find!!!

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Originally Posted by protozo

Tokens used to be a symbol of dedication and hard work (if you can call gaming hard work). Now they are so plentiful that everyone is swimming in them, from dailies to the item store. Their status symbol has been eliminated. For a couple of bucks, you can save thousands of hours of playing time and just buy the tokens from the store. I didn't even pay cash (had points already magically) and I was able to buy 1000 tokens to max mine out. I feel cheated, but compelled to save time.

Oh, and say bye bye to the "token bags" market. People are selling item store token packs, which is akin to ebay credz buying, except the cash goes to Funcom. How wrong is this? Need credz? Pay Funcom some cash, then buy the token packs and sell them on the market! Instant real cash for ingame credz!

Now that everyone has waaaaaay more tokens than they need, how about introducing some more token boards? As long as we're paying cash for power, may as well make the ones with the biggest wallets the ones with the most powerful token board.

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Welcome to WoW-Online.

As i've said, fc just needs to put a "Buy Ao credits" button in the shop. It'd be alot easier.

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Originally Posted by Neista

When it comes to this argument, and really the whole item shop, i cant help thinking of a little quote from 'The Incredibles'

Syndrome: And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that *everyone* can have powers. *Everyone* can be super! And when everyone's super--[chuckles evilly]--no one will be.

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While it's a good quote and has merit, it also has a flaw. It fails to account for the fact that there is a lot more to a characters success then just something like tokens. It requires a lot more effort after the token grind in order to be "viable" at end game.

If the goal of "the majority" (whom we've yet to find but some people swear are here) is to PvP then they'll want to be at the top of their game. The best gear, the highest level (for their PvP range) the most tokens etc.

Selling tokens may remove the "super" by making everyone "super" with tokens but it most certainly does not remove anything else. Tokens is one of many grinds, and it's one that has been easy from the get go.

So everyone could be "super" with tokens on their own accord. If you have your 2500 board I can get one too. Which means you were never really super to begin with you were just arrogant and flaunted something that wasn't special. People have idolized the grind, they've gilded it where there was nothing to gild.

Token grinding was never hard, it was never special to have a bunch of tokens, and yet here we are; with people crying like it's the end of the world because tokens are easy to get. Why do you care? What's it to you that others can buy tokens?

If you didn't idolize it in the first place, if you didn't flaunt it as some sign of superiority in the first place, you wouldn't think anything of it that others can have it to.

That you try to associate token grinding with being "super" only puts more proof behind my argument, you think having tokens makes you special. They don't.

Move on.

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Originally Posted by Siyra

Token grinding was never hard, it was never special to have a bunch of tokens, and yet here we are; with people crying like it's the end of the world because tokens are easy to get. Why do you care? What's it to you that others can buy tokens?

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It violates a fundamental roleplaying aspect to the game. Tokens, and thus tokenboards, were a reward for assisting your side. Now there's this great magical box that gives you tokens in exchange for ... something that doesn't exist on Rubi-Ka.

In a sense, they magically appear on your character for reasons that cannot be explained within the realm of an mmoRPG <---- notice what is capitalized.

It also trivializes the role playing aspect of helping out your side. If you can't be bothered to give a little assistance to the corporation that employs you, or to the collective good of the groups that fight that corporation, then why should you get the same rewards as those who do? All because you asked your Fairy Godmother for a tokenboard? Ok Cinderella...

Also, just to throw this in there, in-game-store buyable neck item upgrades for Neutrals please.

What role play? You think going to a mission and killing a few monsters, or neutral/clan sided human helps your side?

It was a flimsy excuse for RP to begin with.

Further: role playing can mean something as simple as taking the role of a character that is not yourself. Playing the role of another. It doesn't mean that everything is a story or interacts with a story, this isn't a novel, this is a game.

Source

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Originally Posted by Dictionary

1 chiefly Psychology the acting out or performance of a particular role, either consciously (as a technique in psychotherapy or training) or unconsciously, in accordance with the perceived expectations of society as regards a person's behaviour in a particular context.

2 participation in a role-playing game.

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Simply by playing we are role playing and fulfilling the RPG part of MMORPG.

As I'm not a real fan of the item shop (I'd rather see it being taken out again) the tokens and XP stims I can live with, maybe even with the portable bank and GMS (even if they used to be some profession specific.. tools).
But, as stated more and more again, I think people at Funcom should really think again about the VP, Grid and, in the futrure, the level boosts.

Going all the way to 220 is not just all about grinding, it's an MMORPG, you interact with people, form teams, and, tadaa, something magic happens: you might even learn to play your profession, and you might even have fun!

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Originally Posted by Siyra

Selling tokens may remove the "super" by making everyone "super" with tokens but it most certainly does not remove anything else. Tokens is one of many grinds, and it's one that has been easy from the get go.

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Thing is: they're not just doing it with tokens, but with nearly everything. Daily (alien and normal) make leveling sooo much easier. AI 30 is not an accomplishment anymore. I'm proud of being a lvl 200 froob (mind you, I merely enjoined the journey then going for the end-goal!), but I got the feeling soon people will get a lvl 200 froob by giving a burst of speed stim to an NPC every day...

Problem is: everybody wants to be super. So the question is: Is it the grinding people that live in an imaginary world were they think the stuff they have is super or is it the lazy people that want to have the stuff without working for it. I think the answer to that question depends partly on what kind of person you are yourself :p.

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Originally Posted by Edta

Problem is: everybody wants to be super. So the question is: Is it the grinding people that live in an imaginary world were they think the stuff they have is super or is it the lazy people that want to have the stuff without working for it. I think the answer to that question depends partly on what kind of person you are yourself :p.

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It's neither . . .

I really don't see why it's hard for people to get their head around the whole concept that skipping content in anything is bad. The items that we gain in game should be earnt, if FC deem the grind too much for certain items then make it easier to do, don't cut it out alltogether.

I'd like to know which items people that are happy about the Item shop, and what it can give you in terms of money, are AGAIST appearing. Make your list and then think of the reasons why you don't think they should be available to buy with real money.

Means and co. have said that they will not sell power for money, yet have allowed people to buy tokens for the token board (arguabaly the most powerful item in game) and vp for Ofab (again, very powerful, endgame items).

They've defended this with the arguement that the items sold in the shop will make you no more powerful than any other 220/30/70...so where do you stop with that? Full sets of combined would make you no more powerfull than a 220, wierd nano's and GA is a bit of a grind unless your lucky, Beast armor (you know the real stuff), weapon upgrades, RBP, pioneer backpack.

Give me a reason why these shouldn't appear for sale?